Bronx Zoo Happy the elephant 'unlawfully imprisoned' lawsuit claims

Neil chace said:
The logistical cost of sending one of the elephants to Bronx (or anywhere else) would be much more ideal than keeping a singular elephant when one dies.
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You're forgetting about the fact that transporting the animal could pose as a serious health risk, and that emotionally she may well be in a better state 'alone' with her keepers than in a strange environments with unfamiliar people and surroundings.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
You're forgetting about the fact that transporting the animal could pose as a serious health risk, and that emotionally she may well be in a better state 'alone' with her keepers than in a strange environments with unfamiliar people and surroundings.

~Thylo
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I agree with this. A good example is some cases from Asian sanctuaries. Even if they get an old elephant who has lived alone for a long time or was used to only one other elephant, it will sometimes not improve the rest of his life. On the contrary. Such old cows, which live in one place for a long time and move them towards the end of their lives, are often stressed out, lose weight and have no appetite. And trying to make these old cows friends with others often ends in failure or takes years. And usually the old elephant doesn't have that much time to make friends.
(Of course, this is not entirely comparable, because in Asia there are often rescued elephants, which are used for riding and die of thirst in the summer months, so anything is best for them.)
 
Elephantelephant said:
And trying to make these old cows friends with others often ends in failure or takes years. And usually the old elephant doesn't have that much time to make friends
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This seems to be a particular problem in Asian Elephants, and one that has sometimes caused a fair bit of trouble even before old age. Some individuals seem to bear particular dislike for others and occasionally become downright aggressive. In Bronx's case Happy cannot be allowed unprotected contact with Patty, it's too risky. Even attempting to bring in another elephant or two for potential introduction would be a very delicate situation. We have seen from other herds sometimes the aggression does dissipate (National Zoo for example) but it can't be guaranteed. Trying to bring in more elephants wouldn't really benefit Bronx at the moment anyway.
 
From what I heard, it is a rule not an exception that old elephant cows don't make new friends and start fighting soon after getting to know each other.

Which makes a tricky subject - is aggression something to be avoided, or natural elephant behavior which should be tolerated? Do cows really get welfare improvement if they live next to cows which they dislike? What about the welfare of those other cows brought as companions?
 
Great Argus said:
This seems to be a particular problem in Asian Elephants, and one that has sometimes caused a fair bit of trouble even before old age. Some individuals seem to bear particular dislike for others and occasionally become downright aggressive. In Bronx's case Happy cannot be allowed unprotected contact with Patty, it's too risky. Even attempting to bring in another elephant or two for potential introduction would be a very delicate situation. We have seen from other herds sometimes the aggression does dissipate (National Zoo for example) but it can't be guaranteed. Trying to bring in more elephants wouldn't really benefit Bronx at the moment anyway.
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Is it not true of both the Asiatic and the African elephants that older individuals might have personalities' not so groomed for group living in old age if they have had a - less than social - formative upbringing? I would assume (speculative ... here I admit) that in more social settings this behaviour and closely knit family herds along the natural wild state matriarchal herd lineages it would and will be less an issue (unless herds get so big that food and territory competition come into play).
 
Jurek7 said:
From what I heard, it is a rule not an exception that old elephant cows don't make new friends and start fighting soon after getting to know each other.

Which makes a tricky subject - is aggression something to be avoided, or natural elephant behavior which should be tolerated? Do cows really get welfare improvement if they live next to cows which they dislike? What about the welfare of those other cows brought as companions?
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What Phoenix Zoo has done with aggressive elephants is commendable IMO. To my understanding, they took up the task of housing geriatric and aggressive elephants, and had an initial system of rotation with two in the barn and one in the main yard. Now that they have three yards, any elephant can be in any yard, no issue. Similarly, what Bronx did by splitting the Khao Yai yard is also commendable. Rather than Bronx being a home for geriatric elephants after Patty and Happy pass on, I stand by my position on them having a bachelor herd of teenagers instead. Denver Zoo is the only zoo in the United States that solely focuses on housing a bachelor group of Asian elephants (without a family group nearby). As I mentioned earlier, I think Tucker and Baylor from Houston are good candidates, perhaps Kandula from OKC or Samudra from Oregon, maybe any surplus males from African Lion Safari, the list goes on.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Bronx also has off-show yards.

~Thylo
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A single off show yard and a 3300 sq ft barn with 4 stalls I believe. I am not really wanting to wade into this discussion because for the current space to continue keeping elephants it will need a new barn, which won’t be cheap and the land will recover developing adjacent exhibits or off exhibit areas for other species. As well none of this will fix the issues with viewing the elephants for more than 45 seconds. And lastly while the monorail did get revamped in the past, I can imagine its lifespan is not too long given what has happened to similar systems at zoos and amusement parks across the nation. Imo this should be spun into its own thread.
 
I would welcome some zoos in North America taking on the task of housing bachelor bull herds as well as some for the not so sexy task - well perceived by PR and management sometimes - to house only geriatric elephants. It would create facilities to rehouse their elderly elephants in secure and accommodations in good standing within the AZA network as well as free up space for other members of the pachyderm family like hippo (remember policy is now housing a breeding group) or rhino (the more individual solitary and city zoo setting species Indian GOHR and African black).
 
nczoofan said:
A single off show yard and a 3300 sq ft barn with 4 stalls I believe. I am not really wanting to wade into this discussion because for the current space to continue keeping elephants it will need a new barn, which won’t be cheap and the land will recover developing adjacent exhibits or off exhibit areas for other species. As well none of this will fix the issues with viewing the elephants for more than 45 seconds. And lastly while the monorail did get revamped in the past, I can imagine its lifespan is not too long given what has happened to similar systems at zoos and amusement parks across the nation. Imo this should be spun into its own thread.
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They should have more than one off-show yard, as when peaking from the monorail I've seen elephants in different yards. You are correct on the rest of your assessment, however. Additionally, I have also found myself wondering about the long-term viability of the monorail... It is certainly one of the last of its kind in US zoos (worldwide zoos, even?) and I don't imagine it is cheap to maintain or operate and without elephants there really isn't enough star power to keep people riding. With San Diego going the way it's going, Bronx remains probably the most important AZA zoo for Asian deer, and if the monorail goes I fear what will become of these vital herds.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
They should have more than one off-show yard, as when peaking from the monorail I've seen elephants in different yards. You are correct on the rest of your assessment, however. Additionally, I have also found myself wondering about the long-term viability of the monorail... It is certainly one of the last of its kind in US zoos (worldwide zoos, even?) and I don't imagine it is cheap to maintain or operate and without elephants there really isn't enough star power to keep people riding. With San Diego going the way it's going, Bronx remains probably the most important AZA zoo for Asian deer, and if the monorail goes I fear what will become of these vital herds.

~Thylo
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In terms of star power a friend had a thought about if the elephant enclosure could be used for several orangutans (big jungle gym), but this would need a back wall they can't climb out of.
 
RatioTile said:
In terms of star power a friend had a thought about if the elephant enclosure could be used for several orangutans (big jungle gym), but this would need a back wall they can't climb out of.
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Only issue with that is the same issue present for all animals in the Wild Asia Monorail - only seeing them for a limited time. Orangutans were originally going to be a part of JungleWorld but ended up getting axed (according to @reduakari, the site that the orangutans would have been on became a major cogeneration plant). I say keep the starpower of the elephants on the monorail, and if Bronx were to bring in orangutans, I'm not entirely sure where they'd go.
 
Wyman said:
Only issue with that is the same issue present for all animals in the Wild Asia Monorail - only seeing them for a limited time. Orangutans were originally going to be a part of JungleWorld but ended up getting axed (according to @reduakari, the site that the orangutans would have been on became a major cogeneration plant). I say keep the starpower of the elephants on the monorail, and if Bronx were to bring in orangutans, I'm not entirely sure where they'd go.
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They would fit best near Wild Asia, perhaps take over the south end of Asia parking.
 
Gomphothere said:
Spent yesterday at the zoo. Perfect weather and a light crowd. Not going to try to provide a Thylo style inventory--can't match his recall of detail. Random observations: Didn't see the Bactrian Deer--the blackbuck were at the back of the south end but the rest of teh animals were all spread out at the north end of the yard but not near enough the monorail to distinguish. The guide didn't mention them but he did mention the Axis Deer. Is there an entirely empty yard between the Mongolian Wild Horses and the Gaur? Saw a Gaur mating, or at least an attempt. Are there still Tahr in with the Markhor? I thought I saw some at the back, but the guide didn't mention them and they were far enough away I couldn't be sure. Happy was the only elephant out. Penny the rhino was out, complete with a face white from sunscreen. Peacocks crying and displaying everywhere. Also got to see an Andean Condor copulation. There were four brown bears on exhibit. All of the Geladas, ibex and hyraxes were on exhibit, but the Geladas stayed at the very top of the hill--saw just a male, a female and a very rambunctious youngster, also three ibexes, and a bunch of hyraxes. Seemed to be only three colobus on exhibit. Don't know how many they currently have. About half the cages in pheasant row were completely empty and unsigned. Chilean Flamingos were all missing--just a totally empty enclosure. Never saw that before. No male Nyala to be seen. The two male lions were on display. Were only three alpacas out at the Childrens' Zoo--thought there used to be more. Were at least five inside cages at the Mouse House empty and unsigned, along with all the outside cages. Butterfly garden seemed low on butterflies. The baby alligator on display at the Reptile House next to the big crocodilians is labeled a Chinese Alligator. Disappointingly limited selection of t-shirts at the main gift shop (wanted a good one for a friend). Two Amur tigers were out, one in each of the yards. Seem to be about half the bee eaters there used to be. Anyone know what the story is with the lone Emu and (apparently) lone Crowned Crane behind the World of Birds? The pheasant enclosure that was part of the Snow Leopard complex has been removed. The zoo had added Smews in both the Aquatic Birds House and WofB. That's as much as I can remember right now.
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There shouldn't be any extra empty yard between the wild horses and Gaur. The zoo still has 0.3 tahr, the guides usually mention them if they see them. Great to hear about Baboon Reserve opening in full again, though idk why so few Gelada are out. Perhaps a pair broke off from the main troop? The male nyala doesn't seem to be out all day every day. There have been times when I see him in the morning but not in the afternoon. Which Mouse House enclosures were empty? All the indoor ones had inhabitants on my last visit a week ago. Are you sure you didn't mistake enclosures that have been connected to allow for more space as empty and unsigned? I'm not sure what the question is about the Emu and crane? That yard has always been home to Emu and the back row of enclosures have always been crane yards. The Black-Necked Crane is back there, too. What do you mean by the pheasant aviary being removed? It was present and still stocked a week ago.

~Thylo
 
What should there be between the horses and the Gaur, or is that all the horse yard? The group at the back I believed could be tahr was indeed a group of three females although the guide didn't mention them. I don't remember which Mouse House cages were empty, but I did count five that had no sign and no apparent inhabitant. I didn't double-check to see if there was an open door to the next door ones. One was the first one on the right as you enter. Just wondering why the zoo has the emu and crane(s) back there when they aren't on exhibit (unless you know to look when you leave WoB, but of course there's no sign) and not there for breeding. The pheasant cage (originally for the tragopan) was gone. The netting used to be clearly visible, and it was gone, as was any sign. I suppose it could be a netting replacement issue.
 
Gomphothere said:
What should there be between the horses and the Gaur, or is that all the horse yard? The group at the back I believed could be tahr was indeed a group of three females although the guide didn't mention them. I don't remember which Mouse House cages were empty, but I did count five that had no sign and no apparent inhabitant. I didn't double-check to see if there was an open door to the next door ones. One was the first one on the right as you enter. Just wondering why the zoo has the emu and crane(s) back there when they aren't on exhibit (unless you know to look when you leave WoB, but of course there's no sign) and not there for breeding. The pheasant cage (originally for the tragopan) was gone. The netting used to be clearly visible, and it was gone, as was any sign. I suppose it could be a netting replacement issue.
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The horse yard is massive, originally built for a herd 100+ strong of sika. I suspect what you're thinking of is just the rest of this massive yard. The first enclosure on the right when you enter was Barbary Striped Grass Mouse so that's weird. Did you see the Feathertail Gliders by chance? Well the crane yards are technically off-exhibit housing, and the Emu is on-exhibit in that yard. The zoo houses I believe extra cranes in those yards, including those that can't be on-exhibit anymore (Black-Necked due to age I presume, crowned because bird-hoofstock mixes can sometimes he troublesome). That's strange (and sad) about the pheasant aviary. I hope it's just a netting replacement, but it could also be AZA policies about how close prey and predator species can be held next to each other interfering. Hopefully they do something with the space regardless.

~Thylo
 
Happy Days? The Bronx Zoo’s star attraction is a tough case for Court of Appeals and court of public opinion – Bronx Times
How long is this absolute waste of time and resources going to go on for? Don't these idiots realize just how horrendous their logic is? Good on Bronx Zoo for sticking to their guns, but at the same time... just say it out loud that these nitwits' pathetic excuse of a case is logically fallacious at best and undeniably ludicrous at worst. I'd like to think this judge is just hearing the case to watch the circus unfold, and the armchair activists'll do their funny dance, everybody'll cringe, the judge'll rule in favor of the zoo, millions of dollars lost. Here's a bright idea - SPONSOR TOYS FOR HAPPY AND PATTY DURING THEIR TWILIGHT YEARS WITH THE MONEY YOU'RE WASTING ON THIS STUPID CASE.

P.S. the worst part about all this, this is an egregious insult to the people who directly work with Patty and Happy on a regular basis, actually *trying* to maximize their welfare the best they can. THEY actually walk the walk, while these slacktivists merely talk the talk. These jackasses don't deserve the name "Nonhuman Rights Project" either, same deal with "In Defense of Animals".
 
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