Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

[Zoofan15]

I agree as you can see from this image they imported a lot of young elephants (likely stripped away from their mothers), probably because they were easier to transport. The exhibit doesn't seem atrocious but I definitely do wonder how their barns and veterinary care are.

I know Australian Zoos weren't much better when we imported our Asian elephants in the 2000s but at least the zoos in China had the opportunity to import whole multigenerational herds with ages ranging down from elderly matriarchs to young calves.

The other thing to consider is that while there’s reproductive assessments that can be done in this species (the Thai imports supposedly underwent one), there’s no guarantees - case in point Tang Mo (1999) has never been able to conceive.

By importing adult African elephants that are proven breeders (alongside juveniles and calves for succession), it puts any breeding programme in the best stead. It also creates a healthier herd dynamic as you’re not throwing together elephants that otherwise wouldn’t be living together (a source of conflict in several European zoos).

 

[Zoofan15]

As for Kruger, I def think they can supply zoos with spare young cows from their park. However, I'd add a facility to tame elephants down from the wild over the course of a few months so that the culture shock isn't as hard on them, given how brainy elephants are

The good thing about the Kruger situation is the overpopulation is on such a scale, that there will be an abundance of elephants to pick and choose from re. sourcing a multigenerational herd.

Like you say, the consideration here will be the culture shock to the elephants of living in the wild to being exported to zoos - albeit open range ones. Taronga Western Plains Zoo faced a similar challenge when they imported black rhinoceros in the 1990’s. This adjustment will be most keenly felt by the adolescent and adults. The solution here (as it was for the rhinos) could be to create a boma or half way facility like you suggest.

 

[tigris115]

The good thing about the Kruger situation is the overpopulation is on such a scale, that there will be an abundance of elephants to pick and choose from re. sourcing a multigenerational herd.

Like you say, the consideration here will be the culture shock to the elephants of living in the wild to being exported to zoos - albeit open range ones. Taronga Western Plains Zoo faced a similar challenge when they imported black rhinoceros in the 1990’s. This adjustment will be most keenly felt by the adolescent and adults. The solution here (as it was for the rhinos) could be to create a boma or half way facility like you suggest.

Yeah I got the idea from how Houston got 3 white rhinos from SA that eventually went to White Oak

 

[Zoofan15]

Yeah I got the idea from how Houston got 3 white rhinos from SA that eventually went to White Oak

Approved Countries for Import

I’ve looked it up and the countries Australia can currently import elephants from are as follows:

Indonesia, Singapore and Thailand, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Portugal, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States.

Apparently South Africa isn’t currently one of the approved countries that Australia can import elephants from. This isn’t to say this won’t be reviewed and indeed the Bovid IRA (2021) permits the import of species from South Africa. With the focus of the region previously being on Asian elephants, this is one of the likely reasons it wasn’t pushed for in the last review.

Alternatively, the rules state the elephant must have been born or lived in one the above countries for 12 months, meaning if they were allowed to import from South Africa, the elephants could then be imported via them as a third party. Taronga previously did this with an Eastern bongo in 2013.

 

[Swanson02]

From social media, it appears that Anjalee has now been introduced to both Sabai and Pathi Harn. This is not a 100% confirmation though.

 

[Zoofan15]

From social media, it appears that Anjalee has now been introduced to both Sabai and Pathi Harn. This is not a 100% confirmation though.

I saw the video of Sabai with the matriarchal herd (including Anjalee), but couldn’t see anything of Pathi Harn and Anjalee together?

If Anjalee has been introduced to Pathi Harn, this could be an indication they’ll be pairing them for mating in the near future. As of a few months ago, they were undecided which bull to use; but I’ve long favoured the choice of Pathi Harn given Gung will be well represented through Luk Chai and has another son in addition.

 

[Swanson02]

I saw the video of Sabai with the matriarchal herd (including Anjalee), but couldn’t see anything of Pathi Harn and Anjalee together?

If Anjalee has been introduced to Pathi Harn, this could be an indication they’ll be pairing them for mating in the near future. As of a few months ago, they were undecided which bull to use; but I’ve long favoured the choice of Pathi Harn given Gung will be well represented through Luk Chai and has another son in addition.

I saw a picture that included Sabai, Pathi Harn, Thong Dee (could have been Anjalee), and Kanlaya, without the other two cows. To me, it would seem very strange to isolate just Porntip and Anjalee from the rest (especially Porntip from Kanlaya) and it would be even more strange to isolate just one by themselves. So I assume they were all sharing the yard and the other two (Anjalee and Porntip) were off view.

The only scenario I could think of is the keepers focusing on Anjalee's relationship with Porntip. Housing just the two of them separately. Maybe it is a test to gauge how accepting Porntip is of Anjalee without distractions? That doesn't make sense as they already appear to be close, feeding together. Still, it is a very strange set of combinations, which leads me to believe they had all just recently been introduced.

 

[Zoofan15]

I saw a picture that included Sabai, Pathi Harn, Thong Dee (could have been Anjalee), and Kanlaya, without the other two cows. To me, it would seem very strange to isolate just Porntip and Anjalee from the rest (especially Porntip from Kanlaya) and it would be even more strange to isolate just one by themselves. So I assume they were all sharing the yard and the other two (Anjalee and Porntip) were off view.

The only scenario I could think of is the keepers focusing on Anjalee's relationship with Porntip. Housing just the two of them separately. Maybe it is a test to gauge how accepting Porntip is of Anjalee without distractions? That doesn't make sense as they already appear to be close, feeding together. Still, it is a very strange set of combinations, which leads me to believe they had all just recently been introduced.

If Kanlaya was in with Pathi Harn, I can guarantee Porntip would have been in the same exhibit (albeit out of view of the shot). Pathi Harn has continued to visit the matriarchal herd since the birth of Kanlaya (though it was noted the cows were very guarded of their calves when he was around), so this grouping has only added an additional cow (Anjalee).

It’s my belief Thong Dee will conceive prior to Anjalee conceiving to demonstrate maternal care of a neonate shortly before Anjalee gives birth. With this in mind, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a grouping of Pathi Harn, Thong Dee, Anjalee and Sabai in the near future - with Pathi Harn mating Thong Dee; and Anjalee and Sabai included to familiarise them with the reproductive process.

 

[Zoofan15]

Proposed Breeding Plan for Dubbo (2022-2030)

As outlined above, it makes sense for Thong Dee to conceive (ideally this year), just ahead of Anjalee conceiving her first calf. This would see them both give birth in 2024.

I would identify Thong Dee as the preferred option over Porntip not just because of the time that’s passed since their respective last births in 2016 and 2018; but also because Porntip has previously been identified as a stronger source of maternal support than Thong Dee. By having Porntip freed up, she’ll be available to assist Anjalee versus Thong Dee, who will be tied up with her own newborn.

If Porntip gives birth two years later in 2026, Kanlaya will be eight years old and able to provide more practical support to her mother than she would at six years of age. Kanlaya is close to Anjalee and would already have had some experience through assisting her. While Porntip is the matriarch and an excellent mother, Kanlaya’s support would still be valuable given the other cows would have two year olds by this stage and largely be unable to assist.

Anjalee’s next birth could then be timed for 2030 (six year gap), which could be tied in with Kanlaya giving birth to her first calf at the age of 12 years. Porntip would have a four year old by then and able to offer some assistance to her daughter.

 

[Polar bear fan]

I saw a picture that included Sabai, Pathi Harn, Thong Dee (could have been Anjalee), and Kanlaya, without the other two cows. To me, it would seem very strange to isolate just Porntip and Anjalee from the rest (especially Porntip from Kanlaya) and it would be even more strange to isolate just one by themselves. So I assume they were all sharing the yard and the other two (Anjalee and Porntip) were off view.

The only scenario I could think of is the keepers focusing on Anjalee's relationship with Porntip. Housing just the two of them separately. Maybe it is a test to gauge how accepting Porntip is of Anjalee without distractions? That doesn't make sense as they already appear to be close, feeding together. Still, it is a very strange set of combinations, which leads me to believe they had all just recently been introduced.

It’s also possible they were with Gung isn’t it? If they’re well bonded then introducing two cycling cows to Gung increases the chance of calves.

 

[Zoofan15]

It’s also possible they were with Gung isn’t it? If they’re well bonded then introducing two cycling cows to Gung increases the chance of calves.

@Swanson02 identified the bull as Pathi Harn based on his tusks among other features. He’s only 12 years old, so his tusks are smaller than Gung’s, even though Gung doesn’t have large tusks for a bull his age.

Last I heard, Gung hadn’t been introduced to Sabai and Kanlaya. Such an introduction would hold little benefit to them; when they can have contact with a bull via Pathi Harn.

If Thong Dee was cycling, it’s possible that she and Anjalee would be introduced to Gung, though I think it’s more likely Pathi Harn will cover them. It’s extremely unlikely the cows would cycle the same week and it’s my belief they’d establish Thong Dee was pregnant (which could take up to four months post mating) before allowing Anjalee to conceive.

 

[Jambo]

From social media, it appears that Anjalee has now been introduced to both Sabai and Pathi Harn. This is not a 100% confirmation though.

Do you have the photo? I'm interested to see it.

Last I heard, Gung hadn’t been introduced to Sabai and Kanlaya. Such an introduction would hold little benefit to them; when they can have contact with a bull via Pathi Harn.

Gung was in with the cows a few years back; Thong Dee, Porntip and Kanlaya. This was during lockdown if I can remember correctly, so quite some time ago.

If Thong Dee was cycling, it’s possible that she and Anjalee would be introduced to Gung, though I think it’s more likely Pathi Harn will cover them. It’s extremely unlikely the cows would cycle the same week and it’s my belief they’d establish Thong Dee was pregnant (which could take up to four months post mating) before allowing Anjalee to conceive.

I think it's likely Thong Dee may have been cycling. It's been now almost six years since her last birth, so if she conceives now, she'll give birth in the middle of 2024 which is ideal rather (and a similar birth gap to her previous one).

Anjalee may have just been there for experience with Pathi Harn. Although especially with large herds, cows have been known to cycle at the same time.

 

[Zoofan15]

I think it's likely Thong Dee may have been cycling. It's been now almost six years since her last birth, so if she conceives now, she'll give birth in the middle of 2024 which is ideal rather (and a similar birth gap to her previous one).

Anjalee may have just been there for experience with Pathi Harn. Although especially with large herds, cows have been known to cycle at the same time.

Now would be a good time to breed from Thong Dee in my opinion. Anjalee has been with the herd for a few months now and every indication suggests her integration has gone seamlessly. Cows can experience behavioural changes in pregnancy, so it would have been inadvisable to have pregnant cows early on in the introductions, but at a minimum they could now look at breeding from Thong Dee - with Anjalee to follow once pregnancy is confirmed.

I wouldn’t except synchronisation of ovulation to occur within this herd to the week, especially given Anjalee has recently arrived and has irregular cycles. Melbourne’s herd vary by at least a few weeks as evidenced by the variation in due dates of their calves over the summer - even allowing for variation in gestation length, it’s been reported Dokkoon is due first.

It’s not hugely important to breed from Thong Dee given her representation; but since not doing so in the next couple of years would likely remove that option, I imagine they do have plans to breed from her. There’s very little justification to repeat the Gung/Thong Dee pairing a third time, so I anticipate Pathi Harn will get to breed with Thong Dee as a minimum.

 

[Jambo]

I wouldn’t except synchronisation of ovulation to occur within this herd to the week, especially given Anjalee has recently arrived and has irregular cycles. Melbourne’s herd vary by at least a few weeks as evidenced by the variation in due dates of their calves over the summer - even allowing for variation in gestation length, it’s been reported Dokkoon is due first.

It’s not hugely important to breed from Thong Dee given her representation; but since not doing so in the next couple of years would likely remove that option, I imagine they do have plans to breed from her. There’s very little justification to repeat the Gung/Thong Dee pairing a third time, so I anticipate Pathi Harn will get to breed with Thong Dee as a minimum.

That's true. They'd have to group Pathi Harn with Anjalee more often then if they want the best chance of her getting pregnant.

Thong Dee is twenty five, and so breeding here now is the best choice. If they want to (depending on the circumstances) they could still breed her again, but if she does get pregnant and this calf is a female; I doubt they'd chose to breed her again. Breeding her with Pathi Harn now also makes sense. A female calf could theoretically be paired with Gung in the future.

 

[Zoofan15]

That's true. They'd have to group Pathi Harn with Anjalee more often then if they want the best chance of her getting pregnant.

Thong Dee is twenty five, and so breeding here now is the best choice. If they want to (depending on the circumstances) they could still breed her again, but if she does get pregnant and this calf is a female; I doubt they'd chose to breed her again. Breeding her with Pathi Harn now also makes sense. A female calf could theoretically be paired with Gung in the future.

Anjalee’s cycles vary in length, so sometimes she might have a shorter cycle than average, sometimes longer. This was one of the challenges with carrying out AI at Auckland Zoo. With two bulls on site, she can be bred from at a moment’s notice, which will surely contribute to her chances of conceiving.

Gung and Pathi Harn are only 10 years apart in age, so generational gaps are negligible and there’s little reason to favour Gung based on age.

Gung also has more breeding options long term i.e. 4/4 cows, whereas Pathi Harn only has 2/4 cows he can breed with. A couple of calves via Anjalee and one via Thong Dee (who may then retire) could see him surplus to Dubbo’s breeding programme and freed up for transfer (if desired).

 

[Zorro]

Anjalee’s cycles vary in length, so sometimes she might have a shorter cycle than average, sometimes longer. This was one of the challenges with carrying out AI at Auckland Zoo. With two bulls on site, she can be bred from at a moment’s notice, which will surely contribute to her chances of conceiving.

Gung and Pathi Harn are only 10 years apart in age, so generational gaps are negligible and there’s little reason to favour Gung based on age.

Gung also has more breeding options long term i.e. 4/4 cows, whereas Pathi Harn only has 2/4 cows he can breed with. A couple of calves via Anjalee and one via Thong Dee (who may then retire) could see him surplus to Dubbo’s breeding programme and freed up for transfer (if desired).

The Sydney zoo bulls could be factored into the future breeding as well giving a larger gene pool

 

[Zoofan15]

The Sydney zoo bulls could be factored into the future breeding as well giving a larger gene pool

Very true. If Mali produces a female calf, then she could be bred to Putra Mas (or a son of Putra Mas via an unrelated female line), but any female descendants of Mali beyond that would require an additional founder bull as Bong Su and Gung are already represented in her line.

Globablly speaking, the Sydney bulls are less valuable than the other founder bulls we have as they’re well represented throughout Europe.

Considering how unique Australasia is in that we have several founders to the global captive population, its essential Putra Mas in retained within the region as we’d never receive a bull of his genetic value from Europe or North America in the future.

 

[Swanson02]

Do you have the photo? I'm interested to see it.

 

[Zoofan15]

View attachment 567579

Thanks for sharing. That’s definitely (L-R): Kanlaya (2018), Thong Dee (1997), Sabai (2016) and Pathi Harn (2010).

I’d say it’s probable Porntip (1992) and Anjalee (2006) are in the paddock as well; but the primary objective could well be for Pathi Harn and Thong Dee to breed. It’d certainly do Sabai no harm to observe reproductive behaviour, as Luk Chai had an opportunity to do so as a juvenile via his sire in the 2010’s.

 

[Jambo]

Thanks for sharing. That’s definitely (L-R): Kanlaya (2018), Thong Dee (1997), Sabai (2016) and Pathi Harn (2010).

I’d say it’s probable Porntip (1992) and Anjalee (2006) are in the paddock as well; but the primary objective could well be for Pathi Harn and Thong Dee to breed. It’d certainly do Sabai no harm to observe reproductive behaviour, as Luk Chai had an opportunity to do so as a juvenile via his sire in the 2010’s.

Yeah I agree. I doubt they'd have Kanlaya in there without Porntip. Anjalee, who's new, may be rather timid around the two bulls (albeit one being a juvenile). She of course, has only lived around Burma for many years so this is all a different experience for her.

It seems to be some sort of feeding session too, so it's also likely these four were just the first to get there; or the hungriest.

It'd also be good for Kanlaya; via socialisation with another juvenile of her age. And with Pathi Harn in with the girls anyway, there'd be no other option for Sabai besides keeping him by himself. He's obviously not negatively affecting the herd in anyway, and is actually benefiting from the socialisation with the cows and witnessing Pathi Harn mate.