What are they doing to the dolphin complex? Are they expanding the pool in area and/or depth?
Brookfield Zoo Master Plan Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter pachyderm pro
- Start date
What could really be changed about Pinneped Point?
I guess they could remodel the tanks a little for the current species. Hopefully keep the statue of Olga since that's too iconic to remove.
Thank you for the update @pachyderm pro because I'd forgotten some of these little threads.
I am really fond of "Dr. Mike" from what little I've seen so far. He seemed very energetic in his appearance in the pangolin video and it felt telling he was appearing alongside one of the zoo's rarities and lesser-known species. His willingness to dream big, including the reference to koala, have me hopeful the zoo is on the cusp of revitalization. I respect Dr. Strahl a lot and I understand the values of his approach in later years as zoo director, but it is refreshing to see someone who seems willing to take the big swings that have felt absent for a while.
I look forward immensely to the new master plan and comparing it with what we saw so many years ago.
If this effort is successful, maybe the south side of the bulding could be developed as well in the future.
Definitely agree with @Tapir Master about keeping the Olga statue.
I know he's a big fan of sea lions as mentioned in the article you posted:
Anyway once all that little piddly stuff is done, we can get serious about things like bringing back ibex
I am really fond of "Dr. Mike" from what little I've seen so far. He seemed very energetic in his appearance in the pangolin video and it felt telling he was appearing alongside one of the zoo's rarities and lesser-known species. His willingness to dream big, including the reference to koala, have me hopeful the zoo is on the cusp of revitalization. I respect Dr. Strahl a lot and I understand the values of his approach in later years as zoo director, but it is refreshing to see someone who seems willing to take the big swings that have felt absent for a while.
I look forward immensely to the new master plan and comparing it with what we saw so many years ago.
While this is old news for zoochat, it is still incredibly exciting to consider. Very few animals are as charismatic and entertaining for vistiors as monkeys and apes, and while offering them outdoor access alone is great from a welfare perspective, putting the spotlight on these animals with new care and attention and new viewing opportunities is going to draw a lot of attention on the zoo and let these animals be the star attractions they should be. The little moments he discusses families having by the glass - we're going to see so many of those after this renovation. I have no doubt tons of visitors will be delighted to see gorillas and orangutans in naturalistic outdoor habitats in a way they would not be inside the building, but I am also extremely excited to imagine the South American monkeys outdoors as well - I look forward to finding out which species will be chosen for that role. New primate species indoors will also really refresh the building itself. I would personally love to see mandrill make a return as their large size and bright colors make them an attractive option for the kind of viewing this exhibit offers. I wonder most what kind of species could be added to the sparse Tropic World Asia to offset the orangutans moving outside though?
If this effort is successful, maybe the south side of the bulding could be developed as well in the future.
I suspect we won't see a lot of change here but I think it might be a good idea to do some retheming of this exhibit. I've noticed some zoochatters still think this is the same building constructed in the sixties which speaks volumes about it.
It's not an exhibit spotlighted here often as good or bad, but Pinniped Point has always felt a a little bit aged to me. The artificiality of the beaches feels as obvious to me as far more often commented Tropic World, and a lot of the viewing areas (almost all through glass or rope) feel lackluster as well. It's wonderful that they can offer the seals and sea lions a ton of space and I appreciate that aspect of it, but it does feel like it could be a strong renovation opportunity. With the addition of a returning species like walrus (extremely implausible!) or fur seal, or a new species of pinniped, I think it could be a smart renovation project, especially if they integrate more underwater viewing opportunities.
Definitely agree with @Tapir Master about keeping the Olga statue.
I know he's a big fan of sea lions as mentioned in the article you posted:
Makes you think what he might want to do to that area...
On one hand, this would be a smart and necessary change as these exhibits are anitquated and in need of it... and it would be nice to see ostrich and nile hippos back at the zoo. It would be great to potentially see some new antelope species or gazelle. Underwater viewing for hippos is sure to be a hit. On the other hand, I have some hard concerns about losing the animals that call the other end of Pachyderm House home and the zoo has a long history with addax and I like the horses, too. Given the choice I'd rather see hoofstock row go but I hope there is room for these species at the zoo anyway. I think it would be smart to integrate lion as well. This has the potential to be a smart renovation project but more than any other, I want to wait and see details.
Brookfield needs elephants. I don't have any doubt in my mind they need to return to the zoo. I personally think Denver Zoo's Elephant Passage would be a great model to follow, re-adapted for African species and allowing rotation of African elephants and Black rhinoceros. The zoo has enough space in need of redevelopment to pull this off to success, and allows the hoofstock row developments above to be more focused. Would it be possible to rotate hippos with the other two or are their needs too specialized? Denver had some pretty massive pools for the rhinos, tapirs and elephants at Elephant Passage.
Assuming the macaw exhibits aren't too lazy and barebones I think it will be great to see more of such beautiful animals on display, hopefully multiple species in multiple areas. The prairie dog exhibit is a really smart idea and I'd love to see it integrated near Great Bear Wilderness. I think koalas would be a fun addition to the zoo, they are such a charismatic species for casual visitors, but even if they don't arrive, I'm okay -- but the fact it's a point of conversation alone is, imo, a really good show of the kind of ambition I'm happy to see right now.
Anyway once all that little piddly stuff is done, we can get serious about things like bringing back ibex
I couldn't disagree more. Over the least few years Brookfield has been focusing on smaller and lesser known species. This is great, they're keeping animals that most zoos ignore and focusing on smaller animals rather then megafauna has really allowed them to significantly up their species count - Brookfield has a jam-packed with animals feel that most zoos today cannot replicate.
Elephants would take out a significant portion of the zoo and very little, and also fundamentally shift this new, great focus. I am really hoping Brookfield does not go back into elephants.
Why not have both? Tierpark Berlin's bringing back elephants while also introducing a whole slew of smaller species, including cape cobras, grass mice, stuff like that.
Because Brookfield doesn't have room for both. They'd have to go for one or the other, and I think no elephants is the better way to go.
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You are entitled to that opinion, but I think you are see a mutual exclusivity that I do not see.
There is no reason to assume the presence of megafauna alone will reduce smaller animals at the zoo unless we argue about construction location. Gorillas, orangutans, dolphins, sea lions, rhinos, hippps and zebra are also megafauna and clearly will be soaking up millions of dollars in funding either way. The loss of a small species focus is as much implied by those choices as by elephants. reat Bear Wilderness and Wild Encounters brought a stunning two new species to the zoo total despite millions in construction cost. The pangolin, slow loris, ocelot, coati, sea turtle and upcoming tree kangaroo additions have all been completely separate from major construction and took over existing spaces in older exhibits. I don't see them as competing.
You could argue knocking down the notoriously unpopular Pachyderm House will lead to a loss of species (tapir, pygmy hippo, possibly capybara, anteater; tortoises can be moved easily) but that building is already doomed in the discussed plans, separate from if elephants replace it. I think all of those species could be accomodated with renovations to southern Tropic World personally.
Now, if BZ came out and said it's Australia House or elephants, I would be furious, but as far as I'm concerned elephants can be accomodated without a long-term species loss. The zoo has a lot of space and is more species-rich in other parts of the zoo than the huge African yards.
In addition to all of those points, elephants are a huge superstar draw for visitors but more importantly a draw that isn't replicated at nearby Lincoln Park Zoo which has been outdoing Brookfield for almost a decade now. Standing out from Lincoln Park is critical after a decade of Lincoln Park recieving new project funding while Brookfield has struggled. Very few animals could create that kind of boost in attendance and sales as elephants and those dollars no doubt sill be funneled to new exhibits and less popular species even with the obvious expense.
I compared with Elephant Passage and @StoppableSan brought up Berlin -- both exhibits included other animals as well. Like in in-situ conservation, elephants act as a keystone species.
I don't dissmiss your concern but I absolutely believe we can achieve this without threatening the species count. I still see room for both.
Insert Big Lebowski line here.
(Honestly, agree to disagree on this one? I think it's possible, something like how Habitat Africa has giraffes along with klipspringer, dwarf mongoose, free-flying birds, various savanna reptiles, etc. Basically a clone of that but for elephants is something I personally think is in Brookfield's wheelhouse.)
I agree that megafauna and smaller species are not mutually exclusive in all cases. But I do think at Brookfield they are. Elephants take up far more room than just about any other animal species, and Brookfield simply does not have the space for an elephant complex without taking out the Australia Building or the Kopje or something like that.
May I ask who was the one that said this? Was it a representative from the zoo or a higher up? I really am shocked they are still planning to go through with building a new elephant complex after all this time. I'm totally all for it though and the prospect is extremely exciting. I disagree with the idea that Brookfield "needs" elephants, which they don't, but they would definitely make the zoo feel more complete overall. I do wonder how they plan to source new animals, but this project would be at least several years down the line so things could definitely change by then.
This simply isn't true. If the zoo were to just utilize the land taken up by the existing pachyderm house and the two empty plots directly east of the building (where the nature stage is), that's over five acres to build a modern elephant complex. There's no reason why some smaller mammals and herps can't be included in a hypothetical elephant barn in the same vain as the kopje house.
In an ideal world, Brookfield can still expand their collection of smaller oddities while also adding in a few more megafauna like elephants and hippos - which are really the only two major ones that are missing. With the recent announcement of the tree kangaroo arriving this week, i'm optimistic this could be the case.
Zooplantman
Well-Known Member
Of course a northern zoo needs a sizable indoor holding/exhibit for elephants in addition to acres outdoors.
But then again, isn't Brookfield over 200 acres????
Technically yes, but that number is pretty misleading. Half of that is taken up by the parking lots and back-of-house areas. The core zoo is only a little over 100 acres, which is obviously still very sizable. The plot of land I mentioned still is more than enough room for an enormous elephant house alongside at least 2.5-3 acres worth of outdoor space.
Zooplantman
Well-Known Member
Brookfield is about twice the acreage of Dallas and larger than Nashville, ... there is room for elephants if there is reason for elephants
Thinking about the future with existing species, I'm wondering within the future we could see the Wild Horses, Bactrian Camels, Capybara, and Tapir move to the other side of the zoo in areas like the Old Bear Grottos and path between the Fragile Kingdoms and Wild Encounters, has felt like that's slowly becoming an area with some focus on South America and Asia, maybe even moving the Lions to the Habitat Africa area and moving a Jaguar or something into their current exhibit
@Zooplantman has a good point. If I'm being realistic, there's more than enough space to house elephants at other locations and frankly not enough individuals to fill those spots. However, I have a soft spot for Brookfield in that they have been determined to bring elephants back to the state of Illinois let alone the Chicago area. Do we need more elephant holding, no. And there's not even enough "bachelors" which seems to be the go to, either. But I fully support Brookfield if they do.
So to address elephants, this may be a bit of a PR quagmire but since Kruger seems overflowing with elephants, why not just get a few ala. with that Wichita, Dallas, and Omaha did with the Swazi elephants?
I know this is the definition of easier said than done but so are a lot of things.
I know this is the definition of easier said than done but so are a lot of things.
Whether it's the old grottos or filling up the ground floor of the Tropic World, I have huge doubts they will simply kick out the only tapirs they have once the Pachyderm House goes. Especially not after a successful birth this year.
But we shall see. Having a balance of more oddities and a few new megafauna isn't too impossible for the far future.
But we shall see. Having a balance of more oddities and a few new megafauna isn't too impossible for the far future.
I think a lot of people miss out on how massive the land Pachyderm House sits on truly is. It's a huge complex and even the indoor area which is too small for the large animals are still big for a human and part of a truly massive indoor space overall without the outdoor areas. Once all of the existing building is sadly but necessarily torn down and the existing barriers are removed, there will be a ton of land left over that can be developed, with further potential non-exhibit space to the west and south of the existing space. Plenty to rotate elephants and rhinoceros. I really think Denver's exhibit is a fantastic model, and while it is larger, it includes an amphitheater and guest amenities that Brookfield wouldn't need to construct here.
I think as mentioned below, all of the species currently residing at Pachyderm House could be moved elsewhere safely.
I agree that I think the zoo will find a way to bring back or keep tapirs since they have been such a staple for so long here.
I think it would be a good decision to fill one outdoor side of Tropic World outdoors with primates and the other outdoor side could be home to the former and current terrestrial inhabitants such as tapir, anteater, otters, and capybara, and possibly pygmy hippo, none of which have the same space demands as elephants and rhinos or the same enrichment demands as primates. The animals could then rotate inside and outside the exhibit without the compromised welfare of living indoors or on concrete. Three of these five species are also South American and would fit the biogeography of this area of the zoo.
If biogeography is a serious concern, the otters could remain inside (although BZ needs an outdoor otter exhibit somewhere...) and I think there's sufficient space for a new pygmy hippo exhibit by the Forest, although it is a hard sell especially if underwater Nile Hippo viewing is on the agenda.