Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

[Jambo]

This is how I see the breeding programme playing out:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo plan to open an expanded cow/calf facility, which will feature an additional holding yard and large barn capable of holding the entire matriarchal herd indoors for an extended period.

They currently have five paddocks and three barns, with one paddock designated as a recovery paddock.

The logical move is to transfer in Pak Boon and Tang Mo from Taronga and transfer out Pathi Harn and Sabai to take their place, with the former breeding with Thong Dee and Anjalee prior to their departure.

This would leave four paddocks vacant (one recovery), which would allow them to retain a further three bulls. Birth intervals will likely remain large e.g. eight years given they’d have four viable cows and a fifth juvenile cow.

Werribee Open Range Zoo:

Werribee appear to have around seven or eight exhibits and holding yards from the map. The largest will be occupied by the matriarchal herd; and another three by Luk Chai, Man Jai and in all likelihood, Putra Mas upon his transfer from Perth.

Allowing for a recovery paddock, Werribee could be left with up to three available paddocks to allow for the expansion of the herd. It’s unknown what gender ratio the upcoming cohort (or future cohorts) will contain, but bearing in mind juvenile/adolescent bulls can cohabit with each other until at least their early teens, they could afford to breed at five year intervals initially.

It would be advantageous if opportunities arose to transfer out bachelor bulls to Monarto in 10-15 years time, which could see them continue with five year birth intervals. If an option within or outside the region (i.e. exports) fails to present itself, I see birth intervals extending to eight years.

Looking at it space wise, I actually think it might be more idealistic to send Pak Boon and Tang Mo to Werribee once the facilities over there open. Dubbo already have three founder cows (alongside young Kanlaya), and even with artificial intervals, the herd could grow very quickly over the coming decade with four reproductive cows by that time. Adding Pak Boon and Tang Mo to the mix at Werribee will give Werribee a fourth reproductive cow, and potentially a third founder cow (equalising them with Dubbo in a sense). Expanding the herd early on, will also increase their chances of holding a large herd, as going via succession could take decades to reach their goal (of 20+ elephants).

Breeding Pathi Harn with Thong Dee and Anjalee next makes sense. Gung could then breed with Porntip and then Thong Dee, Anjalee and Kanlaya during their next rotation. In a decades time, he could then potentially have six surviving calves (alongside grandchildren at Werribee), and so it’ll probably be best to retire him and replace him with one of the Sydney bulls.

Regarding Werribee’s paddocks, I think we’ll find the cows will have access to much more than just one (probably three or four which will differentiate in size, landscape ect.) I think Putra Mas will have his own paddock (assuming he’s sent to Werribee), and Luk Chai will share one with Man Jai. That’s assuming everything goes to plan, but we’ll just have to wait and see how everything unfolds.

 

[Zoofan15]

Breeding Pathi Harn with Thong Dee and Anjalee next makes sense. Gung could then breed with Porntip and then Thong Dee, Anjalee and Kanlaya during their next rotation. In a decades time, he could then potentially have six surviving calves (alongside grandchildren at Werribee), and so it’ll probably be best to retire him and replace him with one of the Sydney bulls.

Regarding Werribee’s paddocks, I think we’ll find the cows will have access to much more than just one (probably three or four which will differentiate in size, landscape ect.) I think Putra Mas will have his own paddock (assuming he’s sent to Werribee), and Luk Chai will share one with Man Jai. That’s assuming everything goes to plan, but we’ll just have to wait and see how everything unfolds.

Breeding Pathi Harn with Thong Dee is the logical move as the alternative is to breed her for a third time with Gung, which wouldn’t be a genetically valuable pairing - a third bull calf from this pair would be completely surplus, as is their second bull calf together. Breeding him with Anjalee in the same rotation means Pathi Harn can then be transferred out, so it makes sense for him to cover both cows. Gung will have a longer tenure as breeding bull by virtue of being unrelated to both Porntip and Kanlaya, the latter of which hasn’t even entered the breeding programme.

Putra Mas has never cohabited with bulls and as a fully mature bull, it’s clear he’ll have his paddock. I’d expect Luk Chai and Man Jai to be housed separately from each other for most of the time by the time Man Jai within a few years. Like Pathi Harn, he can be forceful and the more placid Luk Chai will be more likely to occur injuries as they mature and the size difference levels out - similar to what was observed at Dubbo with Luk Chai and Pathi Harn.

Luk Chai’s role going forward will likely be that of a mentor bull to his sons and future bull calves, with him currently being the preferred candidate behaviour wise out of the three bulls they’ll have on site.

 

[Swanson02]

This is how I see the breeding programme playing out:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo plan to open an expanded cow/calf facility, which will feature an additional holding yard and large barn capable of holding the entire matriarchal herd indoors for an extended period.

They currently have five paddocks and three barns, with one paddock designated as a recovery paddock.

The logical move is to transfer in Pak Boon and Tang Mo from Taronga and transfer out Pathi Harn and Sabai to take their place, with the former breeding with Thong Dee and Anjalee prior to their departure.

This would leave four paddocks vacant (one recovery), which would allow them to retain a further three bulls. Birth intervals will likely remain large e.g. eight years given they’d have four viable cows and a fifth juvenile cow.

Werribee Open Range Zoo:

Werribee appear to have around seven or eight exhibits and holding yards from the map. The largest will be occupied by the matriarchal herd; and another three by Luk Chai, Man Jai and in all likelihood, Putra Mas upon his transfer from Perth.

Allowing for a recovery paddock, Werribee could be left with up to three available paddocks to allow for the expansion of the herd. It’s unknown what gender ratio the upcoming cohort (or future cohorts) will contain, but bearing in mind juvenile/adolescent bulls can cohabit with each other until at least their early teens, they could afford to breed at five year intervals initially.

It would be advantageous if opportunities arose to transfer out bachelor bulls to Monarto in 10-15 years time, which could see them continue with five year birth intervals. If an option within or outside the region (i.e. exports) fails to present itself, I see birth intervals extending to eight years.

Personally, I believe Pak Boon and Tang Mo will be the last ever elephants to reside at Taronga and that they are just delaying the inevitable by waiting to transfer them to either TWPZ or Werribee.
From hearing all the public complaints Taronga gets because of holding them, I can't see how swapping them for Pathi Harn and Sabai will put them in any better position with the public. The public is uneducated and a lonely elephant to them is a lonely elephant no matter if it is a bull or not. Also, I can't see Taronga transferring Pathi Harn out of TWPZ. He provides extra coverage for Anjalee who we know has had cycling issues and it is additionally disadvantageous to move him in case Anjalee/Thong Dee have any pregnancy/birthing issues that require them to conceive again whilst he's at Taronga.
Also, it would be very costly to move him out just for a couple of years to Taronga before moving him back in after their expansion. I think Taronga will bite the bullet and run at/over capacity with Pak Boon and Tang Mo for just a couple of years while they wait for the expansion to finish.

Ultimately I believe a lot of the region's future plans quite obviously will be decided in the next 12 months with the births of these next three calves at Melbourne with a lot of dominos starting to fall once their genders are confirmed.

Some of these "domino" decisions I can see coming -

• I believe Taronga is waiting until the genders of these Melbourne's calves are announced before they decide on what to do with Sabai. I.e. maybe retain him if the majority/all are female, or export him if the majority/all are male as Gung/Thong Dee's genetics are still unrepresented overseas. Also, I could see Sabai alone being exchanged to create space for Pak Boon/Tang Mo, then spending a couple years alone at Taronga before finally being sent off to the US/Europe.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also compel the program to move Pak Boon, Tang Mo, and Permai to Werribee (as said by @Jambo), this would introduce an extra breeding cow and also boost female numbers in the matriarchal herd.
• Likewise, a majority/all-female cohort may push Pak Boon and Tang Mo to TWPZ as many of us believe is already planned.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also compel Monarto to start drawing up plans for an Asian bachelor facility as plenty of young elephants will be available in the future.
• Conversely, a majority/all-female cohort may push Monarto away from Asian elephants due to lack of availability and into the expensive but high reward option of acquiring a herd of wild "cull" African elephants, à la SDSP.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also encourage TWPZ to only use Gung for one or two more breeding cycles before retiring him and converting primarily to Pathi Harn, this will also likely bring the Irish boys into the program sooner.
• Either way, Werribee should be Putra Mas' transferal destination but a majority/all-female cohort will all but confirm it imo.

 

[Zoofan15]

Personally, I believe Pak Boon and Tang Mo will be the last ever elephants to reside at Taronga and that they are just delaying the inevitable by waiting to transfer them to either TWPZ or Werribee.
From hearing all the public complaints Taronga gets because of holding them, I can't see how swapping them for Pathi Harn and Sabai will put them in any better position with the public. The public is uneducated and a lonely elephant to them is a lonely elephant no matter if it is a bull or not. Also, I can't see Taronga transferring Pathi Harn out of TWPZ. He provides extra coverage for Anjalee who we know has had cycling issues and it is additionally disadvantageous to move him in case Anjalee/Thong Dee have any pregnancy/birthing issues that require them to conceive again whilst he's at Taronga.
Also, it would be very costly to move him out just for a couple of years to Taronga before moving him back in after their expansion. I think Taronga will bite the bullet and run at/over capacity with Pak Boon and Tang Mo for just a couple of years while they wait for the expansion to finish.

Ultimately I believe a lot of the region's future plans quite obviously will be decided in the next 12 months with the births of these next three calves at Melbourne with a lot of dominos starting to fall once their genders are confirmed.

Some of these "domino" decisions I can see coming -

• I believe Taronga is waiting until the genders of these Melbourne's calves are announced before they decide on what to do with Sabai. I.e. maybe retain him if the majority/all are female, or export him if the majority/all are male as Gung/Thong Dee's genetics are still unrepresented overseas. Also, I could see Sabai alone being exchanged to create space for Pak Boon/Tang Mo, then spending a couple years alone at Taronga before finally being sent off to the US/Europe.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also compel the program to move Pak Boon, Tang Mo, and Permai to Werribee (as said by @Jambo), this would introduce an extra breeding cow and also boost female numbers in the matriarchal herd.
• Likewise, a majority/all-female cohort may push Pak Boon and Tang Mo to TWPZ as many of us believe is already planned.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also compel Monarto to start drawing up plans for an Asian bachelor facility as plenty of young elephants will be available in the future.
• Conversely, a majority/all-female cohort may push Monarto away from Asian elephants due to lack of availability and into the expensive but high reward option of acquiring a herd of wild "cull" African elephants, à la SDSP.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also encourage TWPZ to only use Gung for one or two more breeding cycles before retiring him and converting primarily to Pathi Harn, this will also likely bring the Irish boys into the program sooner.
• Either way, Werribee should be Putra Mas' transferal destination but a majority/all-female cohort will all but confirm it imo.

All excellent points. While many have argued Taronga will be keen to retain their elephants so as not to concede a significant point of difference to Sydney Zoo, I believe phasing out elephants is the right thing to do and the construction of the new matriarchal facility at Taronga Western Plains will present the opportunity to do that.

A Theory on Pak Boon

I’m wondering if Taronga have retired Pak Boon from breeding. An unexpected case of TB was identified in Pak Boon following the birth of her first calf in 2010. Since she’d tested negative prior to import in 2006, it was stated this had laid dormant and been activated by her weakened immune system following parturition.

I’ve previously wondered if Tukta’s death in 2018 was cause by EEHV becoming activated in Pak Boon. Having given birth to her second calf in 2017, the zoo would have (wisely) put Pak Boon on a high dose of antibiotics for several months (even a year) to prevent a repeat flare up. After this time, they may have been content to reduce the dosage, which subsequently caused EEHV to activate under her still recovering immune system.

To be clear, this is just a theory, but a reasonable point to consider - that it might be considered unwise to breed from Pak Boon again given the expense of the antibiotics if nothing else over a prolonged period to counter the possibility of TB activation; and the potential of an EEHV activation from a weakened immune system.

The consequence of Pak Boon no longer breeding:

In the event Pak Boon has been removed from the breeding programme, this would influence her destination.

The main justification for sending her to Werribee would be to establish a third matriarchal line (they’re currently headed for building up a large herd descended from just two females); so if she’s non viable as a breeder, then Dubbo is the probable choice. They’d be happy to add Pak Boon and Tang Mo to their female founder base, without the pressure of having to breed from either of them.

Pak Boon and Tang Mo are both familiar with Porntip and Thong Dee at Dubbo, which would assist in introductions. Pak Boon would need to concede her position as matriarch to Porntip, but given their close friendship, this would potentially be more seamless than the introduction of Pak Boon to the unfamiliar (albeit docile) cows at Werribee.

 

[Jambo]

Personally, I believe Pak Boon and Tang Mo will be the last ever elephants to reside at Taronga and that they are just delaying the inevitable by waiting to transfer them to either TWPZ or Werribee.
From hearing all the public complaints Taronga gets because of holding them, I can't see how swapping them for Pathi Harn and Sabai will put them in any better position with the public. The public is uneducated and a lonely elephant to them is a lonely elephant no matter if it is a bull or not. Also, I can't see Taronga transferring Pathi Harn out of TWPZ. He provides extra coverage for Anjalee who we know has had cycling issues and it is additionally disadvantageous to move him in case Anjalee/Thong Dee have any pregnancy/birthing issues that require them to conceive again whilst he's at Taronga.
Also, it would be very costly to move him out just for a couple of years to Taronga before moving him back in after their expansion. I think Taronga will bite the bullet and run at/over capacity with Pak Boon and Tang Mo for just a couple of years while they wait for the expansion to finish.

Ultimately I believe a lot of the region's future plans quite obviously will be decided in the next 12 months with the births of these next three calves at Melbourne with a lot of dominos starting to fall once their genders are confirmed.

Some of these "domino" decisions I can see coming -

• I believe Taronga is waiting until the genders of these Melbourne's calves are announced before they decide on what to do with Sabai. I.e. maybe retain him if the majority/all are female, or export him if the majority/all are male as Gung/Thong Dee's genetics are still unrepresented overseas. Also, I could see Sabai alone being exchanged to create space for Pak Boon/Tang Mo, then spending a couple years alone at Taronga before finally being sent off to the US/Europe.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also compel the program to move Pak Boon, Tang Mo, and Permai to Werribee (as said by @Jambo), this would introduce an extra breeding cow and also boost female numbers in the matriarchal herd.
• Likewise, a majority/all-female cohort may push Pak Boon and Tang Mo to TWPZ as many of us believe is already planned.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also compel Monarto to start drawing up plans for an Asian bachelor facility as plenty of young elephants will be available in the future.
• Conversely, a majority/all-female cohort may push Monarto away from Asian elephants due to lack of availability and into the expensive but high reward option of acquiring a herd of wild "cull" African elephants, à la SDSP.
• A majority/all-male cohort may also encourage TWPZ to only use Gung for one or two more breeding cycles before retiring him and converting primarily to Pathi Harn, this will also likely bring the Irish boys into the program sooner.
• Either way, Werribee should be Putra Mas' transferal destination but a majority/all-female cohort will all but confirm it imo.

Those are all very good points.

I agree in saying Taronga probably won't continue to hold elephants into the future (bar the remaining Pak Boon and Tang Mo). They've expressed their disinterest in holding bulls in a city zoo setting in the past, and once Pak Boon and Tang Mo leave (which is inevitable); there are really no female candidates for Taronga with the majority of the regions females living in large herds out at Dubbo and Werribee.

The Melbourne calves are all fathered by Luk Chai (Sabai's full brother) anyway, so there's theoretically no reason to retain him in the region, especially as Werribee plan to continue with Luk Chai as their breeding bull at Werribee.

Man Jai may be of use at Dubbo in the future, but this will all depend on the use of Pathi Harn there (Man Jai's half brother). It might make sense (in essence) to send Man Jai to Dubbo (being unrelated to all four females) as their next breeding male; and send Pathi Harn and Sabai to a bachelor facility. This could be a driving force for Monarto to construct a bachelor facility with two bulls becoming available.

All excellent points. While many have argued Taronga will be keen to retain their elephants so as not to concede a significant point of difference to Sydney Zoo, I believe phasing out elephants is the right thing to do and the construction of the new matriarchal facility at Taronga Western Plains will present the opportunity to do that.

A Theory on Pak Boon

I’m wondering if Taronga have retired Pak Boon from breeding. An unexpected case of TB was identified in Pak Boon following the birth of her first calf in 2010. Since she’d tested negative prior to import in 2006, it was stated this had laid dormant and been activated by her weakened immune system following parturition.

I’ve previously wondered if Tukta’s death in 2018 was cause by EEHV becoming activated in Pak Boon. Having given birth to her second calf in 2017, the zoo would have (wisely) put Pak Boon on a high dose of antibiotics for several months (even a year) to prevent a repeat flare up. After this time, they may have been content to reduce the dosage, which subsequently caused EEHV to activate under her still recovering immune system.

To be clear, this is just a theory, but a reasonable point to consider - that it might be considered unwise to breed from Pak Boon again given the expense of the antibiotics if nothing else over a prolonged period to counter the possibility of TB activation; and the potential of an EEHV activation from a weakened immune system.

The consequence of Pak Boon no longer breeding:

In the event Pak Boon has been removed from the breeding programme, this would influence her destination.

The main justification for sending her to Werribee would be to establish a third matriarchal line (they’re currently headed for building up a large herd descended from just two females); so if she’s non viable as a breeder, then Dubbo is the probable choice. They’d be happy to add Pak Boon and Tang Mo to their female founder base, without the pressure of having to breed from either of them.

Pak Boon and Tang Mo are both familiar with Porntip and Thong Dee at Dubbo, which would assist in introductions. Pak Boon would need to concede her position as matriarch to Porntip, but given their close friendship, this would potentially be more seamless than the introduction of Pak Boon to the unfamiliar (albeit docile) cows at Werribee.

That's a really interesting theory and does have some basis to it.

Pak Boon is a rather moody and unpredictable female; and adding high doses of medication to that would make her quite the character. This may be another reason why Taronga haven't elected to send Pak Boon to Dubbo yet. If an EEHV outbreak occurred there, it could potentially be more damaging to their larger herd.

It's been five years now since Jai Dee's birth, and when you also add Pak Boon's age and representation into the equation, it'll be vital for her to breed now. AI is the only way, and the best option is probably Putra Mas at Perth. The fact that they haven't breed her already though makes me believe one of the two:

a) She has indeed been retired from breeding.

or

b) The plan is to await transfer to Dubbo or Werribee following the completion of their respective expansions.

I

 

[Abbey]

If it were up to me, I would love to see Dubbo expand their elephant quarters by including the hippo exhibit across the road. This would likely involve building some sort of means for the elephants to move across to that area (whether a bridge, which would be ideal but could be somewhat challenging considering that cars need to be able to drive around the zoo as well as visitors walking and cycling, or a series of gates which could be closed when the elephants are moving).

Such a move would have the advantage of giving the elephants additional swimming area (I'm not sure whether or not it would have to be deepened for the larger species) as well as more land area. The big advantage is that it would link the elephants to TWPZ's other Asian species, particularly the Sumatran Tigers and the white-handed gibbons (albeit a phase-out species, but could be replaced by another Asian species in the future).

Of course, this would require building other accommodation for hippos, so it's unlikely this would happen, but it's something which popped into my head when looking at the TWPZ map the other day.

Here is the current TWPZ map, for reference: https://taronga.org.au/sites/default/files/2022-06/TWPZ-Map-ED16v26.pdf

 

[Zoofan15]

If it were up to me, I would love to see Dubbo expand their elephant quarters by including the hippo exhibit across the road. This would likely involve building some sort of means for the elephants to move across to that area (whether a bridge, which would be ideal but could be somewhat challenging considering that cars need to be able to drive around the zoo as well as visitors walking and cycling, or a series of gates which could be closed when the elephants are moving).

Such a move would have the advantage of giving the elephants additional swimming area (I'm not sure whether or not it would have to be deepened for the larger species) as well as more land area. The big advantage is that it would link the elephants to TWPZ's other Asian species, particularly the Sumatran Tigers and the white-handed gibbons (albeit a phase-out species, but could be replaced by another Asian species in the future).

Of course, this would require building other accommodation for hippos, so it's unlikely this would happen, but it's something which popped into my head when looking at the TWPZ map the other day.

Here is the current TWPZ map, for reference: https://taronga.org.au/sites/default/files/2022-06/TWPZ-Map-ED16v26.pdf

It’s not a bad idea, with the Indian rhinoceros from South Asia on the other side creating a link to the Sri Lankan elephant - and if they could get those Indian antelope off the Savannah, I’d be truly happy.

The Common hippopotamus exhibits would need to be extensively remodelled. Building hippopotamus exhibits afresh would be an exciting opportunity to build facilities tailored to the future needs of the breeding programme; but given the costs involved, I can guarantee they’ll take the simpler and more cost effective option of extending the current elephant facilities.

From the map, it’s clear the new barn and yard for housing the matriarchal herd will be built in between the Addax and exisiting elephant facilities. This is additionally important for creating facilities that aren’t accessible from 360 degrees as any exhibit built on the site of the exisiting hippopotamus exhibits. When in musth, it’s desirable to keep the bulls (especially Gung who’s aggressive) out of sight of the public given his tendency to throw rocks etc. at people while in this heightened state.

 

[Jambo]

Visited Melbourne a few days ago and chatted with a keeper for a bit. Found out some interesting info:

First, there were apparently initial plans to send Bong Su and Mek Kapah elsewhere in the late 90's. Not sure if this was the Monarto plan, which I think was back in the 80's? If not, potentially they could've been sent to Dubbo, or, even Auckland.

Due dates for the calves are now pretty official- Dokkoon and Num Oi are due Christmas day with Mali due on New Years. Much closer than we anticipated, and apparently Dokkoon and Num Oi conceived on the very first day of introductions! Mali conceived around a week later. Luk Chai's quite the bull.

Mali apparently also dosen't like the 'internal' ultrasounds the keepers conduct - so she's a lot harder to get an exact date from, with them relying on blood work ect.

The calves won't be sent to Werribee until winter 2024 at earliest. The bulls will likely be sent much earlier (probably Autumn/Winter 2024) - but that all relies on construction. Cows will follow probably sometime in Spring/Summer 2024-25 assuming construction continues to plan. The plan is for all eight to go together at this stage (all eight cows and calves); but they're still unsure how it'll pan out at this point.

Breeding wise; management still hasn't decided but the keeper 'lent' towards them still breeding them at artificial intervals.

 

[Zoofan15]

Visited Melbourne a few days ago and chatted with a keeper for a bit. Found out some interesting info:

First, there were apparently initial plans to send Bong Su and Mek Kapah elsewhere in the late 90's. Not sure if this was the Monarto plan, which I think was back in the 80's? If not, potentially they could've been sent to Dubbo, or, even Auckland.

Due dates for the calves are now pretty official- Dokkoon and Num Oi are due Christmas day with Mali due on New Years. Much closer than we anticipated, and apparently Dokkoon and Num Oi conceived on the very first day of introductions! Mali conceived around a week later. Luk Chai's quite the bull.

Mali apparently also dosen't like the 'internal' ultrasounds the keepers conduct - so she's a lot harder to get an exact date from, with them relying on blood work ect.

The calves won't be sent to Werribee until winter 2024 at earliest. The bulls will likely be sent much earlier (probably Autumn/Winter 2024) - but that all relies on construction. Cows will follow probably sometime in Spring/Summer 2024-25 assuming construction continues to plan. The plan is for all eight to go together at this stage (all eight cows and calves); but they're still unsure how it'll pan out at this point.

Breeding wise; management still hasn't decided but the keeper 'lent' towards them still breeding them at artificial intervals.

That's the first time I've ever heard a zoo narrow down their elephant's due dates to a day. With all three cows apparently due the same week, let's hope Mali is the first to give birth. She'd greatly benefit from the support of her mother, which will be limited if Dokkoon has a newborn at her feet.

I can confirm Auckland Zoo had no plans to receive a bull during the 1990's. After the incident with Rajah in the 1930's (shot due to the zoo lacking the facilities to manage a bull; and being unable to do so under free contact), a bull was never considered until the 2000's. The exhibit had a capacity of three cows when it opened in 1992, though this represented a desire to give the elephants more room rather than an intention to import a third cow.

 

[Abbey]

Visited Melbourne a few days ago and chatted with a keeper for a bit. Found out some interesting info:

First, there were apparently initial plans to send Bong Su and Mek Kapah elsewhere in the late 90's. Not sure if this was the Monarto plan, which I think was back in the 80's? If not, potentially they could've been sent to Dubbo, or, even Auckland.

Due dates for the calves are now pretty official- Dokkoon and Num Oi are due Christmas day with Mali due on New Years. Much closer than we anticipated, and apparently Dokkoon and Num Oi conceived on the very first day of introductions! Mali conceived around a week later. Luk Chai's quite the bull.

Mali apparently also dosen't like the 'internal' ultrasounds the keepers conduct - so she's a lot harder to get an exact date from, with them relying on blood work ect.

The calves won't be sent to Werribee until winter 2024 at earliest. The bulls will likely be sent much earlier (probably Autumn/Winter 2024) - but that all relies on construction. Cows will follow probably sometime in Spring/Summer 2024-25 assuming construction continues to plan. The plan is for all eight to go together at this stage (all eight cows and calves); but they're still unsure how it'll pan out at this point.

Breeding wise; management still hasn't decided but the keeper 'lent' towards them still breeding them at artificial intervals.

Thanks for this info. It's little surprise to me that Luk Chai is a chip off the old block when it comes to breeding - his father Gung was/is similarly virile. While this was probably already evident as a result of their (naturally conceived) pregnancies, it is good to have confirmation that Dokkoon and Numoi have not been inhibited through originally being paired with a behavioural non-breeder in Bong Su.

 

[Zoofan15]

Thanks for this info. It's little surprise to me that Luk Chai is a chip off the old block when it comes to breeding - his father Gung was/is similarly virile. While this was probably already evident as a result of their (naturally conceived) pregnancies, it is good to have confirmation that Dokkoon and Numoi have not been inhibited through originally being paired with a behavioural non-breeder in Bong Su.

That’s a good point that this was Num Oi’s first experience of natural mating since arriving as a five year old in 2006. Though we know little of Dokoon’s background, Mali was reported to be her first calf so it’s reasonable to assume her experience of being mounted by bulls was equally limited. While a well performing bull like Luk Chai is an asset, so too are three behaviourally normal cows - who will surely form the foundation of a successful breeding herd at Werribee.

My biggest concern was Dokoon’s ability to conceive after such a lengthy gap since her last birth in December 2022. They were fortunate she conceived so easily given she was at the upper limits of what’s regarded a safe birth interval in this species with regards to reproductive health.

While we may not have the capacity/demand for calves to allow for natural breeding at Werribee, I’d expect to see artificial birth intervals of around five to six years (as opposed to nine years).

 

[Jambo]

That's the first time I've ever heard a zoo narrow down their elephant's due dates to a day. With all three cows apparently due the same week, let's hope Mali is the first to give birth. She'd greatly benefit from the support of her mother, which will be limited if Dokkoon has a newborn at her feet.

I can confirm Auckland Zoo had no plans to receive a bull during the 1990's. After the incident with Rajah in the 1930's (shot due to the zoo lacking the facilities to manage a bull; and being unable to do so under free contact), a bull was never considered until the 2000's. The exhibit had a capacity of three cows when it opened in 1992, though this represented a desire to give the elephants more room rather than an intention to import a third cow.

I was quite surprised; and those are just rough dates i'm assuming. But the keeper did specifically state Christmas day.

There's still hope Mali gives birth earlier. Dokkoon has previously carried her pregnancies for almost 23 months; so history indicates she might give birth in early January again.

Ruling Auckland out; the only option within the region is possibly Dubbo. I don't believe Taronga would've had the space for two bulls, and the keeper said the move was virtually done but was cancelled at the very last minute. From there, they rethought their decision with no other realistic options, which makes me think that zoo that cancelled was from within the region.

 

[Swanson02]

Just a quick question, do we have a list of all the elephants in the region's barn names?

I know some wouldn't have one but it'd be interesting to know which do and the reasons for why they have that specific name, we are a culture of nicknames after all . Imo, most of the geographically accurate names seem perfectly fine and none are hard to pronounce, so there must be other training reasons for a few of the given barn names .

 

[Zoofan15]

Just a quick question, do we have a list of all the elephants in the region's barn names?

I know some wouldn't have one but it'd be interesting to know which do and the reasons for why they have that specific name, we are a culture of nicknames after all . Imo, most of the geographically accurate names seem perfectly fine and none are hard to pronounce, so there must be other training reasons for a few of the given barn names .

The main reasons elephants have barn names is to avoid the public trying to issue commands - as well as becoming desensitised to their names repetition.

Melbourne have done a much better job than they have with their apes at keeping their elephants barn names under wraps. Man Jai’s barn name is Bob; and Num Oi’s daughter was given the barn name of Willow prior to her passing. Dokoon’s alternative name is Chaba.

Auckland Zoo never had barn names for their elephants. Instead they trained them in Sri Lankan and German, so the public wouldn’t be able to shout commands. Similarly the pronunciation of some names preempts this e.g. Ongard is pronounced “Ong-aa” - something most visitors wouldn’t be aware of.

 

[Abbey]

The main reasons elephants have barn names is to avoid the public trying to issue commands - as well as becoming desensitised to their names repetition.

Melbourne have done a much better job than they have with their apes at keeping their elephants barn names under wraps. Man Jai’s barn name is Bob; and Num Oi’s daughter was given the barn name of Willow prior to her passing. Dokoon’s alternative name is Chaba.

Auckland Zoo never had barn names for their elephants. Instead they trained them in Sri Lankan and German, so the public wouldn’t be able to shout commands. Similarly the pronunciation of some names preempts this e.g. Ongard is pronounced “Ong-aa” - something most visitors wouldn’t be aware of.

I wonder whether the concept of barn names being unknown to the public is losing favour. Melbourne publicised Man Jai being known as Bob through Mega Zoo, which otherwise wouldn't have been public knowledge (ie, it's not a particularly easy to guess name/nickname compared to Man Jai).

Similarly, the male orangutan now seems to be publicly known as Malu, with his 'public name' Menyaru seeming to have fallen by the wayside in recent years. Likewise, when moved to Taronga, Jumatano started being publicly known as Johari, which was her private name. Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree, but this has just been my perception of things.

 

[Zoofan15]

I wonder whether the concept of barn names being unknown to the public is losing favour. Melbourne publicised Man Jai being known as Bob through Mega Zoo, which otherwise wouldn't have been public knowledge (ie, it's not a particularly easy to guess name/nickname compared to Man Jai).

Similarly, the male orangutan now seems to be publicly known as Malu, with his 'public name' Menyaru seeming to have fallen by the wayside in recent years. Likewise, when moved to Taronga, Jumatano started being publicly known as Johari, which was her private name. Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree, but this has just been my perception of things.

In the case of elephants in a free contact situation, ensuring the public weren’t able to command the elephant was critical, so perhaps the move to protected contact has negated that to a degree.

Many animals (especially those as intelligent as elephants and great apes) are capable of distinguishing their keepers from the general public e.g. meerkats responding with excitement when they see their keeper so I’d assume they’ve learnt that any efforts on behalf of the public to garner their attention (by shouting commands, shouting their name etc) will earn them no reward; but a keeper trying to get their attention during a training session will follow it up with positive reinforcement.

In addition, online databases are widely available for gorillas and orangutans, revealing their house names.

 

[Jambo]

The main reasons elephants have barn names is to avoid the public trying to issue commands - as well as becoming desensitised to their names repetition.

Melbourne have done a much better job than they have with their apes at keeping their elephants barn names under wraps. Man Jai’s barn name is Bob; and Num Oi’s daughter was given the barn name of Willow prior to her passing. Dokoon’s alternative name is Chaba.

Auckland Zoo never had barn names for their elephants. Instead they trained them in Sri Lankan and German, so the public wouldn’t be able to shout commands. Similarly the pronunciation of some names preempts this e.g. Ongard is pronounced “Ong-aa” - something most visitors wouldn’t be aware of.

I've never ever heard keepers call Man Jai 'Bob' for one...even when they're training him away from public talks ect; they've always called him Man Jai. Sometimes such names can be hard to remember by the public, so it's usually the other way around, with the more simple names being their public names and their actual heritage names being their barn names. During my last visit, at one point, they called all the cows into Luk Chai's paddock, and the keepers definitely used their 'public' names. Not sure whether the barn names have officially been given up, as, as you say, they're now managed under protective contact.

Chaba was actually Dokkoon's initial name in Thailand. She was rechristened Dokkoon when she arrived at Melbourne. The same was for Thong Dee I believe.

Keepers pronounced Ongard's name the correct way, so i'd imagine some would latch onto that. Although I myself mispronounced it for many years. His nickname was Ardy, which I believe Miami still use.

 

[Jambo]

I wonder whether the concept of barn names being unknown to the public is losing favour. Melbourne publicised Man Jai being known as Bob through Mega Zoo, which otherwise wouldn't have been public knowledge (ie, it's not a particularly easy to guess name/nickname compared to Man Jai).

Similarly, the male orangutan now seems to be publicly known as Malu, with his 'public name' Menyaru seeming to have fallen by the wayside in recent years. Likewise, when moved to Taronga, Jumatano started being publicly known as Johari, which was her private name. Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree, but this has just been my perception of things.

Melbourne have always christened their primates with barn names; but it seems this has lost interest over the last decade. Dewi didn't have a second name; and neither does Kanzi afaik.

 

[Zoofan15]

I've never ever heard keepers call Man Jai 'Bob' for one...even when they're training him away from public talks ect; they've always called him Man Jai.

Man Jai’s house name was revealed in this video, where the staff were calling him Bob: Video: Zookeepers prepare for risky elephant surgery on Mega Zoo

Chaba was actually Dokkoon's initial name in Thailand. She was rechristened Dokkoon when she arrived at Melbourne. The same was for Thong Dee I believe.

Teduh at Perth Zoo also had the alternate name of Chepam.

 

[Jambo]

Man Jai’s house name was revealed in this video, where the staff were calling him Bob: Video: Zookeepers prepare for risky elephant surgery on Mega Zoo

Yep but interestingly i've only ever heard the keepers call him Man Jai, even during training sessions.