Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

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@Zoofan15 @Patrick Keegan @Jambo @Swanson02

Heaps exciting seeing the latest map(s), its really going to be something fantastic hey, cannot wait. Really looking forward to Permai having female company again, and sure Putra Mas is going to transition well too. Burma in Auckland is big on my mind too of late..hope she finds a place soon for company (know fully well her wellbeing is still as excellent as come be with her devoted, caring keepers looking after her above and beyond, will only be happy about her eventual transfer simply because of the companionship factor that awaits her hopefully). Thanks for all the posts guys.
 
Jambo said:
The bull barn will be designed similar to this one at Dublin I imagine; with walls separating each pen:

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i am pretty sure this was taken at an USA zoo. I have seen this video before when one cow was showing aggression to that particular cow. I forgot which zoochat member was there.
 
Another idea: Permai and Burma can be interactive/demonstration elephants for any zoo. They enjoy interacting with people and will transfer easily to protected contact and will follow commands because they enjoy human interaction. Aren’t there smaller zoos in Australia?
 
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ZCChip said:
i am pretty sure this was taken at an USA zoo. I have seen this video before when one cow was showing aggression to that particular cow. I forgot which zoochat member was there.
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@Jambo this photo was taken at the Cincinnati Zoo not the Dublin Zoo. @ZCChip you are correct, Jati the elephant with Mai Thai tail in her mouth was showing aggression towards both of the girls. I was the member that was their that day as well.
 
ZCChip said:
Another idea: Permai and Burma can be interactive/demonstration elephants for any zoo. They enjoy interacting with people and will transfer easily to protected contact and will follow commands because they enjoy human interaction. Aren’t there smaller zoos in Australia?
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Sydney Zoo don’t have the space to accomodate them as they already have two bulls and Taronga Zoo will likely be phasing out - or supporting their breeding herd at Dubbo by holding a surplus bull at their city site. Auckland Zoo have stated they won’t consider Australia Zoo as an option after they messed them around earlier this year by cancelling their import of Burma days before.

There’s a possibility that a smaller facility like Altina or Crocodylus would be willing to take them, but I find it hard to imagine any small zoo would have the funds to invest in the infrastructure and ongoing costs of caring for elephants.
 
steveroberts said:
@Zoofan15 @Patrick Keegan @Jambo @Swanson02

Heaps exciting seeing the latest map(s), its really going to be something fantastic hey, cannot wait. Really looking forward to Permai having female company again, and sure Putra Mas is going to transition well too. Burma in Auckland is big on my mind too of late..hope she finds a place soon for company (know fully well her wellbeing is still as excellent as come be with her devoted, caring keepers looking after her above and beyond, will only be happy about her eventual transfer simply because of the companionship factor that awaits her hopefully). Thanks for all the posts guys.
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You’re welcome, I’m glad you’re enjoying the posts.

The Auckland Zoo keeper I spoke to believes Burma will go to the USA and speculation on here has identified Werribee as the only regional alternative of substance.

It’s a shame Auckland or Perth won’t accept the other’s elephant and reconsider their plans to phase out, but both are committed to discontinuing with this species for various reasons and will therefore be searching for alternative homes.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Sydney Zoo don’t have the space to accomodate them as they already have two bulls and Taronga Zoo will likely be phasing out - or supporting their breeding herd at Dubbo by holding a surplus bull at their city site. Auckland Zoo have stated they won’t consider Australia Zoo as an option after they messed them around earlier this year by cancelling their import of Burma days before.

There’s a possibility that a smaller facility like Altina or Crocodylus would be willing to take them, but I find it hard to imagine any small zoo would have the funds to invest in the infrastructure and ongoing costs of caring for elephants.
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Kavi and Ashoka won't be needed in the breeding program for at least another two decades (assuming Putra Mas heads to Werribee). Werribee should be able to sustain their herd for the next two decades with Luk Chai and Putra Mas. Dubbo should also be able to sustain their herd with Gung and Pathi Harn for the same period. So these bulls won't be needed in the breeding program for quite some time; it makes sense to keep both at Sydney in the meantime.

I'm thinking Taronga may be in favour of sending Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Dubbo and then receiving Permai and Burma in return. Taronga obviously don't want to budge on phasing out elephants anytime soon, and I don't see bulls returning to Taronga anytime soon.
 
Jambo said:
I'm thinking Taronga may be in favour of sending Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Dubbo and then receiving Permai and Burma in return. Taronga obviously don't want to budge on phasing out elephants anytime soon, and I don't see bulls returning to Taronga anytime soon.
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I think the idea of Taronga sending Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Dubbo once the expansion of their elephant facility, and in turn receiving Burma and Permai is a great idea as it would allow Pak Boon the ability to mate with either Gung or Pathi Harn and reunite with the herd their, and Taronga to continue their elephant program with both Burma and Permai.

Proposed breeding plan for Dubbo
2024- Anjalee, Thong Dee, Porntip
2028- Pak Boon, Thong Dee
2030: Porntip, Anjalee,
2032- Pak Boon, Kanlaya, Thong Dee
 
Mr.Ivory said:
I think the idea of Taronga sending Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Dubbo once the expansion of their elephant facility, and in turn receiving Burma and Permai is a great idea as it would allow Pak Boon the ability to mate with either Gung or Pathi Harn and reunite with the herd their, and Taronga to continue their elephant program with both Burma and Permai.

Proposed breeding plan for Dubbo
2024- Anjalee, Thong Dee, Porntip
2028- Pak Boon, Thong Dee
2030: Porntip, Anjalee,
2032- Pak Boon, Kanlaya, Thong Dee
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Sending Burma and Permai to Taronga could work as the move could be promoted as Taronga providing a retirement home, which to a degree would negate the negativity around keeping elephants in city zoos.

Pak Boon really needs to breed sooner rather than later. If an integration could be achieved, she'd be a greater asset to Werribee than Dubbo, as the large herd Werribee create will otherwise descend from just two cows.

Pak Boon be highly strung, which could complicate introductions, but from a breeding perspective, she's of more use to Werribee than Dubbo, who have more cows than they know what to do with.

Pak Boon and Tang Mo would also contribute to a strong female foundation at Werribee, which would offset the inevitable bull calves born.
 
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Zoofan15 said:
Sending Burma and Permai to Taronga could work as the move could be promoted as Raronga providing a retirement home, which to a degree would negate the negativity around keeping elephants in city zoos.

Pak Boon really needs to breed sooner rather than later. If an integration could be achieved, she'd be a greater asset to Werribee than Dubbo, as the large herd Werribee create will otherwise descend from just two cows.

Pak Boon be highly strung, which could complicate introductions, but from a breeding perspective, she's of more use to Werribee than Dubbo, who have more cows than they know what to do with.

Pak Boon and Tang Mo would also contribute to a strong female foundation at Werribee, which would offset the inevitable bull calves born.
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or they could send just Pak Boon and yes Pak Boon needs to breed asap. I believe her last calf died in 2018 at a fairly young age. I forgot how old she was.

Tang Mo has not conceived but a good aunt as per the down under zoo television channel. They could keep her with the two non breeding cows if the zoo is that attached to her.
 
ZCChip said:
or they could send just Pak Boon and yes Pak Boon needs to breed asap. I believe her last calf died in 2018 at a fairly young age. I forgot how old she was.

Tang Mo has not conceived but a good aunt as per the down under zoo television channel. They could keep her with the two non breeding cows if the zoo is that attached to her.
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Pak Boon has had two calves, which sadly both died prematurely. Tukta was born in 2010 and died of EEHV in 2018. Jai Dee was born in 2017 and died of intestinal torsion in 2020. It's therefore only been five years since Pak Boon last bred, but shes now 30 years old and getting on in years.

Tang Mo is a playful and friendly elephant that dotes on calves. She'd thrive in Werribee's breeding herd, though sending her with Pak Boon could strengthen Pak Boon's resolve that she should be dominant (as she'd have support) versus sending her alone.

An option could be to send Tang Mo to Dubbo and Pak Boon to Werribee.
 
steveroberts said:
@Zoofan15 100% think that is a brilliant idea about Permai and Burma finding a home at Taronga and their potential move there being a positive message for a city zoo still caring for Eles' in the current era for reasons you pointed out
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Thank you. It would avoid the stress and hassle of an export outside the region and provide Taronga with an attraction for the next two decades at least. Breeding at Taronga isn't really practical, so this move would serve the region best.
 
@Zoofan15

Absolutely, Taronga did amazingly in the beginning starting with birth of Luk Chai in '09 and the other babies that followed (and Melbourne too of course) so they have a legacy to be proud of; I think you're totally right in terms of Taronga can show that while city zoos don't exactly fit in as breeding facilities anymore perhaps holding several 'retired' individuals should not be met with the same public backlash of recent decades
 
@Zoofan15

Absolutely, Taronga did amazingly in the beginning starting with birth of Luk Chai in '09 and the other babies that followed (and Melbourne too of course) so they have a legacy to be proud of; I think you're totally right in terms of Taronga can show that while city zoos don't exactly fit in as breeding facilities anymore perhaps holding several 'retired' individuals should not be met with the same public backlash of recent decades
 
Zoofan15 said:
Thank you. It would avoid the stress and hassle of an export outside the region and provide Taronga with an attraction for the next two decades at least. Breeding at Taronga isn't really practical, so this move would serve the region best.
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Personally, I agree with the idea and would prefer this over many other of the solutions presented but I can't see it happening.

I get the feeling that Taronga (not TWPZ) has slowly over the last few years become deeply ashamed of their elephants. To the point, they barely post about them on social media nor report any news on them. This is very strange for a species that many would consider their biggest drawcard. Sydney Zoo opening has really put Taronga between a rock and a hard place and ultimately I think they will bite the bullet and commit to permanently moving all their elephants to TWPZ.

Even though I think moving a young bull either Pathi Harn or preferably Sabai (or both if there is space) to Taronga as a replacement for their cows would be a good move. The public is still uneducated and could perceive it as 'abusive' as in the layman's eyes all elephants (including bulls) live in big herds. This exchange also doesn't fix the small amount of space in both of Taronga's exhibits, the main driver of public complaints, and when Werribee opens it will make Taronga's minimal space look even worse by comparison.
 
steveroberts said:
@Zoofan15

Absolutely, Taronga did amazingly in the beginning starting with birth of Luk Chai in '09 and the other babies that followed (and Melbourne too of course) so they have a legacy to be proud of; I think you're totally right in terms of Taronga can show that while city zoos don't exactly fit in as breeding facilities anymore perhaps holding several 'retired' individuals should not be met with the same public backlash of recent decades
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The breeding programme flourished like nobody ever imagined. Prior to Luk Chai’s birth in 2009, an elephant calf had never been born in Australia. By the end of 2013, there’d been seven births with six of the seven cows imported from Thailand having produced calves.

I think public acceptance of Burma and Permai being housed at Taronga will come from the following:

1. The move will allow two zoos to phase out of elephants
2. Taronga are providing a retirement home for these animals
3. It provides them both with companionship
4. There’s an end in sight (the inevitable passing of these cows)

It was no secret that Perth planned to phase out upon Tricia’s death and therefore the public enjoyed her in her final years, rather than debate elephants in city zoos.
 
Swanson02 said:
Personally, I agree with the idea and would prefer this over many other of the solutions presented but I can't see it happening.

I get the feeling that Taronga (not TWPZ) has slowly over the last few years become deeply ashamed of their elephants. To the point, they barely post about them on social media nor report any news on them. This is very strange for a species that many would consider their biggest drawcard. Sydney Zoo opening has really put Taronga between a rock and a hard place and ultimately I think they will bite the bullet and commit to permanently moving all their elephants to TWPZ.

Even though I think moving a young bull either Pathi Harn or preferably Sabai (or both if there is space) to Taronga as a replacement for their cows would be a good move. The public is still uneducated and could perceive it as 'abusive' as in the layman's eyes all elephants (including bulls) live in big herds. This exchange also doesn't fix the small amount of space in both of Taronga's exhibits, the main driver of public complaints, and when Werribee opens it will make Taronga's minimal space look even worse by comparison.
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That’s also a possibility and something Taronga will have to consider. Sabai is surplus to their breeding programme, with future pairings revolving around Gung and Pathi Harn, so it would be valuable to transfer him from Dubbo to Taronga.

Like you say, the sticking point could be the public perception that Sabai would be lonely on his own. One option could be to transfer Man Jai from Werribee, but for now at least they’re happy to retain him.

It’s hard to put a number on the amount of people who visit Taronga because they hold elephants and more to the point, how many would discontinue visiting if they phased them out. I’d rate the big cats and great apes as equally big crowd pullers at zoos I’ve visited that hold elephants, so agree Taronga wouldn’t suffer unduly it they took this route.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Sending Burma and Permai to Taronga could work as the move could be promoted as Taronga providing a retirement home, which to a degree would negate the negativity around keeping elephants in city zoos.

Pak Boon really needs to breed sooner rather than later. If an integration could be achieved, she'd be a greater asset to Werribee than Dubbo, as the large herd Werribee create will otherwise descend from just two cows.

Pak Boon be highly strung, which could complicate introductions, but from a breeding perspective, she's of more use to Werribee than Dubbo, who have more cows than they know what to do with.

Pak Boon and Tang Mo would also contribute to a strong female foundation at Werribee, which would offset the inevitable bull calves born.
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I would've thought that if Taronga wanted to send Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Dubbo, they would've done so already. It might be possible they're awaiting the completion of Werribee's complex before sending them there.

Like you've said, Dubbo dosen't have the space for the cows they have at the moment. Sending Pak Boon to Werribee will provide Werribee with three founder cows (Dokkoon, Num Oi and Pak Boon) whilst leaving Dubbo with three too (Thong Dee, Porntip and Anjalee).

Pak Boon is a dominant female, and if she is sent to Werribee I can probably see her taking over as matriarch which might be a good thing as Melbourne lacks an assertive matriarch which will be useful once the herd grows in numbers over the years.
 
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