Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Master Plan 2022

TZFan

TZFan

Well-Known Member
10+ year member
Hey guys!

With Dolf having confirmed several times the master plan should be ready in February and the board meeting on Feb 14, we are hopefully just weeks away from learning about the zoos future. I know we have all been anticipating it for over 2 years now. I do want the thread to be our one stop shop for our reactions to it rather then cluttering the development thread, and it will make it easier for people to find our conversations about it in the future easier.

However before the big day arrives I thought it would be fun if we had a discussion about our thoughts before it drops. Get our opinions gathered and then see how it all pans out when we finally can see it and in years to come how its implemented and changed. Now to be clear this is a speculation thread. We should keep our comments based on the old plan, and whats been suggested for the new plan by the zoo itself.

To stimulate discussion I thought it would be interesting to pose a bunch of questions and go through them one by one, every few days to allow people to answer and others to comment back on those answers. We have a good group here and I think we could have some very interesting conversations and perspectives on something we have all been anticipating for so long.

Some of the questions I was thinking of were...

  • What are you most looking forward to based on what we know? Could be an animal from the animal plan, an exhibit or area we know they will tackle, or something else guest oriented.
  • Are you concerned about something that might be coming in the new plan?
  • Is there something from the old Master Plan you are hoping they keep? If so what and why?
  • What element(s) do you want to see dropped from the old master plan? Why?
  • What is something you want to see addressed, whether it was in the old plan or not that has been an ongoing issue or something you feel has been missing?
We could add to the list if other questions come to mind.

To start us off lets go with what are you most looking forward to based on what we know? You could have multiple answers obviously. Let's try to give this question a few days so as many people get to add their input as possible and hopefully get some responses to answers.
 
Joke answer - Toronto brings back elephants, and there's a cleverly hidden inscription along the walls that, if an individual stands in a certain way, reads "Up Yours, PETA!"

Serious answer - anything that prioritizes phasing *in* species rather than phasing *out*, and potentially new and inventive ways of exhibiting certain species (like expanding on Bronx' "Spiny Forest" for ring-tailed lemurs and whatnot, or displaying komodo dragons in a volcanic scrub forest, or maybe even highlighting ecosystems in underrepresented countries in the zoo design world like Korea for Amur tigers, or Pakistan/Afghanistan for snow leopards.)
 
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@StoppableSan, love the joke answer. A part of me will always want to get elephants back solely as an up yours moment. I'm quite content with them going because that was the keepers choice. Where they went that is what I have an issue with because the keepers were so abused in that process.

I like the serious answer of prioritizing additions rather than subtractions. I wouldnt think they need to add a lot of new species to do something amazing with the master plan. A few additions in those state of the art exhibits you mentioned as well would do wonders. I think if the zoo invested money the way you are suggesting they could do a lot with a smaller selection of projects because that would free up more money for higher quality exhibits. I really hope they avoid the good enough exhibits of the past and look to leading the way as they claim they are doing with the orangs.
 
@StoppableSan, also very interested in the phase in species. There are a number of species to leave in the future, so finding out what might possible replace them would be interesting to see.

I'm interested in getting more information on the Savanna Pavilion. I really like the idea, but we've received so little information that I feel most will be underwhelmed at it's reveal.
 
@cypher, the Savanna Pavilion is a biggie. Not gonna lie if it is dumped I will be seriously bummed. Since the savanna opened in 1998 I have always felt like adding a pavilion was a missed opportunity. Reality was they didnt have the money for such a massive addition to the project and I will be shocked if they can find the money now to do it or rather do it right. Though if anyone can get it done I have faith in this leadership team because they are consistently showing they look at things and try to do a great job.

I have been pondering what I would be most excited about and while @cypher and @StoppableSan have had great answers near the top of my list, I am most excited that they are dumping the old master plan and I think it will be a total redo I could get behind. I was very unhappy with the previous plan. I hated that they wanted to switch Australasia to a Canadian pavilion, basically gut Eurasia to reuse exhibits for Canadian stock (not that the domain animals dont deserve better), make Indo into Oceana, and I didnt like Ravens Roost when they were doing glamping in the domain already. I knew the Australasia and Oceana moves were going to be impossible. So many animals would be lost because Indo simply isnt large enough to accommodate even a fraction of the other pavilion. We were going to loose so many of the species I adore. And I have always thought there is enough room in the abandoned section of Eurasia and unused space in Eurasia as it stands now that with some rejigging neither the new Canadian Wilderness nor Eurasian Wilds would suffer significant species losses. I did like that we were getting a new outdoor gorilla exhibit, a new hippo exhibit and a more mixed savanna. While we know the hippos wont be staying, Dolf has already said a gorilla upgrade is on the table and if the pavilion is dont they would be smart to mix things more so what I liked will be retooled and probably even better. I know probably a weird answer to that question but its really what Im most looking forward to... The end of a master plan I think would have hurt the zoo more than helped and the hope of a new plan developed by people who seem to get that people want quality exhibits not good enough upgrades to whats already there.

If Im more reasonable definitely the savanna pavilion and any improvement to the gorilla outdoor exhibit with a deep hope that they will also address the day room which is an abomination in a nearly perfect pavilion.
 
I get the feeling that Master Plan 2: Dolf's Revenge is gonna be like the original Master Plan on steroids. Now that we actually have a CEO willing to actually do the work to make the zoo better instead of just coast I really think we're gonna see some significant changes here. I just hope that they're all for the better and don't involve sacrificing anything sacred.

Based on what we know already I think there's already a lot to get excited about. The Animal Plan was particularly merciless when it came to cuts so I'll echo @StoppableSan's sentiment that I'm very excited about the potential phase-ins that'll be taking the place of some of the leaving species. With so many species on the verge of departure I get the feeling we're gonna be hearing about a lot of exciting new arrivals. The Indian rhinos, baboons and chamois are all leaving and yet the Animal Plan didn't fill us in on what would be replacing them, so I feel like the sky's the limit there, those are three decent-sized exhibits. And hey, it can't be a coincidence that the P-horses are getting moved and all the other drive-thru animals are being phased out. I have my suspicions about what's going on there but I'll leave that for now and we'll get back to it when we get to that point in the discussion. I really hope they're still as excited to start a markhor breeding program as they were back when they wrote the Animal Plan.

As for non-animal stuff we already know about I'm definitely excited to see some concrete plans for the entrance update, as well as potential stuff we've heard rumblings about like the outdoor gorillas redo, the jaguar expansion and the mysterious Savanna pavilion, I think there's a lot of potential for all of those to go big. Oh, and it'd be nice to get an update on the new monorail, we haven't heard about it in a long time and I really hope that it didn't fall through the cracks.

and yes I definitely that the elephants coming back with a huge middle finger to the slacktivists is absolutely necessary. add some Swahili words that translate to "The Price is WRONG!!!" over the entrance and I'll be a happy camper
 
@hyena142, totally forgot about the potential mention of the monorail. That's a good one if its there still. I would love to ride the monorail track again even if it was just once for the nostalgia. Hopefully it shows up. If it doesnt it probably is another wonderful dream dashed but in that case I wont blame the zoo. They werent funding it so if the company who approached them backs out that can hardly be their fault.

I dont think there will be a lot of animal additions mentioned. Maybe the markhor and takin in Eurasia, whatever is replacing the rhinos is kinda obvious, maybe a few other things that would be coming in the next one or two projects. But I will take any additions they mention. And I know I didn't mention the koalas or walruses but I dont think the walruses are happening and covid has given the Aussies a lot of time to rethink giving us koalas. Id be thrilled if the koalas were still mentioned because that would indicate they have a fairly firm deal in place.
 
@TZFan The monorail is one thing that I don't necessarily need to happen but it'd be very nice if it did. I never got to ride the OG monorail so I don't have nostalgia for it but it's such a major part of the zoo's history that I'd like to see it return in some way. My one question is if it does happen where will it go? I can't imagine it'd replace the zoomo since we just got the updated winter version, and I can't imagine they'd just send it down to the Domain because I've got a feeling the Domain isn't long for this world.

I don't think we'll be seeing a ton of big new names but I don't think they'll be in short supply either. Markhors are almost certainly confirmed, like you said I wouldn't be surprised if takins took over the chamois exhibit, the rhino and baboon replacements are an unsolved mystery, and we still have two empty exhibits in Tundra that need filling. Plus so much empty space in the drive-thru if that is being turned back into a walking area. I very much doubt we're getting anything jaw-dropping (I think divine intervention is the only way to save the walrus deal and I was skeptical about koalas even before covid) but I'd be surprised if there weren't a few at least promising names in there. I also have hopes that Bucky and the gibbons getting along might be the push the zoo needs to try experimenting with mixed exhibits again, maybe they can add gazelles in with the elands or bring back emus to go with the roos and wallabies. At the very least I know they wanna try expanding the flamingos into the capybara exhibit.
 
@hyena142, I believe the zoo would run both the zoomo and monorail. Since the entrance is being redone they dont necessarily need to use the zoomo station as the main station for the monorail. Most of the track is still there. Just the parts through the core woods to the station and the station to the old track coming up from the domain were removed. It can be replaced or even rerouted. I have memories of the zoomo loading kinda where the carousel is now. But I dont remember if that was happening before the monorail was taken off line. Its a fuzzy memory.

I have heard a lot that the keepers in the savanna would like a gazelle or impala. They could be added easily enough especially with increased barn space from the savanna pavilion. Emus might be a harder push considering how tight they are on barn space for the roos and wallabies in the winter. However if they do go forward with the plan to rework the aviary so some of them could spend the winter there maybe they would change their mind.
 
I'm excited to see what the zoo does with the Indo-Malaya pavilion now that the old "Oceanic" idea is dropped. All the focus is on the outdoor orangutan exhibit, but the indoor exhibit definitely needs to be overhauled some day, along with the rest of the pavilion. It would be awesome to see an expanded mixed species exhibit with gibbons, but who knows if the zoo would want to do that. The new boardwalk and tiger improvements also sound good.

I'm also interested in seeing the new Canadian wilderness exhibits, is the plan to still bring the exhibits up from the domain and into Eurasia?

Also, if there is one thing for the zoo to address it has to bee getting some exhibits filled in tundra trek. It would be to see the problems with the owls and foxes fixed so they can come back. A crane in the fox exhibit is just a lame decision.
 
@GorillaFan15, you ask a good question about Indo. It needs a facelift for sure but it's a trickier one for them then the rainforest was because of how its set up right now and its smaller size. Definitely one to watch.

The Canadian Wilderness is also a big question mark. For so long we have known the plan was to relocate but there has been mention of not really moving it. Hard to say. I hope it moves but not at the expense of any other things.

We are probably all in agreement that Tundra Trek should be addressed even if its just topping up exhibits. For something that opened just over 10 years ago it is really sad that its in the shape it is animal wise.

This is great getting to see everyone's different takes so far. I look forward to hearing others too.
 
I'm also one that's looking forward to see what they do with Indo-Malaya. Like most of you, I wasn't a fan of the Oceania Pavilion.I can't see them going forward with such a drastic change like that this time around with the pavilion. I think we'll see more of a modernization of the Pavilion, to improve on everything currently there.
 
Indo is in a weird spot right now, all eyes are on it because of the outdoor orangs as well as the potential for an indoor orang redo, but at the same time it's losing the leopards, the rhinos, and possibly the gibbons depending on what the zoo decides to do with the species after Holly passes. It's definitely for the best that the Oceania Pavilion idea was dropped, I have no idea how they thought they were gonna pull that off with how limited the space is in there. Completely forgot about the tiger ramp fixes, very excited to see what the plan is for that. I definitely have high hopes for the rhino exhibit while still keeping reasonable expectations. Just don't turn it into the exotic pet rescue centre they were talking about a while back and keep the Indo theme and we're good.

My theory is that they're beginning very early prep for Canadian Wilderness. Once the macaques and yaks are phased out and the P-horses are moved to the Wilds (which in itself will require the mouflon and what's left of the barbary sheep to be phased out) that whole old Eurasia area will be completely empty and ready to be turned into the Canadian Wilderness it was always meant to be. Plus the Domain needs to be addressed, it's just not up to code anymore and everything down there that isn't a bison is getting older and non-breeding, so they might be waiting the cougar, grizzlies, moose, etc. out before they just close down the whole area.
 
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I think the Canadian Wilderness concept that intrigued a lot of people, so I'd like to see that concept taken and improved upon. Having a good selection of Canadian animals in an easy to access area is really something that would be nice to see.
 
@hyena142, Im right there with you on the fear. I definitely will go into that more when we get to concerns in the next few days. Its a big one for me.

Moving the P Horses will take a lot of time. The mouflon herd grew quiet a bit when they took in the rescues and it was a herd being bred so we have 3 young animals under 2 or 3 so it will be a long haul to get rid of them unless as their numbers drop they integrate them with the tur or use the tahr exhibit once they are dead.

The ages of the domain critters definitely points to the Wilderness being addressed one way or another probably as soon as the entrance is done. No other space is so lacking in younger animals. Sure Eurasia has ancient mouflon, barbary sheep, chamois, some tur, some P horse and 1 tiger but it also has a bunch of breeding age animals and youngster potential. Bison calves are the domains only breeding stock. They ditched the only other breeding species being the lynx.

I think another factor that might dictate moving the domain is the hill. They have until 2025 to address the accessibility issue of the hill. The best way around it is most likely to just move all the animals. Sure its expensive but you get great exhibits too or you do the work on the domain hill and are left with the same miserable exhibits needing work.
 
I think the best option for the Domain is moving the animals out of there and closing that area off to regular visitors. It seems like it'll be too much of an investment in the addressing AODA concerns as well as exhibit maintenance and upgrades.
 
Agreed @cypher, The cost of moving them out is cheaper than investing in an area which has quite a few empty exhibits. I Think I would move the moose girls and let then sit in Eurasia or maybe in Tundra with the Caribou, then the remaining Cougar could sit with Pemba for a little bit while we wait on a female snow leopard. The racoons can literally be released into the core woods or rouge valley. The hardest part would be the Grizzlies. The Grizzlies probably wouldn't be able to fit in the polar bear facility as it seems a little tight on space, but maybe the old Japanese Macaque Exhibits would work, it would just be the holding that might be a problem but they enclosure would have the moat for sure so they wouldn't be able to climb out.
 
I would only move the animals once new exhibits are ready for them. No point moving animals to temporary housing, especially ones where other animals are held.
 
I would have to agree with @cypher, doubling up doesnt make sense. There is plenty of space to build new exhibits. There is all the space east of Tundra Trek that is either filled with trees or where old Eurasian exhibits sit. Good sized grizzly, cougar, and moose exhibits could be built there easily. Old exhibits could quite possibly be converted and there are 4 spaces there still standing, the old wisent exhibit, the barbary macaques, lion tailed macaques and the old dhole. They could expand and improve them for inhabitants and then scatter in smaller exhibits that are less expensive for the smaller mammals and possibly some rescued hawks, owls, or eagles. Just need the last macaques to pass and to move wattled crane Cedric to Africa where he belongs.

While it might seem like doubling up in exhibits would get the animals moved fast there is still 3 years before the hill needs to be addressed. If they are moving it they could close the domain and spend 2-3 years after 2025 building it and it wouldnt seem weird to have that area closed. By 2025 it's very possible the only animals still alive down there will be the bison and maybe the grizzlies.
 
I think its critical the Canadian species get addressed ASAP. Its so cold here in Canada that I think it would be very wise for the zoo to invest in a greater diversity of cold-tolerant animals, with high quality, spacious exhibits of course. Its such a shame the overall lack of diversity currently housed within the Trek, Domain, and perhaps especially Eurasia - an area of the world that has many interesting cold hardy species. Amur Leopards, Golden Snub-nosed Monkeys, Markhors, Moon Bears, etc. Give us some of those. Beef up our Tundra trek with Musk Ox and that one time tease the Walrus. A fantastic (dare I say cutting edge) Canadian section seems like it be a critical component of our zoo. Obviously winter will never see the crowds summer brings but I can't help but feel more temperate species would greatly boost the attractiveness of off-season visitation.
 
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