North American African Elephant Population

[IndianRhino]

I saw Houstons recent calf at 2 weeks old. Yes she was an Asian elephant, but still the zoo had her on exhibit with the whole female herd (and other calfs). Its so interesting to see how “protective” certain American zoos are of elephant calf’s compared to other institutions such as Houston. And from what I understand the Houston strategy is more similar to how most European institutions handle calfs.

Back to Pittsburgh though they have never been too transparent about there elephant center or program. Maybe they had a few stories run on the center once but since then silence, and therefore it is kind of hard to understand the welfare of there elephants and such. But from everything that’s happened, pulling the first calf and moving her to the zoo (to basically just bring in visitors), choosing free contact as there hill to die on, the issues with the Philadelphia elephants, and now this calf, one does have to question there program overall. Especially at a time they are trying to become reaccredited.

Like maybe both of the calfs are bad luck. That sometimes happens but at least be like other zoos and provide updates on the situation. For example look at the updates from the Rosamond Gifford Zoo or the Oklahoma City Zoo when there young elephants got EEHV. Regular communication and being realistic about the prospects of survival is better than painting some rosy picture as Pittsburgh seems to want to do.

I completely agree with everything you said, it's unfortunate Pittsburgh can't be straight-forward with us like a lot of other zoos. I do feel a little bad for Pittsburgh though, they "rescued" three females from Botswana and sent their bull Jackson to breed with them. Because of this the zoo's cows Savannah and Moja never got to breed again. They ended up sending one of the Botswana cows to Zoo de Granby, and now it looks like both of their other cows are not producing enough milk to raise their calves properly. If this new calf passes away as well, that would be really unfortunate for them. The situtation they are in currently is pretty dire, however they could easily fix this by sending Jackson to some other zoo to breed (or to retire) and bring in a new bull to breed with Savannah, Victoria, Angelina, Zuri and maybe another bull for the ICC to breed with Sukiri. If they want more cows at the ICC, they can send either Victoria and her sister Zuri, or Savannah and her daughter Angelina there. This way, both the zoo and ICC would have a pretty equal number of breeding cows and imo would be much more sucessful in breeding.

 

[Yassa]

I dont feel bad for Pittsburgh at all. No one forced them to send Jackson away, they could have kept him at the zoo to continue breeding with their proven females. Or they could have replaced him with a mature bull from another Aza zoo. Its their own mistake that they did neither.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

I completely agree with everything you said, it's unfortunate Pittsburgh can't be straight-forward with us like a lot of other zoos. I do feel a little bad for Pittsburgh though, they "rescued" three females from Botswana and sent their bull Jackson to breed with them. Because of this the zoo's cows Savannah and Moja never got to breed again. They ended up sending one of the Botswana cows to Zoo de Granby, and now it looks like both of their other cows are not producing enough milk to raise their calves properly. If this new calf passes away as well, that would be really unfortunate for them. The situtation they are in currently is pretty dire, however they could easily fix this by sending Jackson to some other zoo to breed (or to retire) and bring in a new bull to breed with Savannah, Victoria, Angelina, Zuri and maybe another bull for the ICC to breed with Sukiri. If they want more cows at the ICC, they can send either Victoria and her sister Zuri, or Savannah and her daughter Angelina there. This way, both the zoo and ICC would have a pretty equal number of breeding cows and imo would be much more sucessful in breeding.

I also believe that the best option for Pittsburghs elephants is to either send Jackson away and become a "savoir" bull bouncing between facilities to mate with cows that don't have a bull or their breeding male doesn't seem interested (example : Sdudla) or to send either Savannah and her daughter Angelina to ICC while retaining Victoria and her sister Zuri at the zoo and welcome back Moja to the zoo and bring in two new bull's .

But if we could go back in time before Moja left, and all three Botswana females were still living together. The pittsburgh zoo since the still work in free contact could have easily checked the estrous cycle's of Savannah and Moja and bring in Jackson to mate with them. And if the herd got to large the could have split the herd sending Savannah her daughter Angelina and any future calves that she could have had to the ICC, while the zoo could keep Moja, and her matriarchcal herd at the zoo. Thus breeding at ICC would have been a lot more successful as Sukiri, Thandi, and Seeni could have learned mothering behavior from Savannah.

 

[nczoofan]

I dont feel bad for Pittsburgh at all. No one forced them to send Jackson away, they could have kept him at the zoo to continue breeding with their proven females. Or they could have replaced him with a mature bull from another Aza zoo. Its their own mistake that they did neither.

I wonder what Pittsburgh's plan for the zoo elephant exhibit is. The outdoor exhibit is just 2/3 of an acre (with a tiny side yard, that I guess could function as a bull yard) and a rather small barn (6,000 sq ft). Meaning the entire elephant display at the zoo could fit inside a single barn at the off-site location. Despite this they keep breeding age females at the zoo instead of moving them to there breeding facility and keeping nonbreeding individuals at the zoo.

 

[TinoPup]

I guess I should have paid more attention to this thread, I went to Pittsburgh yesterday. There were four elephants outside, none visible inside. Lots of photos of calves on the wall, bragging about free contact.

 

[Bronx]

Sukiri is raising her daughter but her breasts aren't as full as other lactating females and photos of Suni show that she is keeping her head down and her spine is very visible https://zooelefanten.de/profile/amerika/usa/pennsylvania-fairhope-international-conversation-center/suni/

I just saw a photo of Sukiri and her daughter but it would appear that her milk has dried up and they are bottle feeding Suni Sukiri -> Petra Prager – zooelefanten.de

I don't know how much experience you have around elephants but your uniformed jump to conclusions, based on a few photos without context, is along the lines of a sensational animal rights fanatic. You are basing all this on a few sparse photos and what else, do you work with elephants? How do you know the milk has dried up? A lactating cow's breasts do not have to appear engorged all the time. Supplemental feedings are needed in some cases, hence the bottle.

In regards to the calf's head position being lowered. Firstly, one image shows the calf napping with a relaxed trunk on the ground and eyes closed so of course the head is down. The second image shows the head down when the photo was taken. I guarantee if you saw video of this moment in time you would see the head moving up and down in various positions based on the locomotion and behaviors being expressed. Africans tend to carry their head below the shoulder line, it is part of their anatomy and neutral stance.

I don't know and Suni is dreadfully skinny a calf her age should be running around chasing birds and gaining three to four pounds a day. And isn't the use of chaining an elephant a bit outdated

You have no context of when this photo was taken, so how can you make that call? Have you seen a newborn elephant before? When a calf is first born they are on the thin side, Africans more so. During the first months the weight can fluctuate in a healthy calf. In this image the calf is not covered in blood, as per a newborn, but that doesn't mean it wasn't recently cleaned/born. In the next set of photos, without the mother, the calf looks healthy with a full, non gaunt appearance. The zygomatic arch on the face is not showing, the iliac crest is not prominent and yes, the spine is visible but that is normal.

So that calf is as good as dead….

Based on what information? The uninformed conclusions of Javier Iniguez?

I completely agree with you. It is so sad to see all of the pictures. Pittsburgh is to blame for this calf’s poor condition. How do they expect the mother to raise the calf when she is being chained to a pole as shown in this image.
View attachment 502241

That calf is skinny when she should be fat from the milk.
any idea why Sukiri is chained?

Same as above, you have no idea of when this photo was taken. Newborn calves can often look thin before they start feeding from the dam, putting on weight, and building muscle mass. This is just a single photo, the elephants are not chained normally or with any regularity. The chain is to ensure the safety of the calf when hormones are running high in the initial introduction phase.

A lot of the responses on here are pure speculation based on very few sources of information or first hand experience. How many of you have visited the ICC and spoke to the staff there? Or been around real elephant calves in person? I have, so it is disheartening to see all the vile accusations against them from people with no real knowledge of elephants other than reciting records from elephant.se and thinking they know it all.

 

[TinoPup]

I don't know how much experience you have around elephants but your uniformed jump to conclusions, based on a few photos without context, is along the lines of a sensational animal rights fanatic. You are basing all this on a few sparse photos and what else, do you work with elephants? How do you know the milk has dried up? A lactating cow's breasts do not have to appear engorged all the time. Supplemental feedings are needed in some cases, hence the bottle.

In regards to the calf's head position being lowered. Firstly, one image shows the calf napping with a relaxed trunk on the ground and eyes closed so of course the head is down. The second image shows the head down when the photo was taken. I guarantee if you saw video of this moment in time you would see the head moving up and down in various positions based on the locomotion and behaviors being expressed. Africans tend to carry their head below the shoulder line, it is part of their anatomy and neutral stance.



You have no context of when this photo was taken, so how can you make that call? Have you seen a newborn elephant before? When a calf is first born they are on the thin side, Africans more so. During the first months the weight can fluctuate in a healthy calf. In this image the calf is not covered in blood, as per a newborn, but that doesn't mean it wasn't recently cleaned/born. In the next set of photos, without the mother, the calf looks healthy with a full, non gaunt appearance. The zygomatic arch on the face is not showing, the iliac crest is not prominent and yes, the spine is visible but that is normal.



Based on what information? The uninformed conclusions of Javier Iniguez?





Same as above, you have no idea of when this photo was taken. Newborn calves can often look thin before they start feeding from the dam, putting on weight, and building muscle mass. This is just a single photo, the elephants are not chained normally or with any regularity. The chain is to ensure the safety of the calf when hormones are running high in the initial introduction phase.

A lot of the responses on here are pure speculation based on very few sources of information or first hand experience. How many of you have visited the ICC and spoke to the staff there? Or been around real elephant calves in person? I have, so it is disheartening to see all the vile accusations against them from people with no real knowledge of elephants other than reciting records from elephant.se and thinking they know it all.

So you work there, I take it?

 

[nczoofan]

When someone claims "based on what information", I agree. But Pittsburgh has a history of issues with its elephant program and issues with transparency. Why the blackout of information otherwise. Why use pictures of the calf from the same day outside, and repost it multiple times on social media? We will see in the coming weeks but I don't think the pictures lie that the calf is in a less than optimal state.

Also there is a history of users like this showing up randomly and defending institutions against accusations, but not including actual rebuttals. So this fits in that trend. Its always interesting to see ghost accounts appear anytime someone criticizes an institutions elephant program...

 

[Mai Thai]

I don't know how much experience you have around elephants but your uniformed jump to conclusions, based on a few photos without context, is along the lines of a sensational animal rights fanatic. You are basing all this on a few sparse photos and what else, do you work with elephants? How do you know the milk has dried up? A lactating cow's breasts do not have to appear engorged all the time. Supplemental feedings are needed in some cases, hence the bottle.

In regards to the calf's head position being lowered. Firstly, one image shows the calf napping with a relaxed trunk on the ground and eyes closed so of course the head is down. The second image shows the head down when the photo was taken. I guarantee if you saw video of this moment in time you would see the head moving up and down in various positions based on the locomotion and behaviors being expressed. Africans tend to carry their head below the shoulder line, it is part of their anatomy and neutral stance.



You have no context of when this photo was taken, so how can you make that call? Have you seen a newborn elephant before? When a calf is first born they are on the thin side, Africans more so. During the first months the weight can fluctuate in a healthy calf. In this image the calf is not covered in blood, as per a newborn, but that doesn't mean it wasn't recently cleaned/born. In the next set of photos, without the mother, the calf looks healthy with a full, non gaunt appearance. The zygomatic arch on the face is not showing, the iliac crest is not prominent and yes, the spine is visible but that is normal.



Based on what information? The uninformed conclusions of Javier Iniguez?





Same as above, you have no idea of when this photo was taken. Newborn calves can often look thin before they start feeding from the dam, putting on weight, and building muscle mass. This is just a single photo, the elephants are not chained normally or with any regularity. The chain is to ensure the safety of the calf when hormones are running high in the initial introduction phase.

A lot of the responses on here are pure speculation based on very few sources of information or first hand experience. How many of you have visited the ICC and spoke to the staff there? Or been around real elephant calves in person? I have, so it is disheartening to see all the vile accusations against them from people with no real knowledge of elephants other than reciting records from elephant.se and thinking they know it all.

Thank you for coming on to this thread and being so rude to me, @Javier Iniguez, @Yassa, and @ZCChip. I am not animal rights activists and I support many zoos and the idea of zoos. On the other hand I do not support the practices done by the Pittsburg Zoo and ICC on their elephants. Chaining elephants and using bull hooks on them is not humane and hurts the elephants. You say that the ICC chained Sukiri to protect Suni from her. This is the dumbest thing I have herd this week. Baby elephants do not need to be protected from their mothers. The point of chaining a mother elephant after she has had her baby is for the keepers to interact with the baby up close without the mom bothering them. When a baby elephant is born good zoos will wait a couple days to intervene so that they do not mess up the bond between mother and baby elephant unlike the ICC. I have not been to the ICC and I do not work with elephants but I have multiple friends that do. I do not know it all and I never will because I am human but that does not mean I don’t know anything.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

I don't know how much experience you have around elephants but your uniformed jump to conclusions, based on a few photos without context, is along the lines of a sensational animal rights fanatic. You are basing all this on a few sparse photos and what else, do you work with elephants? How do you know the milk has dried up? A lactating cow's breasts do not have to appear engorged all the time. Supplemental feedings are needed in some cases, hence the bottle.

In regards to the calf's head position being lowered. Firstly, one image shows the calf napping with a relaxed trunk on the ground and eyes closed so of course the head is down. The second image shows the head down when the photo was taken. I guarantee if you saw video of this moment in time you would see the head moving up and down in various positions based on the locomotion and behaviors being expressed. Africans tend to carry their head below the shoulder line, it is part of their anatomy and neutral stance.



You have no context of when this photo was taken, so how can you make that call? Have you seen a newborn elephant before? When a calf is first born they are on the thin side, Africans more so. During the first months the weight can fluctuate in a healthy calf. In this image the calf is not covered in blood, as per a newborn, but that doesn't mean it wasn't recently cleaned/born. In the next set of photos, without the mother, the calf looks healthy with a full, non gaunt appearance. The zygomatic arch on the face is not showing, the iliac crest is not prominent and yes, the spine is visible but that is normal.



Based on what information? The uninformed conclusions of Javier Iniguez?





Same as above, you have no idea of when this photo was taken. Newborn calves can often look thin before they start feeding from the dam, putting on weight, and building muscle mass. This is just a single photo, the elephants are not chained normally or with any regularity. The chain is to ensure the safety of the calf when hormones are running high in the initial introduction phase.

A lot of the responses on here are pure speculation based on very few sources of information or first hand experience. How many of you have visited the ICC and spoke to the staff there? Or been around real elephant calves in person? I have, so it is disheartening to see all the vile accusations against them from people with no real knowledge of elephants other than reciting records from elephant.se and thinking they know it all.

I am also not a animal rights activist, and I support many zoos. The only thing that I do not approve of is separating a mother from her calf, and why the bloody hell would you say that it is appropriate to chain Sukiri from her own daughter, the only reason why the chain a mother from her calf is because they don't want the 8,000 pound mother to intervein and protect her calf. And if your such an elephant expert you should know that if an elephant has lots of body fat the spine shouldn't be showing and to see a calf that is not even a few months old which not only the spine is showing but also her shoulders and hip area she is using what little body reverses she has left and she is starving. And I have worked with elephants before in Thailand and I have seen calf's being separated from their mothers at a very young age. And I also have friends in México that work with the largest herd of African elephant's in North America and they say that they've never seen a calf in such poor condition.

 

[ZCChip]

I am also not an A/R activist and do not utilize elephant.se for my information. I support zoos and elephant keeping/conservation. I actually do have a friend that is a head elephant keeper at an USA zoo and another friend in Germany that is knowledgeable about the elephants in the Europe.

No zoo is perfect but the pictures definitely do tell a story. Hopefully we will have a happy ending for this calf.

 

[E Maximus]

Thank you for coming on to this thread and being so rude to me, @Javier Iniguez, @Yassa, and @ZCChip. I am not animal rights activists and I support many zoos and the idea of zoos. On the other hand I do not support the practices done by the Pittsburg Zoo and ICC on their elephants. Chaining elephants and using bull hooks on them is not humane and hurts the elephants. You say that the ICC chained Sukiri to protect Suni from her. This is the dumbest thing I have herd this week. Baby elephants do not need to be protected from their mothers. The point of chaining a mother elephant after she has had her baby is for the keepers to interact with the baby up close without the mom bothering them. When a baby elephant is born good zoos will wait a couple days to intervene so that they do not mess up the bond between mother and baby elephant unlike the ICC. I have not been to the ICC and I do not work with elephants but I have multiple friends that do. I do not know it all and I never will because I am human but that does not mean I don’t know anything.

Although I am not defending them for their comments I would like to point out, that there are quite a few zoo's in the US with what we all consider successful breeding programs who do restrain their cows during the birthing process and for some time after. And they do this for the protection of the calf, mother and keepers because they do go in with them once the calf is on the ground. One major zoo being Houston. The only difference between them and Pittsburgh's though is that the latter has let photos of it get out and you all were made aware. We should hold them to the same standards as others and not shame one for doing something just because their program is "lacking" and they've had bad luck with their calves. Without complete transparency from the ICC/Pittsburgh all we can do is speculate based on photos and some knowledge of similar scenarios. In all honesty we do not know the cause behind their "questionable" practices and can only hope that the calf and cow are and remain healthy and happy and that their facility is doing what is best for their elephants. But also just like how you guys seem to feel what was originally said was rude, they could very much feel the same way about what you all are saying about either their facility or someone they knows facility. We have to remember that although we are all animal lovers and we are all also human and can take things personally even if not meant in that way. If we are going to criticize others we need to be open to their criticisms as well especially seeing as this is a public forum.

 

[John Marchwick]

LIVE AT 10:30 A.M.: Omaha zoo to give update on pregnant elephant

An update on Claire’s pregnancy

 

[Yassa]

I am very aware that - at least in the past- Houston chained females during birth, pulled the calves away and then gradually introduced them back to the mother with lots of intervention of the keepers. And I hate that practice, be it in Houston, Pittsburgh or elsewhere. It is incredibly stressful for the mother elephant and very dangerous for the keepers, and it can destroy the bond between mother and calf. I have little doubt that the problems they have in ICC with this baby and the calf that was born before are related to this.

 

[ZCChip]

Chaining the mother to be during birth is very outdated.

Yes first time mothers do tend to kill their calves.
Sometimes other elephants do kill the calf as in case of Indra’s first calf killed by his grandmother. Anyone remember watching that?

But it has been found when the mothers are raised in family units or at least know the basics and give birth in a herd setting they usually do fine. Kicking a calf is only to stimulate it not harm it.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

Chaining the mother to be during birth is very outdated.

Yes first time mothers do tend to kill their calves.
Sometimes other elephants do kill the calf as in case of Indra’s first calf killed by his grandmother. Anyone remember watching that?

But it has been found when the mothers are raised in family units or at least know the basics and give birth in a herd setting they usually do fine. Kicking a calf is only to stimulate it not harm it.

New mothers sometime kill their calves because they don't have experience around calves

 

[PSO]

I do find it ironic that certain chatters accuse Pittsburgh for not being transparent yet when the zoo sends out info and pictures to be transparent it's met with wild speculation and no true elephant knowledge or experience, particularly these individuals.

I also say this as someone who worked at the ICC with that herd and still stay in contact with them

 

[ZCChip]

Well I don’t think I am accusing ICC for not being transparent.

They do have a tough elephant situation to deal with and in the top of that working to be AZA accredited again.

 

[TinoPup]

I do find it ironic that certain chatters accuse Pittsburgh for not being transparent yet when the zoo sends out info and pictures to be transparent it's met with wild speculation and no true elephant knowledge or experience, particularly these individuals.

I also say this as someone who worked at the ICC with that herd and still stay in contact with them

I'm going to take Bronx's liking of this post, but not replying to anything, as confirmation that they work there.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

I'm going to take Bronx's liking of this post, but not replying to anything, as confirmation that they work there.

you got that right