Future of Zoos SA zoos (Speculation)

[austrlain zoo gower]

After looking at the SA Zoos master plans they look pritty good at least they have one Melbourne hasn’t got one (correct me if I’m wrong) the addition of Gorrilas, Sri Lankan leopards and Komodo dragons maybe they could do an import of leopards for Melbourne and Adelaide this means that Adelaide want to still house Pygmy hippo, tapir and a few others even when the Australasian populations are dwinderling

 

[Zoofan15]

After looking at the SA Zoos master plans they look pritty good at least they have one Melbourne hasn’t got one (correct me if I’m wrong) the addition of Gorrilas, Sri Lankan leopards and Komodo dragons maybe they could do an import of leopards for Melbourne and Adelaide this means that Adelaide want to still house Pygmy hippo, tapir and a few others even when the Australasian populations are dwinderling

Melbourne Zoo has Western lowland gorillas obviously; but if you’re referring to Sri Lankan leopard and Komodo dragon, then yes, they would serve as a point of difference.

Australia has two unrelated breeding pairs of Sri Lankan leopards, so the next holder would likely relieve either a non breeding pair of siblings or an unrelated pair formed from the offspring of the two existing pairs.

 

[Jambo]

After looking at the SA Zoos master plans they look pritty good at least they have one Melbourne hasn’t got one (correct me if I’m wrong) the addition of Gorrilas, Sri Lankan leopards and Komodo dragons maybe they could do an import of leopards for Melbourne and Adelaide this means that Adelaide want to still house Pygmy hippo, tapir and a few others even when the Australasian populations are dwinderling

Melbourne do not have one. Melbourne hasn't shared a masterplan with the public in more than thirty years. The only one they've ever conceived (in public knowledge) was the Hancock masterplan from the 80's, which never got fully carried out.

Melbourne could do with Sri Lankan Leopards in the future. They have the space for such exhibit, especially with the upcoming move of their elephants to Werribee.

Adelaide have future plans to breed Pygmy Hippo (or they at least did when Obi arrived). They hope to breed their Brazilian Tapirs, but their Malayan pair will likely be their last.

 

[Swanson02]

Asian Elephants would be a much more effective use of Monarto's space. Long term, the region does need a designated bachelor facility for Asian elephants, and there's no reason why Monarto can't fulfil this.

Keep in mind, Monarto made this decision back in 2015, when Dubbo wasn't fully indulged in Asian Elephants yet, and Werribee had no plans for elephants in general.

Monarto may have thought they might've had support from Dubbo (who had already tried breeding them in the past), and even in the future, Werribee, which would fit nicely into their African Savannah. The fact that they've hold off making a firm decision about importing African elephants has payed off as now, Monarto are aware they'll be the only holder of this species in the region if they do decide to import them.

I will clarify when I chatted to a keeper after the White Rhino feeding talk on my 2nd to last visit, last year (before I joined zoo chat and realised how important fine details are ). I asked him about the possibility of elephants returning to Monarto and he stated that Asians were now more likely. This as stated by others, was likely due to the changing dynamics in the eastern states compared to 2015 and our chat was before the announcement of 3 pregnancies at Melbourne, which probably would have pushed the switch to Asians further. On the off chance Monarto did go against the tide and import Africans for the aesthetic I'd imagine they'd likely be excess animals scheduled to be culled in countries with overpopulation issues such as Eswatini or Namibia (which fits with their Etosha theme). This is all very far off though and much will definitely change.

Also, a speculative question, if Asian elephants are chosen do we believe Monarto would display them as an ambassador for Africans within Wild Africa, or would they be displayed in "Back from the Brink" section, or even better yet would Monarto go all the way and construct a Subcontinental Safari section with Blackbuck, Waterbuffalo, Indian Rhino and Asian elephant as the Spearhead.

Do you reckon gorillas could go into the giant panda exhibit after wang wang and funi have returned to China in 2024?

Considering the current geopolitical situation with China and the fact that the Chinese Government 'owns' all Giant Pandas, leasing them out to zoos like Adelaide. I could definitely see them terminating the contract in 2024. I have always been a bit critical of the Bamboo trail and the amount of space it swallows up for essentially two species in the region's most space-poor zoo.

 

[Zoofan15]

I will clarify when I chatted to a keeper after the White Rhino feeding talk on my 2nd to last visit, last year (before I joined zoo chat and realised how important fine details are ). I asked him about the possibility of elephants returning to Monarto and he stated that Asians were now more likely. This as stated by others, was likely due to the changing dynamics in the eastern states compared to 2015 and our chat was before the announcement of 3 pregnancies at Melbourne, which probably would have pushed the switch to Asians further. On the off chance Monarto did go against the tide and import Africans for the aesthetic I'd imagine they'd likely be excess animals scheduled to be culled in countries with overpopulation issues such as Eswatini or Namibia (which fits with their Etosha theme). This is all very far off though and much will definitely change.

Also, a speculative question, if Asian elephants are chosen do we believe Monarto would display them as an ambassador for Africans within Wild Africa, or would they be displayed in "Back from the Brink" section, or even better yet would Monarto go all the way and construct a Subcontinental Safari section with Blackbuck, Waterbuffalo, Indian Rhino and Asian elephant as the Spearhead.

That’s interesting to know and is in line with all our assessments that it makes sense for Monarto to hold Asian elephants. In addition to the breeding success at Dubbo and Werribee, Sydney Zoo have since imported Asian elephants. There was suggestion they could have worked on a joint import with Monarto and held bachelor bulls, but clearly they too have gone for the easier option (as well as the logical one).

Long term, I can see Monarto constructing a Subcontinental precinct and displaying Indian elephant, Indian rhinoceros and Indian antelope as you suggest, along with other relevant ungulates. Putting the elephants so far back in their masterplan will give them time to assess the progress of those species in the region and especially if support for Indian rhinoceros increases via holders at Melbourne and Perth, I’m sure Monarto would be eager to acquire them as their third rhino species.

 

[Zoofan15]

Considering the current geopolitical situation with China and the fact that the Chinese Government 'owns' all Giant Pandas, leasing them out to zoos like Adelaide. I could definitely see them terminating the contract in 2024. I have always been a bit critical of the Bamboo trail and the amount of space it swallows up for essentially two species in the region's most space-poor zoo.

I think it would be a smart business decision to can the Giant pandas.

Over the last decade, Adelaide Zoo have had the accolade of being the only zoo in the region to hold this species and the first to do so since 1988-1989, when a loaned pair toured Taronga, Melbourne and Auckland Zoo.

Everyone with the region who wants to see them had had 13 years to do so and their stay until 2024 will ensure another two years now borders are opening up for travel to resume.

The expense of loaning this species is unjustified beyond this point and will do little to enhance the zoo’s collection given there’s clearly nil to zipper chance of them ever breeding.

 

[Jambo]

Also, a speculative question, if Asian elephants are chosen do we believe Monarto would display them as an ambassador for Africans within Wild Africa, or would they be displayed in "Back from the Brink" section, or even better yet would Monarto go all the way and construct a Subcontinental Safari section with Blackbuck, Waterbuffalo, Indian Rhino and Asian elephant as the Spearhead.

I'd highly doubt Monarto would display Asian Elephants in their Wild Africa precinct. More likely a stand alone complex will be built, which will probably be part of the Back to Brink area, although of course this relies on whether Monarto decide to go with Indian Rhino in the future. Perth have plans for them, and Melbourne may, although it hasn't been confirmed as of yet. If Monarto do decide to join the Indian Rhino breeding program, it's likely an Asian Savannah precinct will be created with Asian Elephant, Blackbuck, Indian Rhino, Water Buffalo and other species of Asian deer.

Considering the current geopolitical situation with China and the fact that the Chinese Government 'owns' all Giant Pandas, leasing them out to zoos like Adelaide. I could definitely see them terminating the contract in 2024. I have always been a bit critical of the Bamboo trail and the amount of space it swallows up for essentially two species in the region's most space-poor zoo.

I definitely agree. The pandas are now much older, and there's almost zero to no chance of success for them unless a miracle occurs. If the Chinese Government terminates the contract; Adelaide have a great opportunity to use the space used for their Giant Panda for another high profile species, one being Gorilla. The space is there and the indoor enclosures and outdoor enclosure could easily be minorly renovated for Gorillas. Considering Red Pandas are still in the precinct, Adelaide could either considering moving them elsewhere or even just labelling the trail 'Species in danger' as both Gorillas and Red Pandas are endangered. Just an idea.

 

[Jambo]

I'd highly doubt Monarto would display Asian Elephants in their Wild Africa precinct. More likely a stand alone complex will be built, which will probably be part of the Back to Brink area, although of course this relies on whether Monarto decide to go with Indian Rhino in the future. Perth have plans for them, and Melbourne may, although it hasn't been confirmed as of yet. If Monarto do decide to join the Indian Rhino breeding program, it's likely an Asian Savannah precinct will be created with Asian Elephant, Blackbuck, Indian Rhino, Water Buffalo and other species of Asian deer.



I definitely agree. The pandas are now much older, and there's almost zero to no chance of success for them unless a miracle occurs. If the Chinese Government terminates the contract; Adelaide have a great opportunity to use the space used for their Giant Panda for another high profile species, one being Gorilla. The space is there and the indoor enclosures and outdoor enclosure could easily be minorly renovated for Gorillas. Considering Red Pandas are still in the precinct, Adelaide could either considering moving them elsewhere or even just labelling the trail 'Species in danger' as both Gorillas and Red Pandas are endangered. Just an idea.

I have a friend in Adelaide who's just told me that ever since the Pandas first arrived to Adelaide, they've had plans to replace them with Gorillas once the Pandas head back to China.

Obviously this is a very reasonable possibility, as the Pandas will likely be heading back to China in 2024. We very well could see a Gorilla troop at Adelaide very soon, and i'm told Adelaide hope to have a breeding group rather than a bachelor group, which (if needed) will be held at Monarto.

 

[Zoofan15]

I have a friend in Adelaide who's just told me that ever since the Pandas first arrived to Adelaide, they've had plans to replace them with Gorillas once the Pandas head back to China.

Obviously this is a very reasonable possibility, as the Pandas will likely be heading back to China in 2024. We very well could see a Gorilla troop at Adelaide very soon, and i'm told Adelaide hope to have a breeding group rather than a bachelor group, which (if needed) will be held at Monarto.

A short term investment in Giant pandas (15 years by 2024) will have served its purpose of drawing in crowds to see a iconic and novel species. The infrastructure to house them could easily be adapted to house gorillas, which long term are a more viable option for a zoo.

Zoos SA are to be commended for being the first zoo in the region to acquire pandas in 30 years and giving Australians a chance to see them. They took a chance by importing them and appear to have the sense to realise when they’ve run their course.

 

[Jambo]

A short term investment in Giant pandas (15 years by 2024) will have served its purpose of drawing in crowds to see a iconic and novel species. The infrastructure to house them could easily be adapted to house gorillas, which long term are a more viable option for a zoo.

Zoos SA are to be commended for being the first zoo in the region to acquire pandas in 30 years and giving Australians a chance to see them. They took a chance by importing them and appear to have the sense to realise when they’ve run their course.

Yes, Adelaide were never committed long term. The import was mainly to allow Australians to see Giant Panda, and obtain a major drawcard whilst also hoping of chances of breeding them. I doubt we'd see Adelaide extend the loan past 2024. Wang Wang and Fu Ni will almost be in their twenties with chances of breeding being very slim. I'm not sure the government will be willing to throw their money at a new pair, especially due to the failure of breeding them, and China and Australia political relations.

Gorillas would be an easy suit for the Panda complex. The only thing that would need to be changed (for me) is the height of the walls to ensure the Gorillas cannot escape, and also the addition of more lush vegetation. It should be easy though and should be the best option to replace such a high profile species.

 

[Zorro]

I have a friend in Adelaide who's just told me that ever since the Pandas first arrived to Adelaide, they've had plans to replace them with Gorillas once the Pandas head back to China.

Obviously this is a very reasonable possibility, as the Pandas will likely be heading back to China in 2024. We very well could see a Gorilla troop at Adelaide very soon, and i'm told Adelaide hope to have a breeding group rather than a bachelor group, which (if needed) will be held at Monarto.

If this is the case and time frame they would be wise to start looking around now

 

[Jambo]

If this is the case and time frame they would be wise to start looking around now

If they want a breeding group; then yes it would be wise to start looking overseas. Europe has a lot of surplus males, so I believe that would be easy. Importing females would be much harder. Due to space restrictions, it might work better for Adelaide to start with a breeding troop of 1.2.

New imports from overseas would highly beneficial to the region (especially any females born), who could help fill the female discrepancy our region is experiencing; each of our three zoos breeding them only have one viable female each.

 

[Zoofan15]

If this is the case and time frame they would be wise to start looking around now

There’s a large surplus of Western lowland gorillas (including females) in Europe assuming they want to hold a breeding troop.

If they imported founders around 2025 (following the departure of the pandas), it’d be another decade before the facility at Monarto was required to house Adelaide bred bachelors, giving them plenty of time.

 

[Zoofan15]

If this is the case and time frame they would be wise to start looking around now

Another thought…Taronga are also needing to accomodate the bachelor troop which will soon be created at their zoo. The assumption was that they’ll be the bachelor troop accommodated in plans for the Congo precinct (alongside the breeding troop); but should Adelaide be in a position to house gorillas first, they may receive them instead.

Adelaide could still house a breeding troop by transferring these males to Monarto as and when their gorilla facilities are up and running.

 

[Jambo]

There’s a large surplus of Western lowland gorillas (including females) in Europe assuming they want to hold a breeding troop.

If they imported founders around 2025 (following the departure of the pandas), it’d be another decade before the facility at Monarto was required to house Adelaide bred bachelors, giving them plenty of time.

Adelaide do intend to hold a breeding group. Importing from within the region is an option too (on the male side of things), but would be undesirable, especially considering there's plenty of males overseas that could introduce new genetics into the region.

Interesting note- I'm not sure if i've mentioned this on zoochat before, but around four or so years ago (before I joined zc), a Werribee keeper told me that one of their males was originally planned to be sent to Adelaide to start a breeding group over there. Adelaide have apparently planned to hold gorillas for a while now.

Of course Motoba would be the obvious candidate, being an already successful breeding male, but considering his age and heart condition I found this highly unlikely. Yakini seemed to be the best option to me. Despite being hand raised, he seems rather socially amiable and overtook his father in hierarchy in the past. Those plans though, were cancelled. Adelaide put the gorillas on the back-burner, and I don't see them going for one of the Werribee males again, especially considering their age now.

 

[Jambo]

Another thought…Taronga are also needing to accomodate the bachelor troop which will soon be created at their zoo. The assumption was that they’ll be the bachelor troop accommodated in plans for the Congo precinct (alongside the breeding troop); but should Adelaide be in a position to house gorillas first, they may receive them instead.

Adelaide could still house a breeding troop by transferring these males to Monarto as and when their gorilla facilities are up and running.

That's very true, although Adelaide are apparently very adamant about holding a breeding group rather than a bachelor group. They could possibly hold the boys from Taronga temporarily, before they're later sent on to Monarto. Keep in mind, Adelaide have two enclosures, and could easily manage both a small bachelor group and breeding group at the same time. In the future though, once the breeding group goes, the males will have to be moved to Monarto to open up more space at Adelaide.

 

[Zoofan15]

Adelaide do intend to hold a breeding group. Importing from within the region is an option too (on the male side of things), but would be undesirable, especially considering there's plenty of males overseas that could introduce new genetics into the region.

Interesting note- I'm not sure if i've mentioned this on zoochat before, but around four or so years ago (before I joined zc), a Werribee keeper told me that one of their males was originally planned to be sent to Adelaide to start a breeding group over there. Adelaide have apparently planned to hold gorillas for a while now.

Of course Motoba would be the obvious candidate, being an already successful breeding male, but considering his age and heart condition I found this highly unlikely. Yakini seemed to be the best option to me. Despite being hand raised, he seems rather socially amiable and overtook his father in hierarchy in the past. Those plans though, were cancelled. Adelaide put the gorillas on the back-burner, and I don't see them going for one of the Werribee males again, especially considering their age now.

If Adelaide Zoo could import unrelated gorillas from outside the region and breed, it could serve Taronga and Melbourne well as a point of exchange. Both zoos have daughters of their existing silverbacks in the troop that will need to be shifted on; but more critically, will need incoming females long term to balance out the gender ratio (especially in Melbourne’s troop).

I agree Werribee’s troop should remain as it is given their age. To have a cohesive troop of three silverbacks living together isn’t easy to achieve, so there’s a strong argument for not disrupting it.

 

[Zorro]

I believe the whole gorilla situation in the region appears to need a good look at we appear to be sliding backwards while numbers in Europe and the US are gaining

 

[Jambo]

If Adelaide Zoo could import unrelated gorillas from outside the region and breed, it could serve Taronga and Melbourne well as a point of exchange. Both zoos have daughters of their existing silverbacks in the troop that will need to be shifted on; but more critically, will need incoming females long term to balance out the gender ratio (especially in Melbourne’s troop).

I agree Werribee’s troop should remain as it is given their age. To have a cohesive troop of three silverbacks living together isn’t easy to achieve, so there’s a strong argument for not disrupting it.

I agree. Melbourne and Taronga could both send Kanzi and Fikiri to Adelaide, in exchange for two new females from overseas. It'll work much better in the long term, as Melbourne and Taronga need new females to help with their gender ratio, especially Melbourne once Yuska dies.

Motoba and Ganyeka do incredibly well together. Motoba adores Ganyeka. Meanwhile, Yakini is often dominant, and often chases the other males around. I was told a couple of years ago, Werribee was experiencing issues with Yakini and Ganyeka, but both have settled down now, and it was attributed to raging hormones.

 

[Zoofan15]

I agree. Melbourne and Taronga could both send Kanzi and Fikiri to Adelaide, in exchange for two new females from overseas. It'll work much better in the long term, as Melbourne and Taronga need new females to help with their gender ratio, especially Melbourne once Yuska dies.

Motoba and Ganyeka do incredibly well together. Motoba adores Ganyeka. Meanwhile, Yakini is often dominant, and often chases the other males around. I was told a couple of years ago, Werribee was experiencing issues with Yakini and Ganyeka, but both have settled down now, and it was attributed to raging hormones.

Depending on how long Adelaide take to organise imports, another option could be to transfer Kibale to Adelaide as their silverback and Taronga import an unrelated silverback to head up their troop. Additional offspring from Kibale and Mbeli would be of little value, so re-pairing them would enhance the genetics of the population.

Fikiri will be six or seven years old by the time Adelaide are ready to import, so could remain in Taronga’s troop as their second breeding female alongside Mbeli (with Frala and Johari as non reproductive females).

From here, Adelaide could receive Kanzi from Melbourne and collaborate with Adelaide to import two unrelated females - one of which would remain at Adelaide; the other of which would be sent to Melbourne in exchange for Kanzi. This would ensure the Kibabu descendants were better spread between the zoos/silverbacks.