Asian Elephants in Europe 2021

Pongo said:
Everyone who builds right now needs to integrate a part for a bachelor group to solve the problem of the many young bulls. Since breeding is slowed down it can be that Lodz has to wait some years before getting a herd.
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Maintaining a bachelor herd is different to what EAZA has intended to change which is to leave growing male calves as long as possible close to their maternal group. Right now, the bulls are sent away when they are 6-8 years old which is unnatural and too young (where bulls start forming bachelor groups in their early teens and their maternal group indicates it is time to leave the security of the herd.

Collections will be needed going forward to keep solely bachelor bull groups indefinitely as well as non reproductive cow elephants in older age.
 
I've said it before, but honestly holding long term bachelor herds isn't that bad, in my mind. Especially with larger groups (4-5+ bulls) there is generally constant activity between animals sparring, interacting with their environment, and generally being rowdy males, plus an enclosure full of tusked males is a very impressive sight, arguably even more so than a herd with calves. In addition, there is generally no need to worry about herpes, especially once all the animals hit 10+ years old, and as mentioned by others here, most elephant bulls will get along fairly well as long as there is clear age or size differences between them, especially in groups with 3 or more males.

Of course musth does incur some challenges, especially with certain individuals, however in any facility worth its salt, this is something that can be dealt with easily enough.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Maintaining a bachelor herd is different to what EAZA has intended to change which is to leave growing male calves as long as possible close to their maternal group. Right now, the bulls are sent away when they are 6-8 years old which is unnatural and too young (where bulls start forming bachelor groups in their early teens and their maternal group indicates it is time to leave the security of the herd.

Collections will be needed going forward to keep solely bachelor bull groups indefinitely as well as non reproductive cow elephants in older age.
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Well, this is a general zoo issue that many species are leaving - somtimes much - earlier than they would in the nature. It's also not natural that elephants live in non related groups and most Asian herds don't consist of more than six individuals. There's a lot work for the studbook keeper to get everything sorted out - with the limited space and the issues with old non-related elephants this will certainly last a decade and probably even longer.

@Hyak: I am not too keen on bachelor groups to be honest. In Osnabrück Shanti and Sharukh did not get along with another too well, one was always suppressed by the other (I think Sharukh by Shanti) and under permanent pressure. It was a bit shocking to see that both left to the next bachelor group together again - in the meantime they are finally separated. It might be nice to watch as there definitely was always action but it was only wanted by one of the elephants...
 
Pongo said:
@Hyak: I am not too keen on bachelor groups to be honest. In Osnabrück Shanti and Sharukh did not get along with another too well, one was always suppressed by the other (I think Sharukh by Shanti) and under permanent pressure. It was a bit shocking to see that both left to the next bachelor group together again - in the meantime they are finally separated. It might be nice to watch as there definitely was always action but it was only wanted by one of the elephants...
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That is the issue, one old bull, and then two younger bulls who are the same age and size. That is a situation where conflict could breed. If they had another two bulls there, one younger than the two boys, and the other older than the two, but not as old as Luka, they likely wouldn't have had any of the issues with one male being suppressed. Of course they still might have to manage them in two different social groups at times, however that it's just the nature of things.
 
Mai Thai said:
1. Borneans and hybrids are barred from breeding
2. Europe is phasing out borneans
3. Sumatran Elephants are only allowed to breed within their subspecies because they have their own SSP
4. Sumatran hybrids are all on phase out and are barred from breeding
5. The EAZA has divided their elephant into three categories, the first is the Mainland SSP. This includes the Indian, Sri Lankan, and Malayan subspecies. The second is the Sumatran elephant SSP. Third is borneans and hybrids, which are barred and on phase out.
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This is good news. On an elephant keepers conference in Howletts in 1999, I brought this issue up, and the EEP Asian elephant studbook keeper/coordinator replied "There are no subspecies of Asian elephants" which surprised me, and I guess, the rest of the audience.
 
Hyak_II said:
Nice to hear of another pregnancy! As much as I hate to say it though, I cannot get excited about a single pregnancy at Pairi Daiza until they get rid of Po Chin. He is their sole breeding male,and along with being not particularly genetically valuable, he is subjectively one of the ugliest bulls in Europe (probably only his uncle, Gandhi, is uglier), and moreover, his genetics seem to be very dominant, so all of his calves look like him as well. God I wish they would move him into a non breeding situation. At bare minimum he seems to produce more cow calves, so fingers crossed for a little cow calf for the pair!
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Well you are right his genes are more dominant as shown in this photo of Mala and Sayun, but why would you say that he should be moved to a nonbreeding situation that's like saying Sundara who is the niece of Po Chin, Asha, Kina, or Anak all half sisters through their father Alexander should not be breeding because they themselves are not genetically valuable. Along with Nikolai who is the father of 18 calves with only two that did not survive and he is now at Munster in a breeding situation wouldn't he overly represented, while Po Chin is only fathered serval calves with five of them alive today.
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Jurek7 said:
I noticed that several elderly Asian cows died about a year after moving to a new exhibit.

Can anybody with knowledge of many elephant lives, comment is it something regular? I can imagine that an elderly elephant is stressed by new surroundings (even much better ones!) and does not adapt.
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Its not unusual, and they dont even have to be old. Theres a number of elephants who couldnt adapt for different reasons, like being mobbed by elephants in the new place, or actually missing their old previous keepers etc. I think this has somehow been neglected for many years, and especially when elephants are moved for "welfare reasons" it seems theres less "follow-up" later. A total neddless suffering.
 
I am very surprised why no zoos in Europe want to take young bulls. For me it is an obvious idea for a zoo which wants to raise popularity and keeps no elephants.

First, think which animal is the biggest and most popular - the elephant. Second, think about minimal expense needed - zoos have always complained that a herd multiplies the expense but proportionally does not add the popularity. So build a simple exhibit for 2-3 bull elephants. It is significantly cheaper, and takes less space, than for a breeding herd of elephants.

So, a kind of a zoo which 30 years ago would buy a single elephant, today should keep bull elephants as the nearest approximation. What I am missing?
 
Jurek7 said:
I am very surprised why no zoos in Europe want to take young bulls. For me it is an obvious idea for a zoo which wants to raise popularity and keeps no elephants.

First, think which animal is the biggest and most popular - the elephant. Second, think about minimal expense needed - zoos have always complained that a herd multiplies the expense but proportionally does not add the popularity. So build a simple exhibit for 2-3 bull elephants. It is significantly cheaper, and takes less space, than for a breeding herd of elephants.

So, a kind of a zoo which 30 years ago would buy a single elephant, today should keep bull elephants as the nearest approximation. What I am missing?
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Several zoos already have bull-groups and also Hannover has planned to stop keeping a family-group and switch to keeping a bull-group.
 
vogelcommando said:
Several zoos already have bull-groups and also Hannover has planned to stop keeping a family-group and switch to keeping a bull-group.
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I wonder where their cows are going then. Maybe Pairi Daiza like the rest of the former Hannover group, I doubt PD has more room though since they already have around 20 elephants.
 
vogelcommando said:
Several zoos already have bull-groups and also Hannover has planned to stop keeping a family-group and switch to keeping a bull-group.
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Why is that? Last I heard is they are building a family holding along next to the bull elephant facility. It may be they will part with the current mixed ancestry elephant group (Bornean and mainland Indian bloodlines) and start afresh.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Why is that? Last I heard is they are building a family holding along next to the bull elephant facility. It may be they will part with the current mixed ancestry elephant group (Bornean and mainland Indian bloodlines) and start afresh.
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They changed plans due to the need of zoos to keep bulls. They will be building an orangutan enclosure next to the elephants instead.
 
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