The Japanese zoo you mentioned doesn't keep Conraua goliath but rather Conraua robusta. I called them on the phone and that's what they told me.
The Japanese zoo you mentioned doesn't keep Conraua goliath but rather Conraua robusta. I called them on the phone and that's what they told me.
These are so interesting, thank you for your comments!! I would never have considered swifts as even being in captivity! I willo look into all these, so thanks again!!! I'm excited to read about them
Chimney Swifts show up at rescue centers like New York's Wild Bird Fund but once rehabbed they get released.
Sicarius
Well-Known Member
I'm glad to see that @RatioTile already mentioned two out of three things I wanted to bring into detail. As he stated: there are indeed some bearded seals in Japanese parks too. And the goliath frogs in captivity all belong to the species robusta, which looks very similar to the true goliath but is more successful in captivity. The real Conraua goliath has proven itself impossible to keep because of stress. They jump themselves to the death against the walls of the enclosure. I have talked to professionals who have tried. All species outside Cameroon are now all Conraua robusta. This species is also not a big success under human care but is considered doable.
Regarding this, there are multiple three-toed sloths in private hands. Even very recently there was an import to Europe of which the animals seem to eat well. Breeding is a different story, however.
Why. Just. Why.
Aardwolf
Well-Known Member
Getting any species established in captivity to the point where it can be self sustaining involves a lot of trial and error. Species that we now take for granted that zoos can keep were once major challenges. I'm confident that a lot of these "impossible" species we would be able to maintain if we really wanted to... but the fact is that, in doing so, we would end up sacrificing a lot of individuals during the "experimentation" phase. So yeah, I bet we'd crack the mystery of keeping and breeding goliath frogs - but we'd kill a lot of them in the process. A hundred years ago, no one really had any objections to doing that. Today, with a greater emphasis on animal welfare and concerns about the status of species in the wild, those sacrifices don't seem worth it to as many people. And that's not even considering the much different legal landscape. Carl Hagenbeck never had to fill out CITES permits.
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Sicarius
Well-Known Member
Because the number of species in western zoos is declining every day because of the harsh restrictions set by governments. Animal activism has driven society to see zoos from a whole different perspective. Obviously, we all want captive-bred animals everywhere in every park around the world. But that's unrealistic and if we would only focus on the animals we have right now, we will only have 5 species in zoos in a few decades' time. Only those few species that do extremely well and keep on breeding without a need for new bloodlines. Everything else would be forbidden or would have died out. Catching wild animals -that are not yet endangered- to look if breeding them within the limits we have in Europe is possible, is a much better alternative. Who knows? Perhaps they find out about a working diet that is successful for these sloths. You would never find out if nobody would try. It sure sounded promising when I heard this news last week. The animals were in very good shape.Why. Just. Why.
The private pet trade has many ugly sides, but it's the beating heart of zoos around the world. Don't be too fast to judge. If a zoo would import them with some nice words like 'new breeding project' everyone here would accept it without a second thought. Don't forget that it is the private trade that saved many species that are lost in the wild. Think of Simandoa conserfariam or Gonatodes daudini. Three-toed sloths are undescribably expensive, I think the buyers won't get them just to have a cool pet. I'm sure they intend to breed them. If they do, this is critical information to breed other three-toed sloths that are endangered in the wild, like Bradypus pygmaeus.
On the other hand, I also agree with @Aardwolf. We must be careful that collecting for breeding projects happens sustainably. We must not catch every single animal from an area and then conclude they don't breed in captivity after all died out. That's the difference with some famous smugglers...
And now back to the topic
Now that's quite the dramatic hot load of ********.
There's a lot of species kept currently in Europe, many breeding, many being managed fairly well.
Ofcourse not every quirky rodent or snake will fit within this roster, but most endangered species, the ones for who it matters, do get their fair share of protection.
Ah true!
Sure, the private may be seen as a beating heart, but it's a terribly toxic one at that.
And yeah I do judge. If a zoo was to import a bunch of sloths who are KNOWN to be difficult to keep for no other true reason then to just want to have quirky rare sloths, and then play it off as researching their diets. Then yeah no I do think it's stupid.
Three-toed sloths in a zoo fullfills a similar role the currently present Linne's sloths, and very well breeding in captivity so it wont die out in a few decades time, so perhaps 1 of those 5 I guess
. So is there really a good reason to import them?I guess perhaps the Western-Savior complex is a good reason..
And yeah, the roach and lizard are nice examples, another one is chinchilla or axolotl. But there is a huge difference between keeping a critically endangered species alive in private trade lobbies or importing a species that is currently not assesed to be endangered.
one being more valuable in captivity then the other, especially in the western world.
Feels a bit contracting to what you basically just said you think is good but alright
In the case of these sloths, they seem to struggle in western worlds, but not as much within their native range where their diet can be supplied much easier. So let them keep the species and work with them.
Some species like this that are difficult to keep outside native range; pronghorns, three-toed sloths etc, perhaps should just be kept within native range facilities. My hot take.
Sicarius
Well-Known Member
Interesting response! I both agree and disagree with many of the things you said. And I respect your opinion on this matter without a doubt. Obviously, the first part was a bit dramatic, but it was only to make my point. The way you formulated your first sentence is however a lot less respectful.
Also glad to see someone would be critical about a zoo as well, as many people would not. I hope we can talk about this more in chat, I'll contact you there if you like. Ethics about captivity is always an interesting matter. I'm obviously a big supporter of the private trade because I have seen the results close by.
To go back on the rails of this topic: birds from the genus Procellariidae have been difficult to keep long-term in captivity. Few parks have had an albatross, but I have yet to hear about captive breeding.
Also glad to see someone would be critical about a zoo as well, as many people would not. I hope we can talk about this more in chat, I'll contact you there if you like. Ethics about captivity is always an interesting matter. I'm obviously a big supporter of the private trade because I have seen the results close by.
To go back on the rails of this topic: birds from the genus Procellariidae have been difficult to keep long-term in captivity. Few parks have had an albatross, but I have yet to hear about captive breeding.
Corangurilla
Well-Known Member
I think Tarsiers have the same suicide issue as Goliath Frogs, although that may be an urban legend/misinterpretation/exaggeration.
Also, what’s the problem with Pronghorns outside of North America? They never struck me as a problematic species.
Also, what’s the problem with Pronghorns outside of North America? They never struck me as a problematic species.
They're problematic even in parts of North America, you'll notice many of the holders are within or near their native range. They're an environmentally sensitive species rather like Saiga are. Someone may have better specifics.
Corangurilla
Well-Known Member
Did some reading up and it might have to do with their super-specialized lungs.
Asian golden cat:
In most cases, they'll only breed if kept off display and in many incidences, the male has killed the female - both upon introduction and within established pairs. Following successful breeding, it's not uncommon for a female to cannibalise her young or injure them from stress e.g. wounds on the neck from repeated carrying - even when held off display.
In general, the adults don't make good display animals due to their preference for privacy, which combined with other factors has led to widespread phase outs. It's a shame as it's one of my favourite species.
In most cases, they'll only breed if kept off display and in many incidences, the male has killed the female - both upon introduction and within established pairs. Following successful breeding, it's not uncommon for a female to cannibalise her young or injure them from stress e.g. wounds on the neck from repeated carrying - even when held off display.
In general, the adults don't make good display animals due to their preference for privacy, which combined with other factors has led to widespread phase outs. It's a shame as it's one of my favourite species.
Sounds a lot like cheetahs 50 years ago really, but with more aggression vs dying young from various illnesses and other things.
Aardwolf
Well-Known Member
I was going to say, like clouded leopards twenty years ago
Agreed. I feel like Cheetah husbandry had improved vastly with regards to reproduction in particular with mate choice and absence of other big cat species in the surrounding exhibits now widely recongnised as conductive to breeding success.
Single cubs are now routinely pulled for handraising due to the natural instinct of the mother to reject them; with the cub matched with foster litters or a dog.
Even larger litters are paired with dogs, nearly every facility has them at this point, it makes such a difference. They're breeding *too* well, really.
Pinnipeds (seals and sea lions) do thrive in human care, however they are notorious for developing eye issues like cataracts, blindness, etc. There's some theories behind it, including exhibit brightness being a potential factor, however it's not fully understood. It's standard practice to train them for eye drops using saline solution like with contacts, so that when they do need meds they are ready for it.
I apologize if that is off-topic! They definitely thrive, but their eye care is an issue that could use more research
ETA: Maned wolves are a challenge because their diet is not fully understood. They are omnivorous and eat plants/fruits for a significant portion of their diet, however they still haven't perfected the diet of maned wolves. That's not to say they shouldn't be in captivity, but it still presents a challenge to their care.
I apologize if that is off-topic! They definitely thrive, but their eye care is an issue that could use more research
ETA: Maned wolves are a challenge because their diet is not fully understood. They are omnivorous and eat plants/fruits for a significant portion of their diet, however they still haven't perfected the diet of maned wolves. That's not to say they shouldn't be in captivity, but it still presents a challenge to their care.
Many come into captivity already blind after being rescued, it seems to be a common issue with sealions especially.
I don't know that any diet is "perfect", they all have advantages and disadvantages and sometimes need adjusting. The diet of maned wolves is certainly far better understood than say pangolins.
Although it’s been a few years since I’ve discussed this with anyone “in the know,” I last heard they were also rather difficult to keep due to some sort of microbe that was shed in their feces. I unfortunately do not recall the specifics, but I believe there was a serious concern about reaching too high a concentration of this microbe. As a result, keepers had to be very meticulous when cleaning pronghorn enclosures. I expect this also has something to do with the species’ reduced presence in captivity.
splendens
Well-Known Member
Most marine species below a certain depth do not do well without without pressure even when adjusted because of something going wrong with unfolding. Species such as Echinocrepis and sea pigs do not do well because the pressure plays a role in something with their genes or dna and because of their diet living on the muddy bottoms.