All of the females were all around the same age too, so by the time they got older and become unreproductive for varius reasons, we had no viable females left as all had been exported overseas. Poor planning at it's best.
Future of Zoos SA zoos (Speculation)
- Thread starter Abbey
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All of the females were all around the same age too, so by the time they got older and become unreproductive for varius reasons, we had no viable females left as all had been exported overseas. Poor planning at it's best.
Kibabu had a long tenure of around 25 years as silverback of his troop, which meant there was no option for daughters to be retained; though females could have emigrated in had Melbourne been successful in breeding or they’d chosen to import from overseas.
Taronga have an excellent opportunity to form a succession in their troop by retaining Fikiri. This would give them the following females: 1981, 2000, 2003, 2019 to combine with a new silverback, who would breed with the youngest two.
This is exactly what I've thought all along - assuming that the pandas will be going back to China.
1. The exhibit looks like a snow leopard enclosure
2. The Himalayan theme works with the red pandas next door
3. Melbourne are breeding snow leopards - so getting a few would be easy
I can't believe there isn't more talk about this - it just seem like the perfect natural choice...
I thought they’d be the perfect fit. Interestingly @austrlain zoo gower reported Melbourne’s pair would be introduced again in the next year or two, which made me think there was a new facility that’d expressed an interest in holding them (perhaps Adelaide).
Adelaide are dedicated to geographical zones, so Snow leopard would be the natural choice for this area while ticking the box of a high profile crowd puller to replace the pandas.
At the time I thought it was bad policy to export Anguka and Safiri in particular, back to Europe. They would have had as much(or more) value staying and contributing to the Australian population. I think it was due to the 'strings attatched' to the original import of their group from Apenheul i.e. as being part of the EEP, they still decided what happened to any group members in future. So, irrespective of distance, they treated a move of animals from as far away as Australia almost the same as if it was just between two different zoos in Europe.
For the record, in Lisbon, Anguka(so far) has just a single, but genetically very valuable, male offspring, Jahari, while Safiri, sadly has died.
I think its time EEP redressed that mistake and allowed a couple more females at least, back into the Australian population.
Thank you for explaining this I also agree with you a better working relationship needs to be addressed
I suppose the export of Safiri was compensated for by allowing her two younger sisters (Kimya and Kipenzi) to remain in the region; but Frala’s last offspring with Kibabu were both male.
It’s a shame Frala is poorly represented through her offspring with her daughters struggling to breed and only one of her two offspring being reproductively viable. It’ll be interesting to see what the plans are for Fikiri, but I imagine she’ll breed at either Taronga (with a new silverback) or at another zoo within the region.
The discontinuation of Melbourne's breeding program really hurt the region too. Taronga was the only breeding facility, and with all three females being related, it only ensured that the breeding females within the region will soon all be related.
I'd like to see Melbourne send Kanzi away (maybe she could go to Taronga), and restart their program with one or two new females.
Agree with this. He was a normal, well-socialised male having been group/mother-raised in Jersey. Got along with all the females, even the oddballs like Julia & G.Anne. Unfortunately the planners sometimes just look at the genetics on paper rather than the actual reality/behaviour of the animals 'on the ground' so to speak- so they removed a completely compatable male from his family group- I thought that was a bad mistake (and a cruel move for Motaba too). There then followed years of non-activity in the group with poor old Rigo 'in charge'. That's where the problems started I believe.
Snow Leopards could be another replacement option for the Pandas. The climate is suitable, and the enclosures would require minimal renovations.
Kang Ju and Miska at Melbourne are both now six years old, so I was told by a keeper when they initially arrived, they hoped to breed them on an almost regular basis (every two to three years). One of them, is very genetically valuable, can't remember which, but i'm leaning towards Kang Ju?
Although Snow Leopards would be the best replacement, i'd still imagine Adelaide would at least enquire about Gorillas first, a species very high profile, and one they've wanted for quite some time. If Gorillas can't be done, then at least Snow Leopards are an easier, effective second option.
I’m thinking it may be best for Kimya to remain in the troop for another decade as a non breeding female before assessing her options. She’s not genetically valuable and is too similar to Mbeli genetically to bring value to Taronga’s troop. If Kimya isn’t able to conceive again, she’d at least be support to her mother in the face of new incoming females, who’d gain status by breeding with Otana.
More by incident than design (Mzuri wouldn’t breed with them), Jersey did the same with Kishka and her daughter.
Considering the representation of Kibale already, i'd definitely see him moving into a bachelor troop in the future with his three sons. Fabumi would be favourable to be sent on in the future to head up a troop, but I can see Kibale living out his years with Mjukee and Mwamba much like Motaba and his sons at Werribee.
Taronga could then import a new male for breeding with Mbeli and Fikiri. The only thing here is Johari. I'm wondering how the next silverback will tolerate her. If it dosen't go well, maybe she could be sent to Mogo to live with G Anne.
Due to Melbourne being low on numbers, i'm sure we won't see Kanzi being exported soon, unless Melbourne can receive at least two females in return. I'm sure it will happen. Covid has delayed quite a lot of imports, but once Yuska dies and Melbourne is down to three, I definitely see Melbourne looking into other options in regards to importing females from overseas.
Melbourne won’t allow Kanzi to leave until new females arrive. If they did there’d be no contingency for when Yuska dies and Kimya would be left in a 1.1 pair which she’d find highly stressful.
I’m actually wondering if Kimya’s inability to conceive is caused by the stress of the only support females in the troop being her young daughter and a female on the fringes of the troop. Females don’t usually conceive in 1.1 pairs and Kimya may perceive her situation as this.
I have thought this too. I don't think it's coincidental that she conceived when the group was larger but hasn't since. I wouldn't be surprised if having another adult female around (other than elderly Yuska) might help things along.
It’s possible that as Kipenzi matures, she may fulfil this role. She was still a juvenile when Kimya came off contraception and is now entering adolescence; though there’s multiple reasons why they should import at least one other female in addition.
I’m otherwise struggling to explain how a prime aged female who is otherwise reproductively healthy is failing to conceive. She is quite a sensitive female (like her mother) and similarly failed to conceive when held in a 1.1 pair with Kibale at Taronga.
Especially with such a picky and often aggressive silverback like Otana in charge. It's very stressful for Kimya as she's his only focus of positive attention.
Otana has even become aggressive to his own daughter at times, and i've witnessed Kimya and Kanzi running to Yuska for 'safety'. Unfortunately Yuska takes the brunt of his beatings as she tries to stand up for the others. I've seen Otana chase Kimya who then ran to Yuska and clutched at her back whilst Otana began chasing Yuska, attempting to hit her. Whilst Kimya is Otana's favourite, Yuska is definitely the more dominant. Kimya is a very sensitive, quiet female, hence her name, which means quiet one in Swahili.
Otana has been a poor silverback from the start. It’s a shame as he’d do little better in another troop and for welfare reasons, it’d be inhumane to keep in isolation as they did with Rigo. Retiring him with sons into a bachelor troop isn’t an option either given his sole offspring is a daughter.
Importing well socialised mother raised gorillas should give Kimya some support and would hopefully balance out the troop dynamics. Let’s hope this happens sooner rather than later. Yuska is an elderly female and it’s a shame she’s having to endure this in her final years. It’s also not ideal for Kipenzi to witness this behaviour from a silverback if she’s to develop into a socially well adjusted female capable of positive interactions with her own silverback one day.
Introducing Otana (a young blackback with raging hormones) into a troop with socially deprived females to be a silverback for the first time was, as we know now, the wrong choice. No matter how much they thought Otana's personality would be best for Melbourne's troop, not many young blackbacks would be able to successfully head up an unstable troop like Melbourne's for the first time. Motaba was really one of a kind. It would've been best to just retire Motoba and the girls, and start a new troop from scratch. The fact that they've continued with the females has just given them more and more problems over the years.
Otana could be tried in another troop with more socially amiable females. He's gotten along decently with Kimya (the only female of sort he's been introduced to yet). If this isn't the best option, then unfortunately he may have to continue as Melbourne's silverback until he has sons in the future.
So who are the experts running this situation why is this allowed to happen it sounds like its run by someone with no idea