Just my view but if Taronga are serious about breeding Indian rhinos here they have a real chance to house one imported pair, having one pair in the region is getting back to having one leg only in the door like Auckland were doing with its elephants. There are animals available in Europe where they can't find any more holders and have as far as I am still aware have just about halted breeding. The exhibit is sitting there waiting for them and at no cost to the tax payer.
Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022
- Thread starter Amberangel112
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Just an edit here that it’s actually Mali, who’s due in December 2022 (not Num Oi). Num Oi is due in January 2023 - though with gestation in this species being so variable, it’s entirely possible Mali could run overdue as Dokkoon has in the past and deliver in January also.
As mentioned in the article, keepers are hopeful the cows will deliver female calves. Males seem to run high in Luk Chai’s paternal line (Gung sired 3.1 calves via natural mating) so my guess is the upcoming of cohort of calves will consist of 2.1 calves. I’m predicting Dokkoon (male), Mali (male) and Num Oi (female).
I was told Mali was due last (but this was earlier this year so more precise birthdates may have been determined).
I think we'll see 2.1 calves born too: Dokkoon (male), Num Oi (male) and Mali (female).
Although fingers crossed of course that Num Oi delivers a female.
From the perspective of the breeding programme, if any of them are to have a bull calf, it’d be best if it was Mali. Since cows must be bred before reaching their early 20’s, it’s preferable to slow the intergenerational gaps (this gap will only be 12 years).
If she has a female calf however - it will highlight the importance of securing Putra Mas, who will be needed to sire a calf to this female a decade from now. It would also be exciting to potentially see a four generation matriline - with Dokkoon still only aged around 40 years by that time.
I assume with births being a novel concept to the Melbourne herd when the first calves were born, the keepers felt they could do a better job of overseeing the birth - not to mention there wasn’t room to have all the cows together. With the elephants being in free contact, there was the ability to do that.
The article I linked previously referenced the role of aunties at Dublin Zoo in nudging the mother aside immediately following the birth, so she didn’t trample the calf. I’ve seen keepers perform a similar role by either commanding the mother to lift her leg up, restraining her via chains or pulling the calf to safety as the mother blunders about.
Melbourne’s herd now have the combined experience with births to oversee this process themselves - with this experience passed down to Mali and generations to come. It’s a by-product of the multigenerational herd living and something to be celebrated with regards to how far husbandry of this species has improved in the region.
Swanson02
Well-Known Member
I hope for female calves too, 3 female calves would be a dream. Personally, my gut feeling is Dokkoon (female), Mali (male), and Num Oi (female) for 1.2 calves.
I also think that we have to prepare ourselves for the dreadful but realistic possibility that the herd may lose a calf or two early days. So far in Australasia, we have had a pretty good record with neonatal deaths (just Willow) but who is to say that our luck lasts. I worry for Mali the most, as she is a first-time mum and will also have the least support. Num Oi and Kulab will be completely occupied by Num Oi's calf. Likewise, we'd like to think Dokoon will support Mali and her new calf but her instinctual priorities will be to put the majority of her attention on her own calf. Mek Kepah is interesting as she is closer to Dokoon than she is to Mali so by habit might be more attentive to Dokoon's calf too.
Quick question what was Mek Kepah like with calves previously? Was she extremely attentive? Or was she indifferent? Or somewhere in between the two?
Additionally, Man Jai will have to spend the next few months with Luk Chai in the pool yard, away from the cows and new calves whilst they are fragile. Man Jai has never experienced a calf before so will be very uneasy and intrigued by them which will almost definitely annoy the cows. The biggest danger he presents to them is in the barn where he may unintentionally step on or knock them over, so may inevitably have to stay with Luk Chai. I wonder if Melbourne has already trialed them staying together?
This is also wonderful news to hear btw
I hope for female calves too, 3 female calves would be a dream. Personally, my gut feeling is Dokkoon (female), Mali (male), and Num Oi (female) for 1.2 calves.
I also think that we have to prepare ourselves for the dreadful but realistic possibility that the herd may lose a calf or two early days. So far in Australasia, we have had a pretty good record with neonatal deaths (just Willow) but who is to say that our luck lasts. I worry for Mali the most, as she is a first-time mum and will also have the least support. Num Oi and Kulab will be completely occupied by Num Oi's calf. Likewise, we'd like to think Dokoon will support Mali and her new calf but her instinctual priorities will be to put the majority of her attention on her own calf. Mek Kepah is interesting as she is closer to Dokoon than she is to Mali so by habit might be more attentive to Dokoon's calf too.
Quick question what was Mek Kepah like with calves previously? Was she extremely attentive? Or was she indifferent? Or somewhere in between the two?
Additionally, Man Jai will have to spend the next few months with Luk Chai in the pool yard, away from the cows and new calves whilst they are fragile. Man Jai has never experienced a calf before so will be very uneasy and intrigued by them which will almost definitely annoy the cows. The biggest danger he presents to them is in the barn where he may unintentionally step on or knock them over, so may inevitably have to stay with Luk Chai. I wonder if Melbourne has already trialed them staying together?
This is also wonderful news to hear btw
It is indeed a reality that there are no guarantees with this species when it comes to giving birth. The mortality rate for the calves of first mothers is around 40% (increased likelihood of stillbirths etc). While Mali is statistically the most likely to suffer a stillbirth, they have also been known to occur in experienced mothers.
Dokkoon’s role in assisting Mali during the birth process will likely be to keep her own calf out of the way. It’s a shame she and Mali aren’t delivering the other way around - though it’ll do Mali no harm to observe the birth process week before undergoing it herself.
Man Jai won’t be allowed anywhere near the calves. While the females have been tolerant of him to date (far more than the normal matriarchal herd would be), they will be highly protective of the calves and there would be a heightened risk of them being injured by the adolescent. He (and Luk Chai) will surely have an opportunity to meet them around the 12-18 month mark when they’re more robust (they may even delay it until they transfer to Werribee).
Mek Kepah had no experience with calves growing up but has demonstrated care for the calves in this herd. All the cows practice alloparenting, but no cow can compare to Num Oi - who has consistently shown the strongest maternal instincts towards calves (both her own and the others).
Mek Kapah has been like a grandma figure to the previous calves. She hasn’t been hands on and attentive like Num Oi and Kulab, but rather laidback a little like Dokkoon although she still likes to guide the calves. There was a story back from when Mali was initially born and although Dokkoon proved a great mother, she actually didn’t ‘guide’ the calf in a sense around the exhibit, but Mek Kapah actually stepped in and did so, keeping the calf away from any potentially dangerous areas.
Melbourne have three paddocks so Man Jai will remain in the pool paddock as usual, but I think we may see Luk Chai in with him there more often, to allow the cows and calves to have run of the other two enclosures.
Man Jai sharing the barn does present some concerns. He’ll have physical contact with the calves through the gates, which might actually be beneficial for him going forward (especially if he becomes a breeding bull one day).
No, I don’t think they’ve trialled keeping Luk Chai and Man Jai together overnight in the bull barn. There’s only one Indoor stall, so they’d have to be kept together overnight and I don’t think that would work out well with two bulls especially since Man Jai’d very rambunctious.
Swanson02
Well-Known Member
What specifically makes Num Oi such a great mum compared to the other cows? Like is she really good at guiding the calves?
Also, do we have a layout of the cow barn? I was just wondering how Man Jai will fit in if he can't have any contact with the calves for 12 months. I guess he will essentially require an entire stall to himself. Also, the cow yard is going to be incredibly crowded with 8 elephants when Man Jai and Luk Chai need to be separated when either enter musth.
I guess one benefit of the high density and resultant high contact with other elephants is that the calves will have a great opportunity to build up their EEHV antibodies early on in life, hopefully preventing any issues later on in their adolescence.
Num Oi is very attentive to her calves and dotes on them. Even prior to the birth of her first calf in 2013, staff described Num Oi as having the strongest maternal instincts - evidenced by her alloparenting and care for Mali and Ongard. She again showed great affection for Man Jai, who proved a positive distraction for Num Oi following the death of her 11 month old calf days prior to Man Jai’s birth.
Dokkoon in contrast has been described by staff as having her head in the clouds. Though a good mother, she’s not as attentive as Num Oi and has received more help from the herd.
I’m hopeful Melbourne’s growing herd will place the calves in good stead for building up antibodies. To date their herd has remained free of EEHV outbreaks and I hope this will continue following their move to Werribee. One day the herd will number in the 20’s and will surely thrive in the new complex.
I’ll try to describe this the best way I can
- so, If your standing looking into the barn through the glass, you can see three medium sized stalls right in front of you. These are used for training ect., and are designed for a single elephant only. Then just to the left of these stalls (out of view from the glass) is a larger stall that’s usually covered with sand for sleeping I guess and it’s about the size of those three medium stalls combined. So the capacity of the barn is about eight elephants at max (which they will of course be breaking once the calves are born).Considering Man Jai requires an extra stall (one of the three medium sized ones) - it’ll be a pain when Num Oi gives birth as Melbourne will have to squeeze the other five elephants into two of the medium sized stalls (unless they chose to put Mek Kapah in with Man Jai, which is probably inadvisable). So I’m really not sure how they’ll do this, but I imagine they’ve done all the planning and forethought on this and have probably came up with something.
Num Oi’s always been the most caring and attentive towards her calves, something Dokkoon and Kulab both didn’t really display as mother’s. She’s also excelled at being an Aunty; she actually helped Kulab a lot with Ongard early on despite being only nine years old and was a great first time mother to Sanook. She was also very doting towards Man Jai, and was definitely Man Jai’s favourite Aunty. Some keepers actually describe Num Oi as almost taking Man Jai as her own at times - keep in mind, Man Jai was born just six days after Num Oi’s first calf, Sanook, died. So fingers crossed she’ll be able to finally raise a calf to adulthood.
@Zoofan15 described Dokkoon perfectly - she always has her head in the clouds. Keepers often describe her as always ‘sitting still and looking pretty’ which sort of sums Dokkoon up even more for you. She’s a decent mother (with the assistance of the herd of course), but I struggle to imagine how she’d do without them. Dokkoon also used to rely on the keepers a lot with both Mali and Man Jai (who’d step in to help the calf stand, feed ect. following the birth) but this won’t be the case this time due to protected contact, so hopefully she’s learned from the past.
In contrast, Kulab was always a hands off mother too, and has been described as a tomboy as such by some keepers. She’s also very food motivated, and sometimes would leave Ongard just to grab a snack elsewhere in the exhibit. Luckily, Num Oi had her back most of the time (and one keeper did mention that this early experience with calves Num Oi had with both Mali and Ongard may have assisted her with finally excelling as a mother once she had calves of her own).
Back to Kulab though; Kulab’s also the closely female to Luk Chai. I think I’ve said it on here before; but if Kulab was allowed to breed, I think she’d definitely had been the first female to conceive, although Dokkoon pretty much did too
.Kulab was also the female that drove Man Jai being kicked out of the herd. None of the other females seemed to really be phased by Man Jai who grew to be incredibly annoying by that time - in the past keepers had separated Ongard very early on, but because of calves being born (not because the herd was kicking him out), so this time they decided to allow it to occur naturally, but the problem was none of the cows really did anything about Man Jai besides Kulab who often became very frustrated and physical with him.
Gung's nickname is actually 'Gigi' which is interesting as Dubbo used to have a female by the same name.
Destination of Perth Zoo’s Elephants
Following Tricia’s death, Perth Zoo have updated their FAQ’s with regards to their elephant phase out which includes an interesting comment.
We will also take our time finding them the perfect forever homes, both from a social structure point of view, but also the very best environment for them. And, a lot of work will go into preparing them for their move. They’ll also initially be accompanied by their current zoo keepers who will travel with them to provide support and help them settle into their new zoo homes.
This comment is interesting as it implies the current expectation is they’ll be sent to different zoos.
Transferring Putra Mas to Werribee Open Range Zoo is the obvious move considering they have the space to accomodate him and the page also notes his genetics are “exceptionally valuable” within the region. Clearly his value to the future of the breeding programme has been recognised, which is good as there’s been cases where such factors have been overlooked (e.g. hippos).
Permai is the unknown as while the FAQ’s also make reference to them being part of the regional herd, the implication is they won’t be going to the same zoo. Since Australia Zoo and Dubbo are known to have refused Burma, we can assume they’d similarly refuse Permai. Similarly, if Werribee won’t accept Permai, they won’t accept Burma either.
The birth of three bull calves from Melbourne/Werribee’s upcoming cohort is about the only thing that could swing the balance in Permai/Burma’s favour at this point; but reading between the lines, it looks like the likely option for these cows is export to the USA - something the zoos are no doubt investigating as we speak.
Following Tricia’s death, Perth Zoo have updated their FAQ’s with regards to their elephant phase out which includes an interesting comment.
We will also take our time finding them the perfect forever homes, both from a social structure point of view, but also the very best environment for them. And, a lot of work will go into preparing them for their move. They’ll also initially be accompanied by their current zoo keepers who will travel with them to provide support and help them settle into their new zoo homes.
This comment is interesting as it implies the current expectation is they’ll be sent to different zoos.
Transferring Putra Mas to Werribee Open Range Zoo is the obvious move considering they have the space to accomodate him and the page also notes his genetics are “exceptionally valuable” within the region. Clearly his value to the future of the breeding programme has been recognised, which is good as there’s been cases where such factors have been overlooked (e.g. hippos).
Permai is the unknown as while the FAQ’s also make reference to them being part of the regional herd, the implication is they won’t be going to the same zoo. Since Australia Zoo and Dubbo are known to have refused Burma, we can assume they’d similarly refuse Permai. Similarly, if Werribee won’t accept Permai, they won’t accept Burma either.
The birth of three bull calves from Melbourne/Werribee’s upcoming cohort is about the only thing that could swing the balance in Permai/Burma’s favour at this point; but reading between the lines, it looks like the likely option for these cows is export to the USA - something the zoos are no doubt investigating as we speak.
I believe if they are intending to ship Permai to the USA at her age is not really a good move. The new Werribee elephant complex being as large and state of the art as its going to be would be a far better move, it will be with another elephant that she knows plus a much shorter shipping distance than to the USA, I really hope this is not the case!
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I agree a transfer to Werribee is in Permai’s best interests. It’ll be a world class facility and the multigenerational herd they’ll hold ticks all the boxes socially for Permai (and Burma).
Ultimately, it’ll be down to Werribee whether they accept these cows. There’s growing recognition of the positive effects herd density has on reducing EEHV cases in captive calves, so that may go in their favour; but Werribee will need to weigh up whether they want to risk acquiring two cows that will need to be held separately if an integration can’t be achieved.
In the event they can’t be integrated, Werribee will be left with two ageing cows that will soon have a range of health issues - and which will ultimately do nothing to attract extra visitation. Acquiring them would be done primarily on humanitarian grounds - something Taronga Zoo and Australia Zoo were unable/unwilling to do.
Regarding Australia zoos change of mind with taking an adult cow, I believe it would of been a big plus for the 4 younger cows and for Permi herself, but looking at the elephant barn from sat maps it does not really look that big, yes there are 2 yards leading out of it but barn wise perhaps not enough room for another adult.
If a bull was ever on the agenda I can't see any sign in the set up with the way it stands at the moment. If it ever happens and highly doubt it another seperate barn and yard would have to be built!
It appears the herd was divided into pairs around the time two went on exhibit and the other two remained off display. This was supposedly due to the other two being apprehensive about being on exhibit; but we’ve since learned about Megawati’s health issues - so I suspect it was a commonsense measure to not have her in contact with the entire herd until they were confident it was under control.
This change in management of the herd (albeit temporary) was a contributing reason to them not accepting Burma - though Auckland have publicly stated there were no concerns on their end and didn’t believe Australia Zoo’s reasoning was justified.
With regards to a bull barn, a separate facility has indeed yet to be built and with no indication it’s on the horizon, I’d assume it’ll be at least five years before a bull is imported.
Birth Announcement!
Dokkoon has delivered a healthy calf at Melbourne Zoo.
Gender to be confirmed.
The calf is the first sired by Luk Chai and the third born to mother, Dokkoon.
This is also the first surviving elephant calf born at Melbourne Zoo in nine years and the first born in the region in four years.
Dokkoon has delivered a healthy calf at Melbourne Zoo.
Gender to be confirmed.
The calf is the first sired by Luk Chai and the third born to mother, Dokkoon.
This is also the first surviving elephant calf born at Melbourne Zoo in nine years and the first born in the region in four years.
Wonderful news! The calf was born at around 1 am this morning with Mali and Mek Kapah present.
This is Dokkoon's third calf and Luk Chai's first.
This is also the first elephant calf in the region in four years, and additionally, this calf is also the first at Melbourne in six years too. This calf is also Melbourne's first naturally conceived calf.
Fingers crossed for a girl.
https://www.southcoastregister.com.au/story/7983981/melbourne-zoo-trumpets-elephants-birth/
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Article on the birth here:
This article also states Num Oi and Mali are both due January 2023.
Melbourne Zoo trumpets elephant's birth
Surrounded by other female members of the zoo's tightly bonded Asian Elephant herd, mother Dokkoon gave birth about 1am on Wednesday.
The gender of the calf is yet to be determined, but the zoo has released images of the new addition.
The calf is the first to be born at Melbourne Zoo through natural conception. First-time dad Luk Chai arrived from Taronga Western Plains Zoo in December 2020.
It is the first of three calves expected in coming months for the herd, with two other elephants nearing the end of their 22-month pregnancies and expected to give birth in early 2023.
This article also states Num Oi and Mali are both due January 2023.
Melbourne Zoo trumpets elephant's birth
Surrounded by other female members of the zoo's tightly bonded Asian Elephant herd, mother Dokkoon gave birth about 1am on Wednesday.
The gender of the calf is yet to be determined, but the zoo has released images of the new addition.
The calf is the first to be born at Melbourne Zoo through natural conception. First-time dad Luk Chai arrived from Taronga Western Plains Zoo in December 2020.
It is the first of three calves expected in coming months for the herd, with two other elephants nearing the end of their 22-month pregnancies and expected to give birth in early 2023.
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