Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

Status
Not open for further replies.
ZCChip said:
So there are three stalls in this barn? And where is Luk Chai?

being from USA I am not familiar on how this zoo’s elephant enclosure is set up. I know the new habitat they are going to will be quite elaborate.
Click to expand...

Luk Chai is in the bull barn which consists of a single stall. The cow barn has three medium sized stalls which are designed to hold a single elephant each. Then there’s a larger stall that is about the size of the three medium stalls combined.

There’s many ways the zoo could work this, but going forward in the short term I imagine it’ll be Dokkoon (and calf), Mali (and calf) and Man Jai taking a medium stall each and the other three cows (Mek Kepah, Kulab and Num Oi) sharing the larger stall.

Once Num Oi’s calf comes, she’ll likely take a medium stall while Dokkoon, Mali and their calves share with Mek Kepah - though all this will depend on the timing of Num Oi’s birth and how the relationships develop within the herd. The alternative would be keeping Num Oi and her calf with Mek Kepah and Kulab in the largest stall.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Luk Chai is in the bull barn which consists of a single stall. The cow barn has three medium sized stalls which are designed to hold a single elephant each. Then there’s a larger stall that is about the size of the three medium stalls combined.

There’s many ways the zoo could work this, but going forward in the short term I imagine it’ll be Dokkoon (and calf), Mali (and calf) and Man Jai taking a medium stall each and the other three cows (Mek Kepah, Kulab and Num Oi) sharing the larger stall.

Once Num Oi’s calf comes, she’ll likely take a medium stall while Dokkoon, Mali and their calves share with Mek Kepah - though all this will depend on the timing of Num Oi’s birth and how the relationships develop within the herd. The alternative would be keeping Num Oi and her calf with Mek Kepah and Kulab in the largest stall.
Click to expand...

Just some additional notes; the medium sized stalls are only designed for a single elephant, so Melbourne will be at the brink of capacity with the birth of these upcoming calves. Once they get bigger, there’ll be even more reason for them to be shifted out to Werribee.

Usually, the cows are in groups of two overnight (Mek Kapah, Dokkoon and Mali); and Num Oi and Kulab. Then of course, Man Jai in one of the medium sized stalls.

I was told the cows will also be given outdoor access overnight to give them additional space. But of course only one group can have outdoor access at once.

The groupings will probably be; Dokkoon (and calf), Mali (and calf) and Mek Kapah in the largest stall. Then Kulab and Num Oi (and calf) in the other two stalls, with Man Jai then in the final one. This setup probably won’t be a changeable one. The groupings will remain the same.
 
Something else I thought was interesting to note in this video re. Mali’s initial reaction to her calf is her protectiveness of her newborn sibling.

Initially, Mali appears fearful/apprehensive of her newborn calf and backs away. As Dokkoon’s newborn approaches, Mali appears to guide her sibling away in a protective gesture.

Watch 0.17 through to 0.27 and it’s quite clear Mali is acting protectively towards her newborn sibling, while Dokkoon cautiously investigates Mali’s newborn.

As evidenced by the second clip (I’d love to know what happened in the interim), Mali is reassured her calf is not a threat and begins bonding with it - but thought it was interesting nonetheless to note the strong protective instinct she already has for Dokkoon’s calf (as you’d expect to see within a cohesive herd). We’ll surely see a lot of alloparenting between the cows as these calves grow.

 
Zorro said:
I believe the next step in the regions elephant program is to pick a place for a Batchelor herd wether that's at Monarto or some other zoo!
Click to expand...

At this point in time, Monarto are the only facility with the space and resources to accomodate elephants - so long term, I’m hopeful they’ll join the breeding programme (ideally as a bachelor facility).

In the meantime, Werribee will have the use of six large paddocks to accomodate their growing herd. The matriarchal herd, Luk Chai and Man Jai will represent up to three groupings (i.e. the young bulls will still need time apart); and Putra Mas a fourth - but that still leaves two paddocks available for rotation and to accomodate a bull or two from this cohort (I can say this with confidence now, knowing there’s at least one female in this cohort).
 
Zoofan15 said:
Something else I thought was interesting to note in this video re. Mali’s initial reaction to her calf is her protectiveness of her newborn sibling.

Initially, Mali appears fearful/apprehensive of her newborn calf and backs away. As Dokkoon’s newborn approaches, Mali appears to guide her sibling away in a protective gesture.

Watch 0.17 through to 0.27 and it’s quite clear Mali is acting protectively towards her newborn sibling, while Dokkoon cautiously investigates Mali’s newborn.

As evidenced by the second clip (I’d love to know what happened in the interim), Mali is reassured her calf is not a threat and begins bonding with it - but thought it was interesting nonetheless to note the strong protective instinct she already has for Dokkoon’s calf (as you’d expect to see within a cohesive herd). We’ll surely see a lot of alloparenting between the cows as these calves grow.

Click to expand...


I interpreted that as normal herd behavior. I remember watching the live cam at Amersfoort then seeing Khine War War kill Indra’s first born. KWW probably felt everybody was in danger hence the killing and as I recall KWW was never a good mother herself, as she had to be encouraged to accept and nurse Indra.

Sadly that was Sammy’s only calf.

Hopefully Mali will be a better mother than her mom has been.
 
ZCChip said:
I interpreted that as normal herd behavior. I remember watching the live cam at Amersfoort then seeing Khine War War kill Indra’s first born. KWW probably felt everybody was in danger hence the killing and as I recall KWW was never a good mother herself, as she had to be encouraged to accept and nurse Indra.

Sadly that was Sammy’s only calf.

Hopefully Mali will be a better mother than her mom has been.
Click to expand...

It’s worth noting that with the Melbourne herd, they’re relatively inexperienced of dealing with births as a herd. Due to space limitations in the barn and the elephant’s inexperience, the staff fulfilled the role of birthing partners to the births that occurred under protected contact.

They’re definitely learning from their experiences. Dokkoon birthed her third calf without issue and with births becoming more regular with the move to Werribee, I’m sure the elephants will build up confidence with how to deal with births/newborns.

Dokkoon’s newborn daughter, while too young to benefit from this experience - will surely have seen several calves born by the time she delivers her own first calf in 12 years or so.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Breeding Plans for Dubbo

I’d expect three births within the Dubbo herd in the next five years:

- Breeding from Anjalee is a priority. I’d expect her to conceive within the next 12 months.

- Breeding from Thong Dee is necessary by 2026 if they want to maintain her viability as a breeding cow. I’d expect her to produce the next calf in conjunction with Anjalee. This will allow them another decade to decide whether to continue breeding with her. Personally, I’m of the belief she’ll be retired after three calves. She’s already well represented through Luk Chai.

- Breeding from Porntip is necessary by 2028. They may opt to bring this forward to align with Anjalee and Thong Dee’s calves. This would avoid the issues that come with two year age gaps between calves in a herd and means Porntip could align with Kanlaya for a fourth calf (which would probably be her final calf).

In conclusion, I’d predict:

2025: Porntip, Thong Dee (then retire), Anjalee
2030: Porntip (then retire), Anjalee, Kanlaya

The new cow/calf facility will likely be up and running by 2025, but the above is likely the maximum breeding we’ll see - bearing in mind the two cows at Taronga will be rejoining the herd within this timeframe.
Click to expand...

Thong Dee's an interesting one. I think the gender of her next calf will mainly influence a decision on whether she's allowed a fourth calf down the line. A female would be needed for succession, so if her next calf is a female, I think it would be a good idea to retire her from breeding (especially due to her increasing representation now at Melbourne through her eldest son, Luk Chai). If her next calf is a male, that may present more of a reason for Thong Dee being allowed to have a fourth calf (and hopefully a girl). Whilst we don't really want another bull from Thong Dee, keep in mind many facilities in the US would greatly appreciate the arrival of a young completely unrelated bull into their population.

That brings me to Sabai who probably won't be needed within our regional breeding program, ever. The best choice for him is to be sent to a facility in the US where he can breed over there. The US currently has a lot of elderly founders who'll pass within the next decade, so by that time, Sabai (as an unrelated 'founder' in essence over there) will be in high demand. I don't see him being retained in Australia as a surplus male, especially as the region dosen't have a designated bachelor facility in the time being, and likely won't still within five years time when Sabai will need to be moved to make space.

I think the sex of Porntip's next calf will also influence the decision on whether she'll breed again too. Another female will present a strong argument not to breed her again. She'll have two daughters (enough for succession). We don't want to get to a point where Porntip may have three daughters, which won't be a terrible thing, but is certainly inadvisable for a facility like Dubbo who have spatial limitations. More so, I think Pathi Harn has a big influence on Porntip's breeding future. If Pathi Harn is chosen to father the next cohort of calves to Thong Dee and Anjalee; Dubbo may not need to breed from Porntip more than a fourth time, as Porntip will have an increasing representation much like Thong Dee through Luk Chai currently at Melbourne.

There's also Pak Boon to consider, who may or may not still be apart of the breeding program. If she is still apart of the breeding program, it'd probably be important to AI her soon. She could then give birth in 2025, soon after her arrival to Dubbo, in conjunction with calves from Thong Dee and Anjalee.

So here's what I see occurring at Dubbo down the line:

2025 - calves from: Anjalee, Thong Dee, Pak Boon*
2029 - calves from: Porntip and Kanlaya

*if she's still apart of the breeding program

I don't think we can predict any further than the next calves for each of the above females, as the sex of the calves will really determine Thong Dee's and Porntip's breeding future. Only Pak Boon, Anjalee and Kanlaya will most likely breed again following these calves.
 
Jambo said:
Thong Dee's an interesting one. I think the gender of her next calf will mainly influence a decision on whether she's allowed a fourth calf down the line. A female would be needed for succession, so if her next calf is a female, I think it would be a good idea to retire her from breeding (especially due to her increasing representation now at Melbourne through her eldest son, Luk Chai). If her next calf is a male, that may present more of a reason for Thong Dee being allowed to have a fourth calf (and hopefully a girl). Whilst we don't really want another bull from Thong Dee, keep in mind many facilities in the US would greatly appreciate the arrival of a young completely unrelated bull into their population.

That brings me to Sabai who probably won't be needed within our regional breeding program, ever. The best choice for him is to be sent to a facility in the US where he can breed over there. The US currently has a lot of elderly founders who'll pass within the next decade, so by that time, Sabai (as an unrelated 'founder' in essence over there) will be in high demand. I don't see him being retained in Australia as a surplus male, especially as the region dosen't have a designated bachelor facility in the time being, and likely won't still within five years time when Sabai will need to be moved to make space.

I think the sex of Porntip's next calf will also influence the decision on whether she'll breed again too. Another female will present a strong argument not to breed her again. She'll have two daughters (enough for succession). We don't want to get to a point where Porntip may have three daughters, which won't be a terrible thing, but is certainly inadvisable for a facility like Dubbo who have spatial limitations. More so, I think Pathi Harn has a big influence on Porntip's breeding future. If Pathi Harn is chosen to father the next cohort of calves to Thong Dee and Anjalee; Dubbo may not need to breed from Porntip more than a fourth time, as Porntip will have an increasing representation much like Thong Dee through Luk Chai currently at Melbourne.

There's also Pak Boon to consider, who may or may not still be apart of the breeding program. If she is still apart of the breeding program, it'd probably be important to AI her soon. She could then give birth in 2025, soon after her arrival to Dubbo, in conjunction with calves from Thong Dee and Anjalee.

So here's what I see occurring at Dubbo down the line:

2025 - calves from: Anjalee, Thong Dee, Pak Boon*
2029 - calves from: Porntip and Kanlaya

*if she's still apart of the breeding program

I don't think we can predict any further than the next calves for each of the above females, as the sex of the calves will really determine Thong Dee's and Porntip's breeding future. Only Pak Boon, Anjalee and Kanlaya will most likely breed again following these calves.
Click to expand...

Personally, I don’t think it’s particularly important that Thong Dee produces a daughter to the extent of breeding her a fourth time if her third calf is a bull.

Even with the expansion, the capacity of the elephant complex at Taronga Western Plains Zoo will be limited and if Pak Boon is indeed to remain part of the breeding programme - that would give them four viable founder cows (Porntip, Pak Boon, Thong Dee and Anjalee). There’s not capacity to sustain four matrilineal lines over successive generations at Dubbo - so if they’re gonna cull one from succession, it should be Thong Dee - who is well represented via her eldest son.

The reason Taronga carried out AI with Porntip in 2008 was as matriarch, they felt it was important she produced a calf sooner rather than later. The same logic could be argued here - especially with a new elephant (Anjalee) in the herd; and Pak Boon and Tang Mo returning within the next few years. Therefore I wouldn’t be surprised if Porntip conceived alongside Thong Dee and Anjalee to produce a cohort of same aged calves.

Exporting to the US would be an ideal way to relieve the pressure surplus bulls will place on Werribee and Dubbo. It’s not an option either facility are relying on - but it would be extremely helpful and allow for more regular breeding. Man Jai is an obvious candidate for export - even more so when Pathi Harn begins to sire calves at Dubbo.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Even with the expansion, the capacity of the elephant complex at Taronga Western Plains Zoo will be limited and if Pak Boon is indeed to remain part of the breeding programme - that would give them four viable founder cows (Porntip, Pak Boon, Thong Dee and Anjalee). There’s not capacity to sustain four matrilineal lines over successive generations at Dubbo - so if they’re gonna cull one from succession, it should be Thong Dee - who is well represented via her eldest son.
Click to expand...

Fair point.

I think down the line another breeding facility may be required (especially if Dubbo is limited space wise). Monarto seems the best choice with the most space for a large breeding complex, but then again, there's been talks of housing a bachelor group there (which is something the region will need more importantly).

Personally though, i'm more in favour of another facility holding a bachelor group. A facility that's big enough for elephants, yet not really big enough for a breeding group, like Australia zoo (which I acknowledge won't happen due to them holding Sumatrans). Maybe a smaller facility like Altina would be able to accomodate something like this; a decent sized bachelor complex would only require 5-10 acres of space.
 
Jambo said:
Fair point.

I think down the line another breeding facility may be required (especially if Dubbo is limited space wise). Monarto seems the best choice with the most space for a large breeding complex, but then again, there's been talks of housing a bachelor group there (which is something the region will need more importantly).

Personally though, i'm more in favour of another facility holding a bachelor group. A facility that's big enough for elephants, yet not really big enough for a breeding group, like Australia zoo (which I acknowledge won't happen due to them holding Sumatrans). Maybe a smaller facility like Altina would be able to accomodate something like this; a decent sized bachelor complex would only require 5-10 acres of space.
Click to expand...

Since the costs of housing elephants would be prohibitive for a small zoo, Monarto represents the best option of another breeding facility - which they could operate in conjunction to holding bachelor bulls.

However my concern here - where would all Monarto’s surplus bulls go? The bachelor facility at Monarto would be useful in accomodating surplus bulls from Werribee and Dubbo (that aren’t exported); but with Monarto breeding as well - we’ll soon be back to square one.

I think what the region really needs to do is look at a long term solution to breeding surplus bulls. Sex selection can be done via AI in dairy cattle, but natural breeding is preferable due to the costs of AI - so something like castration may be a better option. This has previously been carried out at facilities in the US producing large numbers of calves and may contribute to forming cohesive bachelor herds.
 
Last edited:
Melbourne Zoo - Naming Update

Dokkoon's calf has been named Aiyara:

0.1 Aiyara (16/11/2022) Luk Chai x Dokkoon

The name means ‘elephant’ - a symbol of loyalty, friendliness, good fortune and happiness.

Voting are open for Mali's male calf:

1.0 Unnamed (25/11/2022) Luk Chai x Mali

- Mai Pai (bamboo)
- Roi Yim (cheers and smile)
- Chaiyo (meaning smile).
 
Last edited:
Zoofan15 said:
Melbourne Zoo - Naming Update

Dokkoon's calf has been named Aiyara:

0.1 Aiyara (16/11/2022) Luk Chai x Dokkoon

The name means ‘elephant’ - a symbol of loyalty, friendliness, good fortune and happiness.

Voting are open for Mali's male calf:

1.0 Unnamed (26/11/2022) Luk Chai x Mali

- Mai Pai (bamboo)
- Roi Yim (cheers and smile)
- Chaiyo (meaning smile).
Click to expand...

My vote is for Roi Yim here. It's a nice name and the best of the lot, but I would've preferably liked to see it used for Num Oi's calf due to the little pronunciation link it has with Num Oi.

Chaiyo is just too similar to Luk Chai, and Mai Pai is very similar to Man Jai.
 
Last edited:
Jambo said:
Mali's calf was born on the 25/11/2022. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks - have edited. Had it in my head they were born 10 days apart for some reason - probably because it was announced on the 26th.

It’s very much been a case of second baby syndrome in terms of media coverage. Mali’s calf hasn’t got even a fraction of the coverage Dokkoon’s got. Even Zoos Victoria haven’t bothered to post a news article about the calf on their website - yet found the time to post something trivial in the news section about their Dingo.

I appreciate Dokkoon’s calf was special as the first surviving calf at Melbourne in nine years - but I would have expected Zoos Victoria to be posting updates regularly on socials during this exciting time. Unless it’s all being saved for the next instalment of MegaZoo.
 
Mali’s calf has been named Roi-Yim:

1.0 Roi-Yim (25/11/2022) Luk Chai x Mali

The name means ‘smile’ in Thai. It’s a great name and easily the best of the three - even if we can all agree it would have been better suited to Num Oi’s calf.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Mali’s calf has been named Roi-Yim:

1.0 Roi-Yim (25/11/2022) Luk Chai x Mali

The name means ‘smile’ in Thai. It’s a great name and easily the best of the three - even if we can all agree it would have been better suited to Num Oi’s calf.
Click to expand...

I don't like it unfortunately :( sounds way too feminine for an adult bull elephant and will easily lead to confusion with Num Ois eventual calf. Might just call him 'Roi'. Let's hope they don't add to the confusion by naming Num Ois calf something like 'Kahli'
 
Swanson02 said:
I don't like it unfortunately :( sounds way too feminine for an adult bull elephant and will easily lead to confusion with Num Ois eventual calf. Might just call him 'Roi'. Let's hope they don't add to the confusion by naming Num Ois calf something like 'Kahli'
Click to expand...

Personally, I’d be have been in favour of naming the calves with their mother’s initial. It’s a common practice used by Melbourne and other zoos to keep track of matrilines and with the breeding success we’ll surely see continued at Werribee, there’s now a cause to do so.

Obviously we already have Dokkoon, mother of Mali - so this could have been something implemented for the offspring of first generation cows - with Mali and Aiyara’s calves having M and A names for example. This would still allow them some creative licence on future daughters of Dokkoon and Num Oi - which wouldn’t be restricted to this convention.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Personally, I’d be have been in favour of naming the calves with their mother’s initial. It’s a common practice used by Melbourne and other zoos to keep track of matrilines and with the breeding success we’ll surely see continued at Werribee, there’s now a cause to do so.

Obviously we already have Dokkoon, mother of Mali - so this could have been something implemented for the offspring of first generation cows - with Mali and Aiyara’s calves having M and A names for example. This would still allow them some creative licence on future daughters of Dokkoon and Num Oi - which wouldn’t be restricted to this convention.
Click to expand...

Melbourne previously attempted to name siblings with the same initial; eg. Mali and Man Jai. This has obviously been thrown out the window as Melbourne’s named Dokkoon’s latest daughter ‘Aiyara’.

Melbourne’s only ever used that naming convention with great apes unfortunately; and the fact that there’s very limited Thai names available probably stops them from using the mother’s initial convention. Think of the fact that Melbourne only have three founders; and thus, will only ever have elephants with three initials apart of their herd. With the herd set to reach its 20’s at Werribee, it would be hard to imagine ten elephants all with Thai ‘D’ names. They’d start sounding too similar.

Whilst I do like Roi Yim as a name in general, it’s too feminine sounding for a male. I guess we’re just going to have to get used to it unfortunately. Hopefully they can add a more suitable name into the mix for Num Oi’s calf.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top