Australasian Western Lowland Gorilla Population

[Pertinax]

Nasibu is indeed a genetically valuable male. I was just looking over Delilah’s family records and all seven of her offspring are deceased; and all eight of her eldest son’s offspring are deceased. Nasibu is her only living grandchild.

Perhaps Lisbon Zoo will bring in a new female as their other female is approaching 40 and Anguka is so well represented through the Kibabu line. Her sister Shinda’s son was castrated due to the difficulties in placing males within Europe; and he and Jahari are Frala’s only grandchildren to dat

Correct about Nasibu. Delilah had a very poor breeding record- she raised her first baby(Daniel, the second born, but first to be raised in the UK) and progressively failed to rear subsequent babies over the first year or two. They either died or were handraised. The later ones she had after moving to Belfast, they allowed her to try and keep herself, but they also died. Nasibu is the offspring of her daughter Naomi, who was a handraised but very undersized female. She had three(?) young in Befast, all removed for handraising but only Nasibu survived. Bristol used to suggest there was a genetic fault with Delilah to explain all their losses but this doesn't ring true. They lost babies from several other females also.

Lisbon do have a third female- a wild-caught female 'Coco' who came there from Madrid Zoo. So she too is very valuable genetically. But she is socially disadvantaged from handrearing(?) and it appears Nasibu doesn't mate with her so they are at stalemate with them.

There was even talk of castrating Jahari but fortunately it didn't happen.

 

[Zoofan15]

Nasibu is the offspring of her daughter Naomi, who was a handraised but very undersized female. She had three(?) young in Befast, all removed for handraising but only Nasibu survived. Bristol used to suggest there was a genetic fault with Delilah to explain all their losses but this doesn't ring true. They lost babies from several other females also.

Naomi has given birth to four offspring:

1.0 Unnamed (1993) Died 6 days
0.1 Unnamed (1994) Died 5 days
0.1 Nanga (1995) Died 6 months
1.0 Nasibu (1996) Sent to Stuttgart

Lisbon do have a third female- a wild-caught female 'Coco' who came there from Madrid Zoo. So she too is very valuable genetically. But she is socially disadvantaged from handrearing(?) and it appears Nasibu doesn't mate with her so they are at stalemate with them.

She was wild born in 1984 and came to Lisbon Zoo in 1991 from a circus. She would have been very humanised and it’s probably testament to Nasibu’s tolerance that she could be integrated into the troop full stop.

 

[Zorro]

I had expected the region’s population to increase over time but it does not appear to be the case. Perhaps sending two young females a few years ago to overseas zoos from a small population might have contributed to it, also having so few holders even among our major zoos might not have helped much either.

 

[Zoofan15]

I had expected the region’s population to increase over time but it does not appear to be the case. Perhaps sending two young females a few years ago to overseas zoos from a small population might have contributed to it, also having so few holders even among our major zoos might not have helped much either.

Space has greatly limited breeding efforts. Taronga had no issues breeding, but contracepted the Apenheul females so they each had two infants each over the decade that followed.

Melbourne has struggled to form a cohesive troop from the start. The silverback’s intolerance of socially abnormal females has limited numbers in the troop and the only viable breeding female has been off contraception for a while without success.

Last I heard, Mogo were focussing breeding efforts on Kriba who turns 43 this year. Hopefully they’ll come to their senses soon (if they haven’t already) and instead concentrate on her 11 year old daughter.

Whether the four young Taronga females should have been retained within the region rather than exported is a moot point. Both Melbourne and Mogo could benefit from an additional female each; but given the exported gorillas were close relatives, I’d rather see unrelated imports.

 

[Zorro]

Space has greatly limited breeding efforts. Taronga had no issues breeding, but contracepted the Apenheul females so they each had two infants each over the decade that followed.

Melbourne has struggled to form a cohesive troop from the start. The silverback’s intolerance of socially abnormal females has limited numbers in the troop and the only viable breeding female has been off contraception for a while without success.

Last I heard, Mogo were focussing breeding efforts on Kriba who turns 43 this year. Hopefully they’ll come to their senses soon (if they haven’t already) and instead concentrate on her 11 year old daughter.

Whether the four young Taronga females should have been retained within the region rather than exported is a moot point. Both Melbourne and Mogo could benefit from an additional female each; but given the exported gorillas were close relatives, I’d rather see unrelated imports.

I understand even some year’s ago that the US population was growing at 10 percent per year and has been mentioned the European population is getting to full capacity which points to the question as to why we in our region are doing so badly, Have mistakes been made? Or is it due to the limited numbers in limited collections here?.

 

[Zoofan15]

I understand even some year’s ago that the US population was growing at 10 percent per year and has been mentioned the European population is getting to full capacity which points to the question as to why we in our region are doing so badly, Have mistakes been made? Or is it due to the limited numbers in limited collections here?.

Until Taronga construct their new Congo precinct, I doubt we’ll see anymore breeding at their zoo. The original intention was to breed from all three females, but the revelation Johari won’t allow the silverback to mate with her has scuppered these plans.

It’s likely the region has followed the situation in Europe and as a result, been over cautious with breeding recommendations in Australasia. Our zoo bred gorillas will be difficult to place overseas, so we’re basically breeding to what the region can accomodate.

Melbourne would like Kimya to breed again, but this hasn’t eventuated. They really should import a second breeding female imo.

Adelaide Zoo will be the game changer when they become the sixth holder of gorillas in the next few years.

 

[Zorro]

Until Taronga construct their new Congo precinct, I doubt we’ll see anymore breeding at their zoo. The original intention was to breed from all three females, but the revelation Johari won’t allow the silverback to mate with her has scuppered these plans.

It’s likely the region has followed the situation in Europe and as a result, been over cautious with breeding recommendations in Australasia. Our zoo bred gorillas will be difficult to place overseas, so we’re basically breeding to what the region can accomodate.

Melbourne would like Kimya to breed again, but this hasn’t eventuated. They really should import a second breeding female imo.

Adelaide Zoo will be the game changer when they become the sixth holder of gorillas in the next few years.

Its a shame that Seaworlds plans a few year’s ago never materialised I believe they had located a number in the USA that could of been obtained then but plans were changed for what ever reason. Also as had been mentioned before Australia zoo were very interested with mention being made for a huge exhibit on the website at the time. what a difference that could of made to the overall population if it had happened.

 

[Zoofan15]

Its a shame that Seaworlds plans a few year’s ago never materialised I believe they had located a number in the USA that could of been obtained then but plans were changed for what ever reason. Also as had been mentioned before Australia zoo were very interested with mention being made for a huge exhibit on the website at the time. what a difference that could of made to the overall population if it had happened.

It would have been good if Australia Zoo had joined the regional breeding programme. Since the island planned to house them was also scheduled to include an orangutan habitat, I’d imagine the plan was for Australia Zoo to hold a bachelor troop.

Taronga’s new exhibit will include an exhibit for their breeding troop; as well as an exhibit for a bachelor troop, which will be useful in accomodating their three young males.

Adelaide Zoo hope to house a breeding troop; and given the space they have, Orana could easily accomodate a breeding troop in addition to their bachelor troop if finances allowed. They’ve sadly cancelled their planned import of 1.2 from Europe.

 

[Pertinax]

She was wild born in 1984 and came to Lisbon Zoo in 1991 from a circus. She would have been very humanised and it’s probably testament to Nasibu’s tolerance that she could be integrated into the troop full stop.

Coco- I think you have some wrong information about her that actually refers to the background of the wildcaught male Gugas, nowadays in Belfast....? Coco wasn't born until 1994, and went from a 'private owner' (illegal confiscation?) to Barcelona Zoo, then to Stuttgart in Germany (for early rearing I guess), then back to Barcelona, then in 2007 was moved to Madrid Zoo where she lived till 2018, when she was moved to Lisbon. I've seen lots of video of her, she seems very much an outsider. In one fight she has had a nipple bitten off(!). Sadly I think she is a no-hoper breeding-wise, despite her being the last wildcaught gorilla to enter the European zoo population. So that makes any further breeding in Lisbon restricted to Anguka I think, unless yet another female is added.

 

[Zoofan15]

Coco- I think you have some wrong information about her that actually refers to the background of the wildcaught male Gugas, nowadays in Belfast....? Coco wasn't born until 1994, and went from a 'private owner' (illegal confiscation?) to Barcelona Zoo, then to Stuttgart in Germany (for early rearing I guess), then back to Barcelona, then in 2007 was moved to Madrid Zoo where she lived till 2018, when she was moved to Lisbon. I've seen lots of video of her, she seems very much an outsider. In one fight she has had a nipple bitten off(!). Sadly I think she is a no-hoper breeding-wise, despite her being the last wildcaught gorilla to enter the European zoo population. So that makes any further breeding in Lisbon restricted to Anguka I think, unless yet another female is added.

No, I assumed you were referring to Baki and that maybe she had a double name (Coco). I didn’t realise Lisbon had a third female until you mentioned Coco.

Baki came from a circus background, arriving at Lisbon Zoo in 1991. She did breed with the previous silverback, producing a stillborn infant in 1994.

 

[Jambo]

Until Taronga construct their new Congo precinct, I doubt we’ll see anymore breeding at their zoo. The original intention was to breed from all three females, but the revelation Johari won’t allow the silverback to mate with her has scuppered these plans.

It’s likely the region has followed the situation in Europe and as a result, been over cautious with breeding recommendations in Australasia. Our zoo bred gorillas will be difficult to place overseas, so we’re basically breeding to what the region can accomodate.

Melbourne would like Kimya to breed again, but this hasn’t eventuated. They really should import a second breeding female imo.

Adelaide Zoo will be the game changer when they become the sixth holder of gorillas in the next few years.

There's no confirmation yet the Congo precinct is actually going to go through, although I do hope so as the Gorilla enclosure could do with an upgrade. The enclosure's maximum is ten individuals I believe, so breeding is being slowed down as of the last few years.

I visited Taronga today and its always such a treat to see them; much more active compared to Melbourne's troop, although thats likely due to Taronga having four young gorillas! I was not that surprised to hear Taronga have no immediate plans to breed their gorillas. Frala won't be breed from again, and Johari most likely never will so that only leaves Mbeli. I can see Mbeli breeding in around two or three years again to allow the older boys to have an opportunity to interact with a young infant.

Kimya hasn't breed which is a shame but she's only been off contraception for less than a year now so lets not hold our heads low! I can see Melbourne maybe importing Fasiri once she gets older but unfortunately that won't be for another 7+ years or so...Overseas appears the only remaining option if they want to get another breeding female.

 

[Zoofan15]

There's no confirmation yet the Congo precinct is actually going to go through, although I do hope so as the Gorilla enclosure could do with an upgrade. The enclosure's maximum is ten individuals I believe, so breeding is being slowed down as of the last few years.

I visited Taronga today and its always such a treat to see them; much more active compared to Melbourne's troop, although thats likely due to Taronga having four young gorillas! I was not that surprised to hear Taronga have no immediate plans to breed their gorillas. Frala won't be breed from again, and Johari most likely never will so that only leaves Mbeli. I can see Mbeli breeding in around two or three years again to allow the older boys to have an opportunity to interact with a young infant.

Kimya hasn't breed which is a shame but she's only been off contraception for less than a year now so lets not hold our heads low! I can see Melbourne maybe importing Fasiri once she gets older but unfortunately that won't be for another 7+ years or so...Overseas appears the only remaining option if they want to get another breeding female.

I emailed Taronga about the Congo precinct last week and they’re anticipating it’ll go ahead with exhibits for a breeding troop and a bachelor troop in addition to other unconfirmed species. It’s still very much in the planning stages.

Aside from space and her well-represented family line, they’re delaying breeding from Mbeli for social dynamic reasons. She’s the favourite female of the silverback and already throws her weight around as it is. Having two offspring herself at least adds some balance in Frala’s favour; which be even further tilted towards Mbeli when her next offspring arrives.

A good time to breed Mbeli would be as the three young males move into a bachelor troop in the next three years or so. This would allow Fikiri the chance to observe the maternal process, while still a juvenile herself.

 

[Jambo]

I emailed Taronga about the Congo precinct last week and they’re anticipating it’ll go ahead with exhibits for a breeding troop and a bachelor troop in addition to other unconfirmed species. It’s still very much in the planning stages.

Aside from space and her well-represented family line, they’re delaying breeding from Mbeli for social dynamic reasons. She’s the favourite female of the silverback and already throws her weight around as it is. Having two offspring herself at least adds some balance in Frala’s favour; which be even further tilted towards Mbeli when her next offspring arrives.

A good time to breed Mbeli would be as the three young males move into a bachelor troop in the next three years or so. This would allow Fikiri the chance to observe the maternal process, while still a juvenile herself.

That's great news; a bachelor group space will be well needed once the juvenile males come of age to leave the troop.

I think the birth of Fikiri was also mainly for social dynamics. When i've visted, Frala has always been on the outskirts of the troop; i'm told she had a similar role back in Kibabu's troop. The four offspring seem to gravitate to each other though, and Fikiri loves following around her father, Kibali. Johari seems to have the support from Mbeli who she is close too, meaning she has additional protection and higher status over Frala. Male offspring also influence ranking within the females, so considering the fact that Mbeli has two versus Frala's one gives an extra boost in the hierarchal ranks.

 

[Zoofan15]

That's great news; a bachelor group space will be well needed once the juvenile males come of age to leave the troop.

I think the birth of Fikiri was also mainly for social dynamics. When i've visted, Frala has always been on the outskirts of the troop; i'm told she had a similar role back in Kibabu's troop. The four offspring seem to gravitate to each other though, and Fikiri loves following around her father, Kibali. Johari seems to have the support from Mbeli who she is close too, meaning she has additional protection and higher status over Frala. Male offspring also influence ranking within the females, so considering the fact that Mbeli has two versus Frala's one gives an extra boost in the hierarchal ranks.

Frala’s pregnancy in 2019 came as a great surprise to me given her age and representation, so I agree it was more for social dynamics. She currently enjoys a comfortable ranking as the second favourite female. It’s an improvement on her position in Kibabu’s troop, where she was the outsider versus Mouila and Kriba and their offspring.

Johari is on the fringes of Kibale’s troop and the lowest ranking female. She keeps her distance from Kibale, who shows little interest in her; versus Mbeli who adores him and Frala who at least stays within his vicinity.

Johari’s relationship with Mbeli deteriorated a number of years ago. Mbeli’s priorities lie with her offspring and she views both Johari and Frala as competition for Kibale, even though the former has no interest in him.

 

[Jambo]

Frala’s pregnancy in 2019 came as a great surprise to me given her age and representation, so I agree it was more for social dynamics. She currently enjoys a comfortable ranking as the second favourite female. It’s an improvement on her position in Kibabu’s troop, where she was the outsider versus Mouila and Kriba and their offspring.

Johari is on the fringes of Kibale’s troop and the lowest ranking female. She keeps her distance from Kibale, who shows little interest in her; versus Mbeli who adores him and Frala who at least stays within his vicinity.

Johari’s relationship with Mbeli deteriorated a number of years ago. Mbeli’s priorities lie with her offspring and she views both Johari and Frala as competition for Kibale, even though the former has no interest in him.

I think that was part of the reason why it was decided that Frala was to move into Kibali's troop, instead of moving into retirement with Kibabu's. This gave her the opportunity to reestablish herself and give her an entirely new start. Unfortunately, Mbeli was introduced first to Kibali which gave her a slight advantage and to this day she still remains the favourite.

When I have visted in the past it still appears to be Frala who positions herself on the outskirts of the troop, often accompanied by her two offspring. Mbeli tends to almost always sit within a close vicinity of Kibali, and i've noticed Johari sort of follows Mbeli and her children around too.

Johari actually came up to Mbeli and stole some of her food at one point which was hilarious. Mbeli didn't bother to chase her but young Mwamba did.

 

[Zoofan15]

I think that was part of the reason why it was decided that Frala was to move into Kibali's troop, instead of moving into retirement with Kibabu's. This gave her the opportunity to reestablish herself and give her an entirely new start. Unfortunately, Mbeli was introduced first to Kibali which gave her a slight advantage and to this day she still remains the favourite.

When I have visted in the past it still appears to be Frala who positions herself on the outskirts of the troop, often accompanied by her two offspring. Mbeli tends to almost always sit within a close vicinity of Kibali, and i've noticed Johari sort of follows Mbeli and her children around too.

Johari actually came up to Mbeli and stole some of her food at one point which was hilarious. Mbeli didn't bother to chase her but young Mwamba did.

Frala is in a much better position in this troop than she ever was in Kibabu’s troop. Frala is from an adequately represented line; but not as well represented as Mouila/Kriba’s line, so they were happy for her to continue breeding - especially with a male less represented than Kibabu.

Mbeli’s mother was Kibabu’s favourite female and she’s no doubt learnt how to endear herself to the silverback. She adores Kibali and genuinely wants to be near him. I believe she would have risen to this position - even if Frala had been integrated first. Frala is naturally independent and disinterested in politics/power plays. She couldn’t care less if she’s the second favourite.

Johari will never rise in the hierarchy unless she makes an effort with Kibali, which she has no interest in doing so. She’s naturally wary of him and would much rather spend her time interacting with the youngsters.

 

[Jambo]

Frala is in a much better position in this troop than she ever was in Kibabu’s troop. Frala is from an adequately represented line; but not as well represented as Mouila/Kriba’s line, so they were happy for her to continue breeding - especially with a male less represented than Kibabu.

Mbeli’s mother was Kibabu’s favourite female and she’s no doubt learnt how to endear herself to the silverback. She adores Kibali and genuinely wants to be near him. I believe she would have risen to this position - even if Frala had been integrated first. Frala is naturally independent and disinterested in politics/power plays. She couldn’t care less if she’s the second favourite.

Johari will never rise in the hierarchy unless she makes an effort with Kibali, which she has no interest in doing so. She’s naturally wary of him and would much rather spend her time interacting with the youngsters.

I think initially the plan was to actually move Frala on with Kibabu's troop and then start a new troop with Kibali, Kimya and Mbeli alongside another female from overseas. This didn't eventuate as Kimya was moved to Melbourne (in place of Johari) and Frala was selected instead.

I read somewhere that Frala was actually rather jealous of Mouila and Kriba due to them being the favourites of Kibabu. As she's got older, she's obviously become more disinterested in group hierarchy and is comfortable with being the second favourite. Fabumi, her oldest son, is also rather independent, often placing himself on the fringes of the troop even away from Frala. Although he's growing quite big and looks to already be bigger than Mjukee! Frala is quite a large female herself.

Johari's wariness around Kibali is rather interesting. She was quite a playful youngster and grew up with two older brothers to play with, alongside many caring aunties besides her own mother. She was actually close with Rigo, and it was hoped they would successfully mate shortly before her departure up to Taronga. It may just be bad compatibility in general, as she is sort of close to the two juvenile males, Mjukee and Fabumi.

 

[Zoofan15]

I think initially the plan was to actually move Frala on with Kibabu's troop and then start a new troop with Kibali, Kimya and Mbeli alongside another female from overseas. This didn't eventuate as Kimya was moved to Melbourne (in place of Johari) and Frala was selected instead.

I read somewhere that Frala was actually rather jealous of Mouila and Kriba due to them being the favourites of Kibabu. As she's got older, she's obviously become more disinterested in group hierarchy and is comfortable with being the second favourite. Fabumi, her oldest son, is also rather independent, often placing himself on the fringes of the troop even away from Frala. Although he's growing quite big and looks to already be bigger than Mjukee! Frala is quite a large female herself.

Johari's wariness around Kibali is rather interesting. She was quite a playful youngster and grew up with two older brothers to play with, alongside many caring aunties besides her own mother. She was actually close with Rigo, and it was hoped they would successfully mate shortly before her departure up to Taronga. It may just be bad compatibility in general, as she is sort of close to the two juvenile males, Mjukee and Fabumi.

I think the combination of Frala and Kimya would have worked better in a harem than Frala and Mouila; but seeing how Julia fared under Otana’s leadership, I struggle to see Johari fitting in and even on hindsight, would say they’ve made the best decision re. the Taronga troop. Kimya was originally introduced to Kibali but never conceived, likely due to being held in a 1.1 pair.

I too heard that Frala’s abrupt and standoffish behaviour was attributed to being an outsider of the Mouila/Kriba clique; but I think a lot of it came down to her personality and disposition. She’s a good mother, but is more distant from her offspring than Mouila, who doted on her infants. An interesting thing I heard is that Fataki used to slap Mouila hard on the head when he entered adolescence. It was perceived as an aggressive/targeted behaviour (as opposed to adolescent mischief) and makes me wonder if he shared his mother’s resentment at their family unit’s place in the troop.

It’s a shame Johari never bred with Rigo. I heard Yuska allowed Rigo to mate with her following Mbeli’s introduction to the Melbourne troop in 2010, so the other females may well have followed suit. Given her social background, Johari’s relationship with Kibali (mutual tolerance) is probably the best that could be expected. As the young males mature, they may take her off contraception to see if she’d allow one of them to mate with her.

 

[Jambo]

I think the combination of Frala and Kimya would have worked better in a harem than Frala and Mouila; but seeing how Julia fared under Otana’s leadership, I struggle to see Johari fitting in and even on hindsight, would say they’ve made the best decision re. the Taronga troop. Kimya was originally introduced to Kibali but never conceived, likely due to being held in a 1.1 pair.

I too heard that Frala’s abrupt and standoffish behaviour was attributed to being an outsider of the Mouila/Kriba clique; but I think a lot of it came down to her personality and disposition. She’s a good mother, but is more distant from her offspring than Mouila, who doted on her infants. An interesting thing I heard is that Fataki used to slap Mouila hard on the head when he entered adolescence. It was perceived as an aggressive/targeted behaviour (as opposed to adolescent mischief) and makes me wonder if he shared his mother’s resentment at their family unit’s place in the troop.

It’s a shame Johari never bred with Rigo. I heard Yuska allowed Rigo to mate with her following Mbeli’s introduction to the Melbourne troop in 2010, so the other females may well have followed suit. Given her social background, Johari’s relationship with Kibali (mutual tolerance) is probably the best that could be expected. As the young males mature, they may take her off contraception to see if she’d allow one of them to mate with her.

Kimya is much more independent compared to Mbeli, and not as attention seeking and attached with Otana as Mbeli is with Kibali. I too believe this would've worked much better; and apparently Taronga did too initially, believing Kimya was the best female to introduce to Kibali first.

Frala is definitely more standoffish especially towards parenting compared to the other females. Last visit she wasn't even with her two year old daughter, Fikiri, who was hanging out indoors with Kibali. In comparison, Mouila and Kriba were known to be especially close to their infants. Kriba was for a long time too with her last offspring, Kipenzi. Kimya at Melbourne is rather the same with Kanzi.

I too also recall reading somewhere about Fataki aggressively slapping Mouila! Although he'd often do the same too Kibabu as he got older, instigating a fight between Frala's family and the rest of the group. He was initially close to Mbeli during his younger years but they grew apart as they both got older. He was largely an outsider of the group, and only really got along well with his younger brother Fuzu.

Yuska, Johari and Mbeli were the females allowed to breed back then if I can recall correctly. It's a shame none never conceived although Yuska was 40 at the time and Johari and Mbeli were still both young so there was never really a good chance for them to fall pregnant. Yuska was witnessed mating with Rigo, and Johari engaged in similar behaviours too. Interestingly I believe Rigo and G-Ann mated the most; G Ann was really the only female he mated with, but unfortunately G Ann was on contraception! Quite a shame.

 

[Pertinax]

Given her social background, Johari’s relationship with Kibali (mutual tolerance) is probably the best that could be expected. As the young males mature, they may take her off contraception to see if she’d allow one of them to mate with her.

Mjukee and Fabumi are now 7 and a half and nearly 7 respectively. A few males are already fertile before this, and have even fathered babies at the very young age of 6 years(!) or so. Its the best hope for Johari to ever become pregnant I think.