Plus don’t Hannover have Indra? She has been there since 1973 I believe.
Asian Elephants in Europe 2021
- Thread starter Tusker
- Start date
Plus don’t Hannover have Indra? She has been there since 1973 I believe.
Hannover cant breed with their existing group anymore because the females in breeding age are Borneo elephants (or hybrids) and the EEP has decided to stop breeding from them. So Hannover has the choice to keep their elephants as all-female group indefinately or send them away and start with a bull group with the hope of sending the bulls away and aquire new breeding females in the future. Considering that space for bulls is lacking it makes sense to use the new facility in Hannover for bulls and send the female group to a zoo whose facilities are not for for males.
Elephantelephant
Well-Known Member
Yes, she live there since birth in 1973.
The first part I did cover, the second part is news to me (and probably a few other European zoo aficionados)! I was under the impression that currently Hannover has finished up their bull facility and will go forward with renovating the current matriarchal paddocks.
I cannot see that the Hannover Zoo would be degraded to only have a bull facility when they were / are planning on building both for bull and cow herd elephant paddocks. It is somewhat incongruous a policy line by the EAZA/EEP species coordinator and the phasing out of Bornean and hybrid mainland/island elephants is a very recent development. The EAZA/EEP species coordinator has only in the last few months ordained a research project into genetics of the entire EAZA/EEP Asiatic elephant population.
I would sincerely hope the species coordinator will be lenient - it is a bit of a drag and misjudgement the species coordinator should bear the brunt off - on Hannover Zoo as their breeding was previously recommended EEP policy and now the official line being no crossbreeding (the better wording versus hybridisation) and these elephants being instantly worthless for the breeding program was not their fault in the making (in fact the EEP/EAZA from the outset negated any subspecific differences in Indian subcontinent (India/Sri Lankan), Malayan-Indochina as well as the island nations of Sumatra and Borneo being one source population - highly unlikely ... is my personal belief - and this goes beyond even the island subspecies of Sumatra and Borneo. It was officially denied even when at the time anecdotal evidence of island elephant morphology and phenotypes suggested otherwise - an unfortunate misjudgement -).
Having said that, I further encourage assembling the pure-bred Bornean herd in a S.E. Asian zoo like f.e. Singapore Zoo and set up another ex situ Bornean breeding herd. It would require sending a few Bornean elephants from the Lok Kawi park here and - I would go so far as to support - another herd within Europe (make that Pairi Daizi with their current 2 Bornean elephant cows and bring in a bull and 2 more cows from Lok Kawi park here). In my opinion that would make more sense than the current EAZA/EEP species coordinator line (which in my perception is a tad short-sighted as was their old claim that no ssp. differences existed in the Asiatic elephant across that huge range in the first place).
Perhaps you can fix up a link here to the newspaper / zoo communications here?
Is Winner (from Israel now living in Izmir) a generic elephant?
I wouldn’t think so? He’s Alexander’s full brother.
DanKoehl
Well-Known Member
Maybe and idea, but as long as Zimbabwe are exporting ca 200 elephants to China, it really wouldnt change much, to stop import of a few to Europa.
DanKoehl
Well-Known Member
I get a bit confused here, what is a "generic" elephant?
well. I saw that some AR legal group just filed a suit to stop the importations from Zimbabwe of any elephant.
I assumed generic as hybrid.
i just realized this information should be under the African elephants in UK.
DanKoehl
Well-Known Member
As far as I know Winners parents were Motek and Warda. There was 2 Motek, one Asian and one African, which may have confused people sometimes. Winner, an Asian elephant (Elephas maximus) at Izmir Sasali Wildlife Park
The only documented hybrid was Motty, born 1977 in Chester Zoo Motty, an African savanna elephant (Loxodonta africana) at Chester Zoo
more Motty the african and asian elephant crossbreed
Hybrid like Indian x Bornean subspecies.
Motty was the only known actual Asian and African hybrid.
Would that mean that Winner’s daughters are not pure subspecies?
I'm pretty sure Motek, Warda, and all their calves (including Winner) are of the Indian subspecies. I'm not sure what subspecies the mother of his calves Begumcan is though. However, there is a good chance she is an Indian elephant as well.
Begum is a gift from India so it’s fair to conclude that she is an Indian subspecies.
Please note: do not confuse the term hybrid(isation) here as you are using it now for 2 entirely different genetic transfers in animal breeding.
In all intense purpose, and I admit the semantics remain confusing as the process differs between animal and plant breeding techniques where even well versed biologists confuse both terms quite frequently and use them retrospectively
Rather it would be:
A) hybrid or hybridisation is the reproductive biology process in animal breeding where breeding occurs between different species (interspecies). F.i. Rothschild's giraffe (subspecies northern giraffe) x reticulated giraffe or Przewalski horse x Mongolian wild ass.
B) crossbreeding whereas the very same reproductive biology principle comes into play in animal breeding but this within the species itself, so between subspecies or / races-breeds (intraspecties). F.i. Angolan x South African giraffe (2 subspecies of the southern giraffe) or Anglo-Arabian x Andalusian horse breed.
Last edited:
NOTA BENE: Given that elephant populations in Zimbabwe (as in South Africa) are increasing the wildlife authorities have introduced a system of quotas for culling or cropping elephants or alternatively transferring these where populations do not exist in good numbers and/or zoos or captive-breeding facilities. There is nothing inherently wrong with that policy and AR activism is getting in the way of international wildlife trade regulations under CITES (where provisions for captive-breeding and ex situ management are valid trade exemptions) as well as good conservation in situ work.
Moreover, any ban on elephant exports or transfers in situ actually is counterproductive and an actual major stumbling block to any conservation initiatives or long term elephant management work on the part of wildlife authorities and park managers. What about the ever increasing human-wildlife conflicts, the realities on the ground where national parks, wildlife reserves and protected zones are effectively enclosed islands in a stream of human habitations and land occupied for agriculture, plantations, farms, industry, mining and other human impacted economic interest areas. On top there is an ever increasing gap and lack of sufficient funding for biodiversity conservation and consequently wildlife operations to manage wildlife resources effectively and sustainably. Our global economy being based around consumers and supply and demand, including your average AR variety of folk, are (ab-/mis-)using all natural resources to the extreme and not putting back in the financial clout to actually conserve or protect natural resources, habitats, animal and plants species effectively nor sustainably. It is for good reason we are both in a biodiversity as well as environmental crisis mode (while still after 60+ years not acting upon all the ominous signs and dark clouds around us).
In other words, the actions of AR activists in the Zimbabwe elephant ban (and this ban is across th board under CITES from wild to other wild/captive) are actually stopping any reliable, sustainable and valid wildlife conservation programs in their foot steps nor are they contributing in any significant ways to funding wildlife conservation in situ or otherwise.