ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Last two African lions euthanised

I admit my last message may not have been worded totally fairly but the point still stands.

The animal welfare is always put first, in any decent Zoological organization.

It is incredibly sad the lions were put down, but sometimes that just has to be the way to do things. Its not a perfect world and the keepers know way more about the animals then any of us do.

I also dont like the word 'destroy' that is inappropriate to me
 
Lafone said:
Not sure it’s about ‘let’s move on’ tbh. It’s inappropriate to not be bothered about animal welfare.

Saw both lions just before this euthanasia event and both were reported to be fit and well by the keeper who was there at the time. So that was a straight out lie, or the keeper was unaware of the state of their charges. Neither are ideal.

They were both active and moving well around the enclosure.

It appears to be Whipsnade putting the problem of two elderly lions the public (and some people here it appears) are a bit bored of out of the way. The zoo is short of money and lions cost a lot to feed and treat.

That’s a pity.

When Neo was put down recently it was after a pretty marked deterioration (I visit a good amount and regularly photograph the lions and Neo’s visible weight loss / drooling was quite marked in the couple of weeks leading up to his destruction.

But Max and Kia were far less obvious and it’s sad to see them both destroyed in this way.

Destroying both as one would be lonely if the other was sick is also a rather sad end to a very happy pride who gave a lot of pleasure. And you might class it as kind however I won’t apologise for not finding it so.

Lions are social creatures, and wild animals in captivity who have a commercial purpose - they are not pets but solo elderly lions at the end of a pride have lived well in captivity elsewhere - they don’t draw much of a paying crowd of course.

It’s hard to believe both were too sick to go on at the same time.

Whipsnade also does destroy and move animals without replacing them more in the winter - I agree with the other poster that it’s to avoid too much discussion. Older animals are indeed older, but there’s a clear difference between old and dead. It’s indeed rather inappropriate to confuse the two.

I really like whipsnade, and I visit a lot but I’m also very sad to see the lion pride and it’s individuals end in this way.
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Whipsnade’s team are dedicated to the animals they care for and to suggest this was carried out for any other reason than in the lion’s best interests is both inaccurate and disrespectful imo.

You noted you saw the lions before the euthanasia took place and they appeared fit and well. Big cats are naturally predisposed against showing any sign of weakness in the wild. When deterioration is noted, it’s usually a sign they’ve been unwell for sometime, which the zoo may not have been aware of without conducting a full physical exam (something which is not done monthly for obvious reasons).

You mentioned welfare. Welfare is a diverse concept that includes social well-being. As a social species ourselves, we can relate to the stress a lion used to living in a pride would suddenly face when confronted with living life on it’s own. In the past five years, there’s been four incidences of zoos in New Zealand euthanising the remaining lion in it’s pride when it’s companion required euthanasia on welfare grounds. The reasoning behind the first case was explained in detail via a doco, where they noted the companion of the unwell lion suffered severe anxiety when they were seperated.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Whipsnade’s team are dedicated to the animals they care for and to suggest this was carried out for any other reason than in the lion’s best interests is both inaccurate and disrespectful imo.

You noted you saw the lions before the euthanasia took place and they appeared fit and well. Big cats are naturally predisposed against showing any sign of weakness in the wild. When deterioration is noted, it’s usually a sign they’ve been unwell for sometime, which the zoo may not have been aware of without conducting a full physical exam (something which is not done monthly for obvious reasons).

You mentioned welfare. Welfare is a diverse concept that includes social well-being. As a social species ourselves, we can relate to the stress a lion used to living in a pride would suddenly face when confronted with living life on it’s own. In the past five years, there’s been four incidences of zoos in New Zealand euthanising the remaining lion in it’s pride when it’s companion required euthanasia on welfare grounds. The reasoning behind the first case was explained in detail via a doco, where they noted the companion of the unwell lion suffered severe anxiety when they were seperated.
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I did speak to the keepers about the lions. Given the strength of feeling in this thread about respecting the keepers / staff then their verdict should carry some weight. Doing well to destroyed in a few days isn't really very logical. So they may have lied (under instruction / on their own initiative) to avoid making a fuss. Which is public management and understandable in a sense but better to say they don't know to avoid a 'fine then quickly dead' scenario. Or they may not have known at all but then their attendance at ethics meetings seem a bit far fetched as a notion. Either way it's contradictory. Perhaps they just don't expect people to regularly visit any more.

I like Whipsnade, have been a member for many years and I visit a lot, as I said. At the end of the day these were very expensive, pretty elderly lions who were no longer a public draw once they went down to two (or indeed to one). If you spent any time at the exhibit you'd hear people saying 'only X lions' 'Zoo Y has cubs' even 'lions are boring' (which is a bit bonkers in any case) and a lot less about how amazing they were over time.

So, inaccurately and disrespectfully if you want to paint disagreement that way, I'd simply say the keeper said the lions were ok, they appeared to be so and then very shortly after that they were both destroyed. I believe given where we were with this pride the decision was as much economic as welfare based, on that we can agree to differ. It's a sad end to the pride however and a not very pleasant insight into how decisions are made about the animals that we like to visit. I do feel for the keepers, it must be very sad for them. I then start to wonder about what will happen to the increasingly elderly chimps.

It would be good if Whipsnade published information, as they did in NZ, I think that was a good idea and at least if reasons are given you can take a look, disagree or not but at least you know. However they are very tight lipped about animal destruction.

Anyway. It remains a collection with a lot of fine animals in it. Hopefully that continues.
 
Ignoring the actual topic for a moment, and only for a moment, what I find galling is, is getting this type of information from a 3rd party source.

A few years ago, I did write to both Matthew & one other ( woman) who's name escapes me for now, that as a fellow I was very disappointed that I was getting this type of information from 3rd party sources. I was assured by both, that we "fellows" at least, would be getting updated press releases of anything as "important" as this, before it was made public, or released to any other source.

This I wrote, after the Wolves disappeared. since then I have received ........... absolutely nothing nada zilch ...
 
Ectotherm said:
Ignoring the actual topic for a moment, and only for a moment, what I find galling is, is getting this type of information from a 3rd party source.

A few years ago, I did write to both Matthew & one other ( woman) who's name escapes me for now, that as a fellow I was very disappointed that I was getting this type of information from 3rd party sources. I was assured by both, that we "fellows" at least, would be getting updated press releases of anything as "important" as this, before it was made public, or released to any other source.

This I wrote, after the Wolves disappeared. since then I have received ........... absolutely nothing nada zilch ...
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I completely agree - it would be so much better if this information was official and if it had more details or context well that can only be a good thing all round.

Official info on the end of the pride would have been much better (vs a small in zoo sign and the transaction team 404ing every lion / lion exhibit reference on the whipsnade part of the ZSL website; as things stand now you can’t even find out officially what lions used to live at the zoo and they’ve only been gone for a couple of weeks).

This sort of authorised / official info is even more important in these 24-7 on social media days.
 
How sad. There’s a changing of the tide in terms prides in the UK at the moment, plenty of the older individuals passing away. Would be helpful if they could take on a coalition (given all the spare males about at them moment )but i suppose they want the cubs. I had thought they might take on asiatic lions since paignton will no longer house them.
 
Ectotherm said:
Ignoring the actual topic for a moment, and only for a moment, what I find galling is, is getting this type of information from a 3rd party source.

A few years ago, I did write to both Matthew & one other ( woman) who's name escapes me for now, that as a fellow I was very disappointed that I was getting this type of information from 3rd party sources. I was assured by both, that we "fellows" at least, would be getting updated press releases of anything as "important" as this, before it was made public, or released to any other source.

This I wrote, after the Wolves disappeared. since then I have received ........... absolutely nothing nada zilch ...
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ZSL paying their members lip service is nothing new I’m afraid, and I can certainly name other examples, along with the wolves, where this has happened. One that springs to mind is that of a cheetah that was on the adoption list that had passed away. Adoptees had failed to be informed with the result their children were left in tears upon being informed by a third party (a volunteer) when they visited.

In defence, however, I would argue where does one draw the line? Personally, when it involves large, charismatic species, there should be no argument. Front up and be honest.

I get the impression, based on incidents over the years particularly at London, that ZSL are afraid of any backlash.

And it certainly will be interesting when the time comes to discuss the Chimps!
 
Panthera1981 said:
ZSL paying their members lip service is nothing new I’m afraid, and I can certainly name other examples,
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Me also, there certainly has been plenty over the years :(
Panthera1981 said:
In defence, however, I would argue where does one draw the line?
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Fellow members are supposed to be kept informed with everything happening at the zoo,
my compliant is, it just doesn't happen. And not just the sad events, no birth announcements either.
Yes they are on the FB page some time after the event, or a notice board outside the enclosure, that is left for members to discover on their next visit.
 
Panthera1981 said:
ZSL paying their members lip service is nothing new I’m afraid, and I can certainly name other examples, along with the wolves, where this has happened. One that springs to mind is that of a cheetah that was on the adoption list that had passed away. Adoptees had failed to be informed with the result their children were left in tears upon being informed by a third party (a volunteer) when they visited.

In defence, however, I would argue where does one draw the line? Personally, when it involves large, charismatic species, there should be no argument. Front up and be honest.

I get the impression, based on incidents over the years particularly at London, that ZSL are afraid of any backlash.

And it certainly will be interesting when the time comes to discuss the Chimps!
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It’s a very good point on backlash and I hadn’t really considered it - if they say nothing it’s unlikely to be picked up by anyone except people who regularly visit I guess. Given the tiger event they probably decided to just stop saying anything. But that doesn’t sit well with having fellows / members and some view of people who love the zoo being ambassadors for it.

But I’d agree - big headline animals in particular deserve a bit more.

The only action whipsnade have taken now is to remove all lion references (except the map graphic which they can’t alter easily I suppose ) on the website so they all go to error pages. As if the lions were never there. Not really a comms strategy!
 
Megan Jones said:
How sad. There’s a changing of the tide in terms prides in the UK at the moment, plenty of the older individuals passing away. Would be helpful if they could take on a coalition (given all the spare males about at them moment )but i suppose they want the cubs. I had thought they might take on asiatic lions since paignton will no longer house them.
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A coalition would be great - there’s a good space for them. With a bit of TLC on the enclosure to make it a more activity friendly space as another poster mentioned it could be a fine space for active non breeding lions to enjoy. And there are a good few around to offer space to.

There appears to be a fair number of African lions so producing cubs doesn’t seem quite right though I have little clue about the strategy around the breeding book of course and perhaps the current stocks are aging out. But I agree they will probably want the opportunity of cubs for the public draw.

Someone made the point that asiatics are london’s ‘thing’ so whipsnade wouldn’t do those too and I think that was well observed.
 
From an article I've just read from 2019 there was a lion called Saturn (unsure whether male or female) anyone know when Saturn died?
 
Some media coverage now with an explanation on the reasons they were destroyed. Does chime with the conversation about not wanting to draw attention. Clearly were only going to make a statement if asked.

Whipsnade Zoo lion habitat 'lays empty' after deaths of beloved animals

Kia, Max and Neo were firm favourites among staff and visitors alike for many years.

Since Neo died in November, and vets have kept a close eye on Kia and Max and were quick to notice the geriatric lions were experiencing similar symptoms; difficulty getting up and moving, as well as problems with their coordination.
 
Embu said:
From an article I've just read from 2019 there was a lion called Saturn (unsure whether male or female) anyone know when Saturn died?
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I believe it was in 2020.

Toto the other male died before Neo, in October 2021 which was really the beginning of the end.
 
Didn’t realise ‘old age’ was a sufficient reason for euthanasia from an organisation that purports to be all about animal welfare.
 
Rather than clog up the other thread, with today's announcement of the lions returning to AA next week, any ideas where the new pride May be sourced from?
I persume they will want a potential breeding pride or is there still too many surplus individuals to rehome?
 
Embu said:
Rather than clog up the other thread, with today's announcement of the lions returning to AA next week, any ideas where the new pride May be sourced from?
I persume they will want a potential breeding pride or is there still too many surplus individuals to rehome?
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They were talking about having a breeding pride (though they could have bachelors where there would be lots to choose from) so it’s not easy to know where they would come from. Can they assemble one (if they get a male) and add females? What is the process for creating one or do they have to come as a group from a pair for example?

From a little bit of reading they can create a pride if they get a suitable male and manage introductions but then they’d possibly have to rethink the space? Either splitting the enclosure or the house to create safe conditions for an introduction?
 
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I was thinking about this today, depending on the number they want to start with they could take the boys from blair drummond or even the youngest females from that pride, if the facility wished to spare them - something they have done in the past. I would guess khari from Port lympne will either be staying put or going to howletts as from next month they will have no lions there. Saffina passed away recently and the cubs are off the south africa. Could possibly take the two oldest boys from woburn but i don’t see it happening. Unlikely that west midlands will find any benefit to parting with their boys considering how many there are and the age of the main pride. As for females given the sparsity in the uk i’d say importing some surplus juveniles from europe would be the best move for everyone - so long as they aren’t of the woburn line.
 
As a possibly irrelevant aside I would think it may be wise for collections to start to consider suitable mates for Khari of blackpool and Khari of Port Lympne
 
It’ll be a shame when the temporary lions have gone - with both the cheetahs and the lions absent that whole end of the park will feel a lot more fragmented and empty.
 
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