Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

[Jambo]

Even though the exhibit is large, I think they’re overestimating the capacity of the exhibit to function as a wild ecosystem given this is a species which can travel up to 80km in a day.

The bulls transitioning out of the natal herd will still be drawn to the natal herd beyond the stage when the adult cows are driving them away and then there’s contraception of cows to consider - Kulab who’s capable of conceiving, but who is unable to handle the birth process; cows they want to extend the birth interval by a year or two; and juvenile females of four or five years, who will begin cycling around this time. There’s also the potential for injury to young calves caught up in clashes from boisterous adolescent bulls.

As seen from the map, Werribee has the capacity to manage elephants across multiple paddocks. I have no doubt a fission-fusion transition as has been so successfully implemented at Dubbo is the way to go.

The keeper seemed pretty confident and excited about that as apparently it would be a world first. Whether it works or not will be to be seen, and they have the facilities to accomodate it if it dosen't.

Eventually the region will need a designated bachelor facility; as obviously Werribee won’t be serving as one (besides holding a few). Monarto seems the best option going forward. Sydney could potentially be another facility (but can only hold up to a pair of bulls).

 

[Zorro]

The keeper seemed pretty confident and excited about that as apparently it would be a world first. Whether it works or not will be to be seen, and they have the facilities to accomodate it if it dosen't.

Eventually the region will need a designated bachelor facility; as obviously Werribee won’t be serving as one (besides holding a few). Monarto seems the best option going forward. Sydney could potentially be another facility (but can only hold up to a pair of bulls).

Any mention of perths animals

 

[Jambo]

Any mention of perths animals

Nope, I did ask but the keeper had no idea unfortunately.

 

[Zoofan15]

Any mention of perths animals

Nope, I did ask but the keeper had no idea unfortunately.

Though Zoos Victoria may be unwilling to comment/confirm publish their decision on this, it’s undeniable Putra Mas is a founder the region can’t afford to let go when you consider the genetic value of this founder to the breeding programme (not just regionally, but internationally).

Not only would we never receive a bull of equivalent value from outside the region when we do need to import (only well represented bulls like the pair from Dublin), but breeding calves from a genetically valuable bull will make them desirable for import by North America and Europe down the line. Given a surplus of bulls is the perennial curse of any elephant breeding programme, it’s prudent to ensure there’s a demand for what we produce.

 

[Zoofan15]

Eventually the region will need a designated bachelor facility; as obviously Werribee won’t be serving as one (besides holding a few). Monarto seems the best option going forward. Sydney could potentially be another facility (but can only hold up to a pair of bulls).

With the uncertainty over whether Monaro will act as a bachelor facility, Werribee will need to be mindful of the challenges of placing future bulls before undertaking breeding.

There’s no ability to undertake gender selection via natural mating, which is the preferred method in our region’s zoos and with two bulls on site and a third widely predicted to be joining them, they’ll only be room for so many additional bulls bred on site. The demand overseas is another unknown, especially with overcrowding in Europe.

Like many, I’ve been hopeful of a new era of either natural or decreased birth intervals (4-5 years), but clearly neither we or Werribee are in a position to get ahead of ourselves at this point in time. It’s no exaggeration to say the multigenerational herd of 20+ cows will be formed over decades.

 

[Jambo]

Though Zoos Victoria may be unwilling to comment/confirm publish their decision on this, it’s undeniable Putra Mas is a founder the region can’t afford to let go when you consider the genetic value of this founder to the breeding programme (not just regionally, but internationally).

Not only would we never receive a bull of equivalent value from outside the region when we do need to import (only well represented bulls like the pair from Dublin), but breeding calves from a genetically valuable bull will make them desirable for import by North America and Europe down the line. Given a surplus of bulls is the perennial curse of any elephant breeding programme, it’s prudent to ensure there’s a demand for what we produce.

Being a bull too represents its complications as no US zoo at the moment is in position (or in need) to receive a bull (that is, a breeding one). It would be a waste to send him into a non breeding situation over there; and it’s the same situation over in Europe too.

I think it’s essential he gets used in the regional breeding program eventually. Dubbo don’t have the space unfortunately; but there’s no reason why Werribee can’t import Putra Mas. They’ll need a second bull in a decades time anyway once Luk Chai’s firstborn female calves reach reproductive age. Relying on Ashoka and Kavi won’t get them far, and overseas imports are a rare occurrence.

 

[Zoofan15]

Being a bull too represents its complications as no US zoo at the moment is in position (or in need) to receive a bull (that is, a breeding one). It would be a waste to send him into a non breeding situation over there; and it’s the same situation over in Europe too.

I think it’s essential he gets used in the regional breeding program eventually. Dubbo don’t have the space unfortunately; but there’s no reason why Werribee can’t import Putra Mas. They’ll need a second bull in a decades time anyway once Luk Chai’s firstborn female calves reach reproductive age. Relying on Ashoka and Kavi won’t get them far, and overseas imports are a rare occurrence.

Additionally, Putra Mas wouldn’t be as bigger asset to Dubbo as he would Werribee. Dubbo have two unrelated breeding bulls in Gung and Pathi Harn, which ensures the future of their breeding programme for significantly longer than Werribee, who’ll require an additional bull to sire offspring to any daughters of Dokoon and Mali from the upcoming cohort of calves.

It’s in Werribee’s interests above all others facilities to retain Putra Mas and they’re in the best position to do so with regards to space and infrastructure. The logical decision is clear.

 

[Jambo]

Visited Melbourne today and again noted the separation of their cows into two groups; Mek Kapah, Mali and Dokkoon; and then Kulab and Num Oi. The cows were rotated in and out of the barn, with the former being in the barn in the morning following the latter in the afternoon.

Just an interesting note, which I believe may due to the upcoming births.

Also from observation, it appears Num Oi is the heaviest pregnant (despite being scheduled to give birth last). Mali shows the least physical signs, but this is likely attributed to this being her first pregnancy.

 

[Zorro]

Additionally, Putra Mas wouldn’t be as bigger asset to Dubbo as he would Werribee. Dubbo have two unrelated breeding bulls in Gung and Pathi Harn, which ensures the future of their breeding programme for significantly longer than Werribee, who’ll require an additional bull to sire offspring to any daughters of Dokoon and Mali from the upcoming cohort of calves.

It’s in Werribee’s interests above all others facilities to retain Putra Mas and they’re in the best position to do so with regards to space and infrastructure. The logical decision is clear.

Toronto zoo found out long ago the down side of only having one bull and the 8 cows.if/when something happens to that bull no more breeding taking place

 

[Zoofan15]

Also from observation, it appears Num Oi is the heaviest pregnant (despite being scheduled to give birth last). Mali shows the least physical signs, but this is likely attributed to this being her first pregnancy.

The due dates of Melbourne’s cows are a rough guide at best. It appears all three cows conceived on the first cycle - which means that given the reproductive cycle for this species is 3-4 months, the maximum time between the first to conceive and the last to conceive is four months (statistically speaking, this is likely to be less).

Since gestation for this species averages 21-23 months (with a recorded range of 18-25 months), there’s no guarantee these cows will deliver in the order they conceived or are estimated to give birth.

Num Oi’s distended stomach (a consequence of her poor nutrition in Thailand) would contribute to her larger frame during pregnancy; while it’s expected that two cows carrying their third calves would appear larger than a cow expecting her first calf.

 

[Zoofan15]

Toronto zoo found out long ago the down side of only having one bull and the 8 cows.if/when something happens to that bull no more breeding taking place

We’re fortunate in Australia in that we have a few back up solutions. Sabai appears to be surplus to Taronga Western Plains Zoo’s breeding programme and could replace Luk Chai at short notice; while Man Jai and Num Oi at Werribee will be a potential pairing.

However, Putra Mas is an example of where zoos need to look at the bigger picture. He’ll be needed to sire the next generation (daughters of Mali) and in the interim could be used to establish additional lines at Werribee. If he’s transferred, I’d expect him to sire the second cohort of calves rather than a repeat of Luk Chai.

 

[Jambo]

We’re fortunate in Australia in that we have a few back up solutions. Sabai appears to be surplus to Taronga Western Plains Zoo’s breeding programme and could replace Luk Chai at short notice; while Man Jai and Num Oi at Werribee will be a potential pairing.

However, Putra Mas is an example of where zoos need to look at the bigger picture. He’ll be needed to sire the next generation (daughters of Mali) and in the interim could be used to establish additional lines at Werribee. If he’s transferred, I’d expect him to sire the second cohort of calves rather than a repeat of Luk Chai.

We also have the former Dublin bulls at Sydney which provides the region with a great contingency going forward. One will probably be used in the future at Dubbo (provided Gung sires a few more calves) and the other will likely serve as a backup. Theoretically, the other could be sent to Werribee, but this will all depend on future plans; Werribee won’t require an additional bull for more than another two decades - provided Putra Mas is sent there. By that time Kavi/Ashoka will be in their 30’s and will likely have nephews/nieces at Dubbo already, so their line will be decently represented within the region by that time.

Overseas imports can be costly and rather difficult to undertake, so considering the region has the option of Putra Mas (who’s wildborn, within the region and only has one surviving offspring)- there’s no reason why they shouldn’t take it.

 

[Zoofan15]

We also have the former Dublin bulls at Sydney which provides the region with a great contingency going forward. One will probably be used in the future at Dubbo (provided Gung sires a few more calves) and the other will likely serve as a backup. Theoretically, the other could be sent to Werribee, but this will all depend on future plans; Werribee won’t require an additional bull for more than another two decades - provided Putra Mas is sent there. By that time Kavi/Ashoka will be in their 30’s and will likely have nephews/nieces at Dubbo already, so their line will be decently represented within the region by that time.

Overseas imports can be costly and rather difficult to undertake, so considering the region has the option of Putra Mas (who’s wildborn, within the region and only has one surviving offspring)- there’s no reason why they shouldn’t take it.

It’s fortunate we have the Sydney bulls for future proofing and fortunately the zoo has indicated a willingness to allow them to participate in the breeding programme in the future.

I doubt we’ll see a rush to use them given the global over-representation of their line within the captive population compared to our numerous valuable bulls (two of which are founders), but the assurance they can be utilised to breed third or fourth generation calves within the region means we have a sustainable population for the next half a century.

 

[Zoofan15]

Sumatran Bull - The Game Changer

Australia Zoo have previously stated plans to import two Sumatran bulls from Indonesia, which since then have been downgraded to one bull and believed to still be several years away. The intention would be to breed them with their two younger cows - aged 8 and 11 years old.

If they indeed follow through on plans to import this bull, it has the potential to have a ripple effect on the breeding programme. The Sumatran bull would upon arrival be the most genetically valuable bull in the region and given the other zoos manage their Asian elephants on a species level, they could have an interest in using this bull for AI.

Another possibility is that any bull calves born at Australia Zoo could be transferred out to join the breeding programmes at Dubbo or Werribee. Such an eventuality would be close to two decades away - but could conveniently tie in with the open range zoos exhausting their current lines - making this a win-win for them and Australia Zoo, who would surely be keen to shift on their surplus bulls.

In this event, it’s theoretically possible the Dublin bulls will be redundant to the breeding programme. The primary objective for their import was to stock the elephant exhibit at Sydney Zoo and provide companionship to their elderly cow. They’re not genetically valuable on a global scale compared to the other elephants in the region and would surely be superseded once again by the arrival of a new founder from Indonesia.

 

[Swanson02]

Sumatran Bull - The Game Changer

Australia Zoo have previously stated plans to import two Sumatran bulls from Indonesia, which since then have been downgraded to one bull and believed to still be several years away. The intention would be to breed them with their two younger cows - aged 8 and 11 years old.

If they indeed follow through on plans to import this bull, it has the potential to have a ripple effect on the breeding programme. The Sumatran bull would upon arrival be the most genetically valuable bull in the region and given the other zoos manage their Asian elephants on a species level, they could have an interest in using this bull for AI.

Another possibility is that any bull calves born at Australia Zoo could be transferred out to join the breeding programmes at Dubbo or Werribee. Such an eventuality would be close to two decades away - but could conveniently tie in with the open range zoos exhausting their current lines - making this a win-win for them and Australia Zoo, who would surely be keen to shift on their surplus bulls.

In this event, it’s theoretically possible the Dublin bulls will be redundant to the breeding programme. The primary objective for their import was to stock the elephant exhibit at Sydney Zoo and provide companionship to their elderly cow. They’re not genetically valuable on a global scale compared to the other elephants in the region and would surely be superseded once again by the arrival of a new founder from Indonesia.

In the event, Australia Zoo's Sumatran Bull import does fall through (a possibility I think is highly likely), I could see them using one of the Irish boys as their last-minute option to prevent their younger two cows from never breeding. I just get a strange feeling that these two would be used over any bulls from Taronga or ZoosVic. Maybe it's because Australia Zoo and Sydney are the only privately owned zoos to hold elephants, and both may have a mutual grudge against the main Taronga/ZoosVic program.

 

[Zorro]

Sumatran Bull - The Game Changer

Australia Zoo have previously stated plans to import two Sumatran bulls from Indonesia, which since then have been downgraded to one bull and believed to still be several years away. The intention would be to breed them with their two younger cows - aged 8 and 11 years old.

If they indeed follow through on plans to import this bull, it has the potential to have a ripple effect on the breeding programme. The Sumatran bull would upon arrival be the most genetically valuable bull in the region and given the other zoos manage their Asian elephants on a species level, they could have an interest in using this bull for AI.

Another possibility is that any bull calves born at Australia Zoo could be transferred out to join the breeding programmes at Dubbo or Werribee. Such an eventuality would be close to two decades away - but could conveniently tie in with the open range zoos exhausting their current lines - making this a win-win for them and Australia Zoo, who would surely be keen to shift on their surplus bulls.

In this event, it’s theoretically possible the Dublin bulls will be redundant to the breeding programme. The primary objective for their import was to stock the elephant exhibit at Sydney Zoo and provide companionship to their elderly cow. They’re not genetically valuable on a global scale compared to the other elephants in the region and would surely be superseded once again by the arrival of a new founder from Indonesia.

Its a case here first of seeing is believing I need to see it

 

[Zoofan15]

In the event, Australia Zoo's Sumatran Bull import does fall through (a possibility I think is highly likely), I could see them using one of the Irish boys as their last-minute option to prevent their younger two cows from never breeding. I just get a strange feeling that these two would be used over any bulls from Taronga or ZoosVic. Maybe it's because Australia Zoo and Sydney are the only privately owned zoos to hold elephants, and both may have a mutual grudge against the main Taronga/ZoosVic program.

I’m hopeful of a best case scenario, but agree it’s more likely it’ll fall though. The infrastructure needed to house a bull would have added no more than 12 months to construction costs, which raises the question of why they weren’t all imported together in my mind. It suggests getting four cows on site was the priority here.

With regards to who Australia Zoo will work with, it may as much be about who will work with them. They have a reputation for being unreliable as demonstrated by cancelling Burma’s import with days notice; and others in the industry would surely have taken a dim view of this. While they wouldn’t let this hinder a working relationship that benefited their zoo, it won’t. It’ll just help Australia Zoo breed a calf that will be related to their breeding bull (i.e. no value to their zoo’s breeding programme).

 

[Zorro]

I’m hopeful of a best case scenario, but agree it’s more likely it’ll fall though. The infrastructure needed to house a bull would have added no more than 12 months to construction costs, which raises the question of why they weren’t all imported together in my mind. It suggests getting four cows on site was the priority here.

With regards to who Australia Zoo will work with, it may as much be about who will work with them. They have a reputation for being unreliable as demonstrated by cancelling Burma’s import with days notice; and others in the industry would surely have taken a dim view of this. While they wouldn’t let this hinder a working relationship that benefited their zoo, it won’t. It’ll just help Australia Zoo breed a calf that will be related to their breeding bull (i.e. no value to their zoo’s breeding programme).

Perhaps it was the case that these elephants were only ever destined for display proposes like the 3 circus animals before them. If a bull had of been really on the radar would there not have been some provisions made to hold/house a bull long ago?.

 

[Zoofan15]

Perhaps it was the case that these elephants were only ever destined for display proposes like the 3 circus animals before them. If a bull had of been really on the radar would there not have been some provisions made to hold/house a bull long ago?.

I agree progress has been very slow, indicating that even if it is still on the cards, it's clearly not a priority.

It'd be a shame to see all four founder cows lapse into non viability as breeders - especially the younger two, who are only 8 and 12 years old respectively. It appears both us and they have conceeded Widya (2001) will be joining Megawati as a non breeding cow due to her age now.

 

[Zorro]

I agree progress has been very slow, indicating that even if it is still on the cards, it's clearly not a priority.

It'd be a shame to see all four founder cows lapse into non viability as breeders - especially the younger two, who are only 8 and 12 years old respectively. It appears both us and they have conceeded Widya (2001) will be joining Megawati as a non breeding cow due to her age now.

This is some what puzzling, now that 2 cows are on or are near the borderline limit for any possible breeding then why a bull was not imported with any younger cows instead?.
My own view would have been bringing in 1 bull with the three cows from the start?.
Why bring in any females nearing the borderline age with no provision made for even housing a bull then or even now?. I can't follow this situation?