African Elephants In Europe 2022
- Thread starter Hyak_II
- Start date
Possibly Jack from Sosto as Sosto's expected to receive a new bull, Tooth. There's really no other candidates off the top of my head. Hopefully this'll give Zola the opportunity to conceive again following her stillbirth in 2018.
Okavango
Well-Known Member
It's possible, Abu was the designated breeding male for Zola's insemination in 2016, but he was in musth at that time and so his sperm was not of good quality. The sperm used was therefore that of a wild male. So, the EEP has in the past felt that Abu is compatible with Zlin cows.
Elephantelephant
Well-Known Member
I think it might be Abu. The director of the zoo announced in one interview that the bull has been selected for a long time and recently another offspring was born. Also, I think it was mentioned that he would be from Germany, but I'm not 100% sure.
I would rather think of Uli from Magdeburg. It already was announced that he will leave soon and that they will get cows in the next step. Of course it can also be that Abu moves to Zlin and Uli to Halle
Elephantelephant
Well-Known Member
I don't think that would be a good choice. Uli is still quite young and the cows in Zlin desperately need calves. Moreover, the zoo director seemed quite confident about the new bull and said that he already had offspring. However, the possibility that Uli would move to Halle instead of Abu sounds more realistic.
Yes all 3 cows are mid 20’s, however 2 are viable and have produced calves within the past 5 years. The third, Ulu, is the only one that hasn’t, however she is also the youngest of the bunch. While it’s not particularly likely, there is a chance she could still conceive once a breeding bull is brought in.
Also just to chime in, Uli would definitely be a poor choice to be Zlins breeding bull, for a variety of reasons. To begin, he is only 11 years old, which is extremely young for an African bull to begin breeding. They would likely need to wait *at least* another 2-3 years before he is able to successfully breed the cows. Second, Uli is unproven, and there is not time to waste with a young, unproven bull on these aging cows. Third, all the Zlin cows are founders, while Uli comes from an extremely well represented lineage with 4 full siblings, 10 half siblings with an 11th on the way, and a few more distant relatives with more being conceived regularly. It would be absolutely squandering their valuable genetic potential with Uli. In comparison, Abu is a far better choice. He is his mothers only calf, his father is now apparently infertile and his only other surviving offspring is unproven as of yet, and Abu’s four offspring are all still immature. In addition, Abu is a well proven natural breeder, and at 22 years old, has the size, maturity and experience to effectively handle inexperienced older cows like the ones at Zlin. He’s also already had experience and has been generally good with young calves, which is invaluable for the young bull at Zlin as well.
If we want to weed it down to purely conjecture, some other bulls that would subjectively be appropriate and realistic options could be Jack from Sosto, Limbo from Gyor, Jum’s or Junmar from Cabarceno, or Coco from Howletts. Kibo from Erfurt and Yoga from Boras would also be fine options, but both of them are best left at their current facilities for a fews more years yet, in my opinion.
Also just to chime in, Uli would definitely be a poor choice to be Zlins breeding bull, for a variety of reasons. To begin, he is only 11 years old, which is extremely young for an African bull to begin breeding. They would likely need to wait *at least* another 2-3 years before he is able to successfully breed the cows. Second, Uli is unproven, and there is not time to waste with a young, unproven bull on these aging cows. Third, all the Zlin cows are founders, while Uli comes from an extremely well represented lineage with 4 full siblings, 10 half siblings with an 11th on the way, and a few more distant relatives with more being conceived regularly. It would be absolutely squandering their valuable genetic potential with Uli. In comparison, Abu is a far better choice. He is his mothers only calf, his father is now apparently infertile and his only other surviving offspring is unproven as of yet, and Abu’s four offspring are all still immature. In addition, Abu is a well proven natural breeder, and at 22 years old, has the size, maturity and experience to effectively handle inexperienced older cows like the ones at Zlin. He’s also already had experience and has been generally good with young calves, which is invaluable for the young bull at Zlin as well.
If we want to weed it down to purely conjecture, some other bulls that would subjectively be appropriate and realistic options could be Jack from Sosto, Limbo from Gyor, Jum’s or Junmar from Cabarceno, or Coco from Howletts. Kibo from Erfurt and Yoga from Boras would also be fine options, but both of them are best left at their current facilities for a fews more years yet, in my opinion.
Okavango
Well-Known Member
If you are talking about Pembé, in my view, he won't reproduce anymore. Although being a proven breeder, he was born of a consanguineous relationship. I think his role will be more to educate the young males of Gyor.
Yes sorry, I mixed the two up! I suppose Limbo passed away some years ago.
It is true he is out of a mother/son breeding, however that alone is not a valid reason to remove him from the breeding pool. Any offspring he produces (with unrelated females, of course), will not be inbred, and moreover, he is one of not very many African bulls who is the ideal combination of fertile, a natural breeder, and socially competent. Although his line is extremely well represented right now through his numerous full and half siblings, many of the Ramat Gan animals have either passed away, are non breeding for one reason or another, or scheduled to be “released” in Africa in the coming years, which only serves to increase his overall value to the European population.
And for what it’s worth, there are probably many, many more inbred animals in the EEP population than we are aware of. Think of all the same age calves that came from culls and other collecting trips in the 80’s and 90’s. Any number of them are potentially half siblings, cousins, aunts/uncles, etc…
correct and I believe it would be inevitable to see a common great grandparent (or great great grandparent) in the pedigree in the future.
Okavango
Well-Known Member
It's inevitable that with such a population, we are heading towards global inbreeding. But breeding this kind of animals still has an impact on the genetic viability of their potential offspring, even if inbreeding is nullified by genetic diversity with the other parent, it's still present in the offspring's genes.
Are there currently other similar cases or individuals of cansanguine origin are in a situation of reproduction?
I'm not for letting Pembé reproduce again. His descendants will still have unclean genetics, and I fear this could cause big issues at one point. With the current situation of both elephants EEP, it's probably the best thing to do by keeping clear genetics. And there's a bunch of young bulls who could soon be in a breeding situation. AI is a really big hope for the future of the european population, as it could help bringing new genetics. Pembé doesn't have to breed unless there's an emergency, leaving the EEP with no other choice. He will probably be really successful in his teaching role for young bulls (especially Bou Bou who is probably one of the most genetically interesting bulls in Europe).
Can you say what unclean genetics this bull has other than the inbreeding?
we have inbred animals for centuries. Now we breed with a goal in mind often line breeding fo attempt to strengthen a desired trait. Chickens. Horses. Cows. Pigs. Even humans have married within the family.
Granted we do not want to duplicate a lethal gene or a negative gene.
there are many instances of father/daughter matings, siblings matings (Ramat Gan has this in their Asians and undoubtly this will happen again as they have a baby bull now). And son/mother matings in the case of Ramat Gan Africans.
Okavango
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, the management of wild and domestic animal populations are not comparable. Domestic animal breeds were created by human, often with the help of inbreeding. Wild animals are not a creation of human, so the goal in captivity is to recreate a population as genetically rich as what can be observed in nature. Inbreeding is not often lethal and can occasionally occur in nature, but in the long term can render an entire population unviable. In my view, cases of inbreeding in captivity are mistakes of the past not to be repeated. If we had to define the role of the EEP in two words, I think it would be "avoid inbreeding". So why reproduce individuals of inbred origin when they have genetic relatives in a reproductive situation (or in the process of being so) ?
Moreover, the role of adult males in the education of adolescents should not be neglected, the EEP really needs it, this could be the solution to prevent males from being too clumsy with females and therefore limit the number adult males without offspring in the future.
I'm providing with the same overview that I made for Asian elephants here. Not sure if it was mentioned elsewhere but Al Ain was kicked out of the EEP for taking in elephants from Namibia.
Current Situation
74 singular cows above breeding age
12 singular cows in breeding age
8 matrilines of two
2 matrilines of three
7 matrilinies of four
Potential Situation if you merged the matrilines that were ripped apart
71 singular cows above breeding age
12 singular cows in breeding age
6 matrilines of two
2 matrilines of three
6 matrilines of four
1 matriline of five
1 matriline of six
You see that the issues are even bigger than for the Asian elephants. While there are about 40 potential breeding lines and thus future herd holders for Asians, there are less than 30 for African elephants. The situation gets worse if the EEP doesn't take action soon as a deeper look shows:
a) 6 of the singular cows are stuck in Valencia and don't breed - if you don't get them in a breeding situation in the next seven years (assuming the breeding age is 25) you will lose more than 20% of the potential future breeding groups alone by wasting this chance.
b) three matrilines and one singular breeding age cow are in Carbaceno and would desperately be needed elsewhere (one line of course should stay)
c) three matrilines are at Howletts and seem lost
So together we talk about something between one third and half of the potential future herds that might be lost if action isn't taken soon. The focus for African elephants is not whether or not some matriline is having a fourth or fifth or sixth member (which of course is nice since usually African elephants are living in much larger herds than Asians), but it needs to be on getting the singular cows and smaller lines to breed and ensure a maximum of holders for the future.
Current Situation
74 singular cows above breeding age
12 singular cows in breeding age
8 matrilines of two
2 matrilines of three
7 matrilinies of four
Potential Situation if you merged the matrilines that were ripped apart
71 singular cows above breeding age
12 singular cows in breeding age
6 matrilines of two
2 matrilines of three
6 matrilines of four
1 matriline of five
1 matriline of six
You see that the issues are even bigger than for the Asian elephants. While there are about 40 potential breeding lines and thus future herd holders for Asians, there are less than 30 for African elephants. The situation gets worse if the EEP doesn't take action soon as a deeper look shows:
a) 6 of the singular cows are stuck in Valencia and don't breed - if you don't get them in a breeding situation in the next seven years (assuming the breeding age is 25) you will lose more than 20% of the potential future breeding groups alone by wasting this chance.
b) three matrilines and one singular breeding age cow are in Carbaceno and would desperately be needed elsewhere (one line of course should stay)
c) three matrilines are at Howletts and seem lost
So together we talk about something between one third and half of the potential future herds that might be lost if action isn't taken soon. The focus for African elephants is not whether or not some matriline is having a fourth or fifth or sixth member (which of course is nice since usually African elephants are living in much larger herds than Asians), but it needs to be on getting the singular cows and smaller lines to breed and ensure a maximum of holders for the future.