Future of Zoos SA zoos (Speculation)

[Zoofan15]

So who are the experts running this situation why is this allowed to happen it sounds like its run by someone with no idea

Unfortunately on paper, Otana seemed like the ideal candidate. He was mother raised in a troop led by a successful silverback who sired many offspring. Interestingly none of his half brothers have gone on to lead breeding troops/produce offspring, though this may be circumstantial.

Otana’s inexperience can be partly blamed for his behaviour, though many males his age have successfully led troops including Kibabu who was 12 years old and Kibale who was 13 years old.

 

[Jambo]

So who are the experts running this situation why is this allowed to happen it sounds like its run by someone with no idea

I think, like @Zoofan15 said, they care more about genetics rather than personality clashes, and the overall social capabilities of a gorilla.

They had no idea Otana would be such a terrible silverback, but should've made the effective changes once this was discovered. Julia and G Anne, who were socially awkward, should've been moved away.

Imports are for sure in the book for Melbourne. They need two females, and need is an understatement here. Without some more females, Melbourne's breeding program could fall into a heap and they could very well be down to just three gorillas in a few years time, and a female who is struggling to breed due to the stress placed on her by Otana.

 

[Jambo]

Unfortunately on paper, Otana seemed like the ideal candidate. He was mother raised in a troop led by a successful silverback who sired many offspring. Interestingly none of his half brothers have gone on to lead breeding troops/produce offspring, though this may be circumstantial.

Otana’s inexperience can be partly blamed for his behaviour, though many males his age have successfully led troops including Kibabu who was 12 years old and Kibale who was 13 years old.

Otana was a perfect choice in every way. His over aggressive nature though, was something he didn't begin showing until after he was at Melbourne. It could've been because he was still a young male and was inexperinced. Although the main problem would've been that he was getting annoyed struggling to maintain a troop with two females who were running riot.

Julia thought she was a chimp, and didn't understand even basic gorilla communication. This was, unfortunately what cost her her life in the end.

 

[Pertinax]

Otana was a perfect choice in every way. His over aggressive nature though, was something he didn't begin showing until after he was at Melbourne. It could've been because he was still a young male and was inexperinced. Although the main problem would've been that he was getting annoyed struggling to maintain a troop with two females who were running riot.

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Otana is just one in a long line of examples of males that were introduced to be group leaders either at too young an age, or to females who are socially inept- in Otana's case it was some of each I think. Several males in Europe have suffered similar problems, even to the extent of getting shifted around several zoos because of it. Melbourne's own-born Buzandi is another example- he was certainly problematic when he first arrived at Hanover in Germany. BUT the good news is they have nearly always grown out of it as they mature. In Europe both Buzandi and another former problem male- Youande at Vallee de Singes, are now cited as model family silverbacks and 'superdads'- calm and benevolent to their females and offspring. Its to be hoped Otana will follow suit as he ages, but he does really need a bigger/expanded group to help that process happen.

I'm still surprised at how the EEP allows the transfer of these younger age group males, though both Otana and Kisane at Mogo were acquired from Howletts who are really a law unto themselves in this respect- if they are willing to supply a zoo with a particular new male (whatever his age) then they just go ahead.

 

[Zoofan15]

Otana is just one in a long line of examples of males that were introduced to be group leaders either at too young an age, or to females who are socially inept- in Otana's case it was some of each I think. Several males in Europe have suffered similar problems, even to the extent of getting shifted around several zoos because of it. Melbourne's own-born Buzandi is another example- he was certainly problematic when he first arrived at Hanover in Germany. BUT the good news is they have nearly always grown out of it as they mature. In Europe both Buzandi and another former problem male- Youande at Vallee de Singes, are now cited as model family silverbacks and 'superdads'- calm and benevolent to their females and offspring. Its to be hoped Otana will follow suit as he ages, but he does really need a bigger/expanded group to help that process happen.

I'm still surprised at how the EEP allows the transfer of these younger age group males, though both Otana and Kisane at Mogo were acquired from Howletts who are really a law unto themselves- if they are willing to supply a zoo with a new male (whatever his age) then they just go ahead.

It sounds like Howletts were keen to shift adolescent males on and seized the opportunity to export them as soon as they got a chance.

Kibabu was a successful silverback from Howletts, though he had the advantage of joining a troop with mother raised females. The eldest female in his troop was only 17 years old upon his introduction and she was very sweet natured.

Kibale similarly has proved himself as a successful silverback in accepting Johari, even if she remains on the fringes of the troop. Apparently he’s slow to discipline Mbeli for bullying the other females, which is a sign of the inexperience you mention @Pertinax. Hopefully this will come with age.

 

[Swanson02]

Samorn died in 1994, so I assume this area has long since been repurposed for rhinoceros and depending on its location may be part of the facilities housing the incoming rhinos from the Australian Rhino Project.

Samoorn's old exhibit now interchangeably houses Monarto's two black rhinos and is their main display paddock. I imagine it will remain for the black rhino as they have both extended it (early this year) and renovated it numerous times since the 90s including partially filling in the slippery moats which were the cause of Samorns death.

Adelaide are dedicated to geographical zones, so Snow leopard would be the natural choice for this area while ticking the box of a high profile crowd puller to replace the pandas.

I don't think the geography element is a big issue, red pandas are easily moveable and I could see Adelaide swapping them with the Colobus Monkeys to create a "Primates of Africa" trail in conjunction with the anticipated Gorillas.

I also was always under the impression that Gorillas would arrive at Monarto before Adelaide as the volunteer bus speakers always mention it in their future plans spiel. It's funny because one time a woman on the bus loudly said in reply "Thank god they are coming here, not Adelaide that place is cruel! That's why we don't spend our money there!" She obviously had no idea that they are part of the same organization.

 

[Zoofan15]

Samoorn's old exhibit now interchangeably houses Monarto's two black rhinos and is their main display paddock. I imagine it will remain for the black rhino as they have both extended it (early this year) and renovated it numerous times since the 90s including partially filling in the slippery moats which were the cause of Samorns death.



I don't think the geography element is a big issue, red pandas are easily moveable and I could see Adelaide swapping them with the Colobus Monkeys to create a "Primates of Africa" trail in conjunction with the anticipated Gorillas.

I also was always under the impression that Gorillas would arrive at Monarto before Adelaide as the volunteer bus speakers always mention it in their future plans spiel. It's funny because one time a woman on the bus loudly said in reply "Thank god they are coming here, not Adelaide that place is cruel! That's why we don't spend our money there!" She obviously had no idea that they are part of the same organization.

That’s interesting. The upgrade to the black rhinoceros paddock at Monarto indicates a long term intention to house them there, though I note they’re a geographical outlier with regards to the Indian antelope and Persian fallow deer.

The elephants are still along way off in Monarto’s plans (possibly a decade or more), which would tie in well with the need to rehouse bachelor bulls born at Dubbo and Werribee around this time.

Since Zoos SAA have stated their intention is to hold a bachelor troop of gorilla at Monarto, they may well be considering transferring the adolescent males from Taronga. If the exhibit is still three years, I imagine Kibale would transfer (retire) with his sons to allow them to import an unrelated male; but this wouldn’t be possible any earlier due to Fikiri’s age (three years old).

 

[Zoofan15]

I don't think the geography element is a big issue, red pandas are easily moveable and I could see Adelaide swapping them with the Colobus Monkeys to create a "Primates of Africa" trail in conjunction with the anticipated Gorillas.

This may well be the only option for retaining gorillas given their space in the African precinct appears to have been reallocated to giraffes.

Personally I think the retention of giraffes is a disappointing decision considering all zoos have an African Savannah and there’s no room at Adelaide to create anything on the scale you’d see at Monarto. It’s one of the few faults in an otherwise exceptional masterplan that sees the two zoos complimenting each other with realistic decisions around what species they’ll hold.

The red pandas could be accommodated in the Jewels of Asia precinct which is bordered by the west by the Into Africa precinct by decreasing the foot print of the space originally allocated to the gorillas.

 

[Jambo]

That’s interesting. The upgrade to the black rhinoceros paddock at Monarto indicates a long term intention to house them there, though I note they’re a geographical outlier with regards to the Indian antelope and Persian fallow deer.

That area is planned to be the 'Back to Brink area' with endangered species such as Black Rhino and Prezwalskis Horse and Bison.

Since Zoos SAA have stated their intention is to hold a bachelor troop of gorilla at Monarto, they may well be considering transferring the adolescent males from Taronga. If the exhibit is still three years, I imagine Kibale would transfer (retire) with his sons to allow them to import an unrelated male; but this wouldn’t be possible any earlier due to Fikiri’s age (three years old).

Monarto won't be holding Gorillas until at least a little down the line. I'd say there's still around five or so years until a permanent decision is made, and it solely relies on whether Adelaide end up getting gorillas. If they do, I can see Monarto going for a bachelor group, whereas if they don't Zoos SA may look into holding the breeding group over at Monarto, although this may really depend on whether the region is in need of a bachelor facility versus another breeding one.

This may well be the only option for retaining gorillas given their space in the African precinct appears to have been reallocated to giraffes.

I like the idea of a 'Primates of Africa' themed trail. Considering they have two Panda enclosures; they could easily hold both Mandrill and Gorillas in them. Black and White Colobus could then easily slot into the Red Panda enclosures.

Personally I think the retention of giraffes is a disappointing decision considering all zoos have an African Savannah and there’s no room at Adelaide to create anything on the scale you’d see at Monarto. It’s one of the few faults in an otherwise exceptional masterplan that sees the two zoos complimenting each other with realistic decisions around what species they’ll hold.

I think its generally a shame too. The current Giraffe exhibit is tiny, so it makes sense that they'll be using the area initially for the gorillas, to give the Giraffes some more space. Giraffes are such a popular and iconic species, and maybe Zoos SA could've used that to their advantage, as people would have to travel to Monarto to see Giraffes, giving them another point of difference.

 

[Zoofan15]

I like the idea of a 'Primates of Africa' themed trail. Considering they have two Panda enclosures; they could easily hold both Mandrill and Gorillas in them. Black and White Colobus could then easily slot into the Red Panda enclosures.

Personally, I’d use both panda exhibits for the gorillas. Neither exhibit is massive and they could have the run of both with the option of using one as a separation exhibit.

A separation exhibit has been invaluable at Taronga for managing gorillas seperate from the main troop for a short period of time e.g. prior to export; or for undertaking introductions of a new gorilla to the troop. Similarly at Mogo, one of the females had to live separately from the troop for a while. The alternative would be rotating the groups on and off exhibit (which isn’t ideal).

Browse and enrichment items could be placed throughout both exhibits to encourage foraging behaviour and movement between the two areas, making it an enriching experience for the troop.

It’d also allow them to hold a larger troop, even if some of the females are non breeding as they are at other zoos in the region.

 

[marmolady]

I don't believe one of the panda enclosures would be sufficient for a group of gorillas, the whole area would need to be used.

 

[Zoofan15]

I don't believe one of the panda enclosures would be sufficient for a group of gorillas, the whole area would need to be used.

Utilising the whole area would allow them to build a world class exhibit versus an adequate exhibit. With placements of gorillas so unpredictable these days, it may also be wise to plan reproduction around the idea that the zoo may have to retain offspring long term.

A large exhibit could hold an expanded troop with daughters of the silverback into adulthood; while the secondary exhibit could be used to manage a bachelor troop of his sons until a permanent home is found.

 

[Jambo]

I don't believe one of the panda enclosures would be sufficient for a group of gorillas, the whole area would need to be used.

I've never visited Adelaide, so your opinion definitely has stronger value.

I've just looked up photos and especially one of the Panda enclosures looks rather small, so it seems if Gorillas did arrive, they'd need to be given run of both enclosures.

Adelaide also has the benefit of having those nice, indoor enclosures, which could be combined to create a nice indoor dayroom that the gorillas could be kept in if needed.

 

[Pertinax]

It sounds like Howletts were keen to shift adolescent males on and seized the opportunity to export them as soon as they got a chance.

Kibabu was a successful silverback from Howletts, though he had the advantage of joining a troop with mother raised females. The eldest female in his troop was only 17 years old upon his introduction and she was very sweet natured.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that- they are picky about where their gorillas are sent to i.e. what the accomodation will be like (they've refused a move in the past because of that), but don't seem to attatch any similar importance to the age of the animal. As you said, its another adolescent male successfully rehomed. At Howletts/PL it seems very much a matter of chance as to where their young males end up and I think it largely depends on what is available at the time males need to leave their natal group. For example, of three recent males, one(Kisane) was sent to Australia, one joined one of their own male groups and a third went to Africa!

Kibabu joined a group with several very normally socialised females at Apenheul. I think Otana's problem would have been far less if he'd been able to do the same at Melbourne, so I don't think the blame lies with him really.

 

[Swanson02]

I don't believe one of the panda enclosures would be sufficient for a group of gorillas, the whole area would need to be used.

Definitely agree, I also believe the exhibits may need a bit of terraforming to remove some of the rocks and expand the flat open spaces for gorillas. Otherwise, it would be a relatively cheap conversion (all that bamboo can remain). It makes me wonder if this was Adelaide's intention all along, a backup just in case the Pandas fell through. The exhibit's plan does seem rather versatile and convertible.

I think its generally a shame too. The current Giraffe exhibit is tiny, so it makes sense that they'll be using the area initially for the gorillas, to give the Giraffes some more space. Giraffes are such a popular and iconic species, and maybe Zoos SA could've used that to their advantage, as people would have to travel to Monarto to see Giraffes, giving them another point of difference.

I agree but unfortunately, the general South Australian public was outraged when ZoosSA mentioned the potential of permanently moving their lions and giraffes to Monarto a few years ago. They are both zoo 'staples' and like meerkats draw a crowd and many people still find the 2-hour round trip down the Freeway too long.

Adelaide is also phasing out a few species so that should free up space too. Once the Malayan tapirs pass the Brazilians or the capybara could be inserted under the
Moreton Bay fig. I think they are committed to Brazilian tapir and probably will collaborate with Darling Downs on getting more. I think Adelaide has the foundations for a world-class South American area including Capybara, Mara, Brazilian Tapir, Maned wolf, Macaws, Iguana, Anaconda, Coati, Squirrel monkeys, and a bunch of Tamarins. A Jaguar or a Spectacled Bear enclosure would be the cherry on top (albeit unrealistic). Furthermore, both the Ring-tailed lemurs, Baboon, and potentially Serval are being moved down to Monarto and we also know the Sea lions will be transferred once Adelaide can find a taker.

Unfortunately, Adelaide has always been trapped by the Torrens River to its back, so hasn't been able to expand into more parklands or suburbs like many of the region's other city zoos as the years went on. I find it funny that by area the region's smallest and largest zoos are both run by the same organization.

 

[Zoofan15]

Kibabu joined a group with several very normally socialised females at Apenheul. I think Otana's problem would have been far less if he'd been able to do the same at Melbourne, so I don't think the blame lies with him really.

That’s true as Julia and G-Ann were placed with several silverbacks. Jambo (a middle aged silverback) accepted both of them; and Kibabu (a middle aged silverback) accepted G-Ann. Julia was attacked by both Mzuri and Otana, who were barely out of adolescence.

Kibabu joined the Apenheul troop in 1988 at the age of 11 years. His females were Mouila aged 16, Kriba aged 9 and Frala aged 7; but what I only learnt a few years ago was there was a fourth female.

Dalila (who was the same age of Mouila) joined his troop in 1991 and gave birth to a daughter in April 1993. Following the death of this infant at six months of age, Dalila was removed and joined Bongo’s troop, producing several infants.

 

[Zoofan15]

Definitely agree, I also believe the exhibits may need a bit of terraforming to remove some of the rocks and expand the flat open spaces for gorillas. Otherwise, it would be a relatively cheap conversion (all that bamboo can remain). It makes me wonder if this was Adelaide's intention all along, a backup just in case the Pandas fell through. The exhibit's plan does seem rather versatile and convertible.

I think Adelaide has the foundations for a world-class South American area including Capybara, Mara, Brazilian Tapir, Maned wolf, Macaws, Iguana, Anaconda, Coati, Squirrel monkeys, and a bunch of Tamarins. A Jaguar or a Spectacled Bear enclosure would be the cherry on top (albeit unrealistic). Furthermore, both the Ring-tailed lemurs, Baboon, and potentially Serval are being moved down to Monarto and we also know the Sea lions will be transferred once Adelaide can find a taker.

I believe the Giant panda exhibit was constructed with the intention of only holding them for 10 years. I imagine the aim from the beginning was to capitalise on holding the first pandas Australasia had seen in 20 years by drawing in domestic tourists. If they could have bred, that would have been a bonus. They were surely aware the novelty would wear off and a more cost effective species would have to be found. Perhaps the extension of the loan until 2024 was in response to delays in the masterplan (i.e. they know gorillas will be years away).

Constructing a South American precinct is a smart move considering it’ll be a point of difference. African precincts open themselves up to compare and contrast with other regional zoos and only a handful can come out of top. South America is relatively unrepresented and has the potential to be spectacular. I agree Jaguar would complete such a precinct in a way only Jaguar could. It’s such a shame they’re not a viable option.

 

[Jambo]

Definitely agree, I also believe the exhibits may need a bit of terraforming to remove some of the rocks and expand the flat open spaces for gorillas. Otherwise, it would be a relatively cheap conversion (all that bamboo can remain). It makes me wonder if this was Adelaide's intention all along, a backup just in case the Pandas fell through. The exhibit's plan does seem rather versatile and convertible.



I agree but unfortunately, the general South Australian public was outraged when ZoosSA mentioned the potential of permanently moving their lions and giraffes to Monarto a few years ago. They are both zoo 'staples' and like meerkats draw a crowd and many people still find the 2-hour round trip down the Freeway too long.

Adelaide is also phasing out a few species so that should free up space too. Once the Malayan tapirs pass the Brazilians or the capybara could be inserted under the
Moreton Bay fig. I think they are committed to Brazilian tapir and probably will collaborate with Darling Downs on getting more. I think Adelaide has the foundations for a world-class South American area including Capybara, Mara, Brazilian Tapir, Maned wolf, Macaws, Iguana, Anaconda, Coati, Squirrel monkeys, and a bunch of Tamarins. A Jaguar or a Spectacled Bear enclosure would be the cherry on top (albeit unrealistic). Furthermore, both the Ring-tailed lemurs, Baboon, and potentially Serval are being moved down to Monarto and we also know the Sea lions will be transferred once Adelaide can find a taker.

Unfortunately, Adelaide has always been trapped by the Torrens River to its back, so hasn't been able to expand into more parklands or suburbs like many of the region's other city zoos as the years went on. I find it funny that by area the region's smallest and largest zoos are both run by the same organization.

I am told the whole plan all along was to replace the Pandas with gorillas, which makes sense as the exhibits barely require any renovations. Yes, the enclosures are rather rocky, but I don't think this would be a major problem for the gorillas. There is also a decent enough flat space for them but if they wish, they could easily remove some of the rocks.

Keeping Giraffes and Lions is a pity. Lions are a key, popular species, but hey you can also see Tigers and Leopards at Adelaide which you can't see at Monarto. Giraffes also take up too much space, which is vital to a small city zoo like Adelaide. The public complain about small enclosures for animals, and then are angered by decreasing collections. Unfortunately city zoos struggle to find something in between.

Adelaide is definitely switching up their collection to ensure they have only the species they want and need, especially due to the space constraints they have. Malayan Tapirs will be a definitive phase out. Lemurs and Baboons are confirmed to be heading to Monarto. I can species such as Serval following along as well. I don't see how they haven't managed to find a suit for their Sea Lions though yet. Melbourne don't have the space, Taronga are also pretty full to, but Sea world and Coffs Harbour should.

Adelaide could create a world-class South American area. And it would be the first of its kind in the region too. A dome featuring Tamarins, Squirrel Monkeys, Macaws, Capybara, Mara, Coati and more bird species would be amazing. Adding to that, we could see enclosures for Brazilian Tapir and Maned Wolf. Jaguar would be a dream, but other zoos within the region would need to hop on board with them too.

 

[Swanson02]

South America is relatively unrepresented and has the potential to be spectacular. I agree Jaguar would complete such a precinct in a way only Jaguar could. It’s such a shame they’re not a viable option.

What are the chances of Spectacled bears, river otters, Giant anteaters, or giant armadillos? I know they are all relatively unrealistic as no other zoos in the region have them (making a sustainable breeding program challenging). I heard somewhere that Pumas were permanently banned from importation due to the "wild cat" cryptids in Victoria. What do we think are the most/least likely options?

 

[Jambo]

That’s true as Julia and G-Ann were placed with several silverbacks. Jambo (a middle aged silverback) accepted both of them; and Kibabu (a middle aged silverback) accepted G-Ann. Julia was attacked by both Mzuri and Otana, who were barely out of adolescence.

Kibabu joined the Apenheul troop in 1988 at the age of 11 years. His females were Mouila aged 16, Kriba aged 9 and Frala aged 7; but what I only learnt a few years ago was there was a fourth female.

Dalila (who was the same age of Mouila) joined his troop in 1991 and gave birth to a daughter in April 1993. Following the death of this infant at six months of age, Dalila was removed and joined Bongo’s troop, producing several infants.

Jambo and his son, Motoba were very special. Accepting both Julia and G Anne into their troop was not something a normal silverback could handle.

G-Anne, who was hand raised, was a little in between. She was accepted by some silverbacks, but not by others. It seems Otana was the only one who's had problems with G Anne before. He didn't accept G Anne back into the troop after she went for a health check. No one, even the keepers, are really sure why he did this, although one that I talked to a while back believed he may have perceived her as a threat, especially due to her short disappearance. G-Anne was accepted by Kibabu once she was sent to Mogo, but I don't think they've even risked introducing her to Kisane as of yet. As of late last year, she was still living by herself.