Split from this thread: Exotic Mammals in Australian Zoos
Lol Sydney zoo are referring to the trio as Bengal tigers
Lol Sydney zoo are referring to the trio as Bengal tigers
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Generic mammals in zoos
- Thread starter steveroberts
- Start date
Lol Sydney zoo are referring to the trio as Bengal tigers
Australia Zoo also referred to them as Bengal tigers: Bengal Tiger - Australia Zoo
Interestingly, they’re closer to being Sumatran tigers than Bengal tigers since their father (Lari) was a purebred Sumatran tiger and their mother was a generic tiger. Therefore they’re a minimum of 50% Sumatran depending on what subspecies their mother was a mix of.
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@Zoofan15
Thanks for info man. Both zoos should just call them Tigers then, and cut-out the subspecies crossing from here on out, not that have any personal disdain for the individual Tigers themselves they seem beautiful, but it's the 21st century and Tiger subspecies are all endangered enough as it is. Can get behind some of the other subspecies crossing like Chimpanzees for example, but generic Tigers means less room available for Sumatran tigers or other subspecies that can play part in the international captive breeding programs.
Thanks for info man. Both zoos should just call them Tigers then, and cut-out the subspecies crossing from here on out, not that have any personal disdain for the individual Tigers themselves they seem beautiful, but it's the 21st century and Tiger subspecies are all endangered enough as it is. Can get behind some of the other subspecies crossing like Chimpanzees for example, but generic Tigers means less room available for Sumatran tigers or other subspecies that can play part in the international captive breeding programs.
I agree. There’s no harm in listing them as Tiger (Panthera tigris) - same way we accept seeing generic Giraffe (Giraffa camelopardalis) in our zoos.
In researching the history of zoos in the region, it’s common to find zoos listing their Asian elephants as Indian elephants. Today, even those who hold just Indian elephants label them as Asian elephants - presumably to align with zoos who hold a mixture of Indian and Sri Lankan elephants etc.
Given many of the Indian Elephants in the region were sourced from Thailand or Malaysia, calling them Asian Elephants, I suppose, cuts down on any confusion that may cause - as well as making the species name fit more generically within an Asian Rainforest precinct featuring many Indonesian species.
Whether or not that's a good thing, I don't know. Specificity is good, but I agree that I don't see why there is a need to use 'Bengal' as substitute for generic/hybrid. The generic tigers at the National Zoo, for instance, are simply labelled as Tiger (Panthera tigris) and their purebred Sumatran Tigers labelled accordingly as Sumatran Tigers.
I think my main objection is that they’re misleading the public by labelling them as Bengal tigers. The public have enough problems trying to understand that white tigers aren’t an endangered species.
I similarly dislike Indian antelope labelled as Blackbuck and exhibited in an African savannah exhibit. The majority of visitors would be amazed to learn they’re not native to Africa. Label them Blackbuck by all means (it’s a widely used name), but don’t put them in an African savannah exhibit.
@Abbey @Patrick Keegan @Zoofan15
Agree with you Abbey & ZooFan about with Asian Elephants, and our region's had a big history with Elephants from Thailand and Malaysia like you pointed out Abbey (think India and Burma were more common places of import over a century ago along with Thailand (then Siam). I agree 100% with National Zoo's decision of labelling generics as Tiger (Panthera tigris) and the purebred Sumatran tigers as Sumatrans. Apparently the name Mainland Asian Tigers or Asian Mainland Tigers is being considered for the {Panthera tigris tigris} subspecies with mitochondrial dna showing they're pretty much identical..though have personally kind of enjoyed the variety of subspecies we've had up until the present (albeit sad just how endangered they all are) with the Bengal, Siberian, South China/Southern Chinese, Malayan (since '04) and Indochinese . The same study grouped extinct Balinese & Javan with Sumatran as one subspecies and extinct Caspian with the mainland subspecies (or 'subpopulations/clades' as they seem to be referred to now).
Agree with you Abbey & ZooFan about with Asian Elephants, and our region's had a big history with Elephants from Thailand and Malaysia like you pointed out Abbey (think India and Burma were more common places of import over a century ago along with Thailand (then Siam). I agree 100% with National Zoo's decision of labelling generics as Tiger (Panthera tigris) and the purebred Sumatran tigers as Sumatrans. Apparently the name Mainland Asian Tigers or Asian Mainland Tigers is being considered for the {Panthera tigris tigris} subspecies with mitochondrial dna showing they're pretty much identical..though have personally kind of enjoyed the variety of subspecies we've had up until the present (albeit sad just how endangered they all are) with the Bengal, Siberian, South China/Southern Chinese, Malayan (since '04) and Indochinese . The same study grouped extinct Balinese & Javan with Sumatran as one subspecies and extinct Caspian with the mainland subspecies (or 'subpopulations/clades' as they seem to be referred to now).
@Zoofan15 100%, who bets if we were to go out and ask people what the most endangered Tiger is or even if we lied and said White tigers were a 'species' and most endangered a lot of people would agree or possibly suggest it themselves (though am certainly no advocate for deliberately misleading unsuspecting people even merely for a social experiment, truth always is personal belief and know its shared by 99.99999% of us, just curious what might the feedback be). Remember hearing somewhere that apparently a lot of people though White Tigers and Siberian Tigers were one and the same (if is true suspect the cold climate stereotype with Polar Bears & Arctic Foxes etc) even though only Bengal/Indian Tiger population has had white mutation in recent recorded times.
@Zoofan15 Agree too completely about Blackbuck, share sane frustration seeing them being exhibited in African focused precincts/areas of zoos, it happens so much and personally find really irritating. There are countless awesome African hoofstock species (not as much as the past but still a few) to have in your African themed area while still being able to display Blackbuck say within close proximity to the Asian focused area. Funny thing is Nile Lechwe look so similar to Blackbuck and are both actually African and endangered.
I had read a few years ago that the Caspian and Siberian tigers are an identical dna match, also that it was being considered to introduce some Siberian tigers into the former range of the Caspian tiger native range.
A lot of our region’s elephants in the early to mid 20th Century came from India with India being ruled by the British until 1947. Technically, the Indian elephant subspecies encompasses those from Thailand, Malaysia etc. so we could use it for elephants that aren’t Sumatran or Sri Lankan elephants.
Its a cheap and easy way to make a African savanna look more real having a stand-in antelope species even if they come from a different continent
I too have heard this, but personally aren’t a fan of the Mainland/Sunda tiger classification. Breeding Malayan tigers with Siberian tigers would undo decades of preserving the latter as a pure subspecies, only for the resulting offspring to be declared hybrids once the subspecies are all reclassified a decade or two from now.
Its a cheap and easy way to make a African savanna look more real having a stand-in antelope species even if they come from a different continent
Now the Bovid IRA is in place there’s no excuse for zoos not to import species on the live import list to compose a geographically accurate (and genetically diverse) savannah.
True but lets see if they are willing to take to harder option. I seem to remember Werribee at one time having asian water buffalo as a stand in for African Cape buffalo on their African savanna, another easy and cheap option, lets wait and see
@Zoofan15 Agree, not a fan of crossing Siberian with Malayan like you said or any of the other crossovers (can sort of accept Bengal/Siberian {kind-of accept} but still think Siberians should be preserved just as Siberians just like Malayan etc, get the feeling South China Tigers are on their last stretch, not wishing to be pessimist about it just heard all captive SC Tigers are now very inbred, although think saw comments on a thread somewhere on here that there's a selective breeding program that although has to breed individuals who are somehow related if all the population is inbred, there can be a monitored program where after several generations there is more genetic diversity again, so if true here's hoping that gets used).
@Zorro Lol yeah 'watch this space' ie with our zoos and plans upcoming with potential bovid imports, will be so disappointed if they don't utilise the greenlight opportunity like ZooFan pointed out. Remember being so impressed seeing African Forest Buffalo at Western Plains in '98 (now they're all gone and there is a golden opportunity for Werribee, Monarto, WP, Altina, Orana etc to import African Cape Buffalo like you mentioned.
@Zorro Lol yeah 'watch this space' ie with our zoos and plans upcoming with potential bovid imports, will be so disappointed if they don't utilise the greenlight opportunity like ZooFan pointed out. Remember being so impressed seeing African Forest Buffalo at Western Plains in '98 (now they're all gone and there is a golden opportunity for Werribee, Monarto, WP, Altina, Orana etc to import African Cape Buffalo like you mentioned.
@steveroberts I would be very surprised if they ever did import African buffalo
Werribee had Melbourne (and Dubbo) born stock going back. Melbourne initially intended to create a second regional breeding group with a male from Dubbo in the late 90's but the male died soon after, and Melbourne was left with an all female group of which were later sent to Werribee as apart of the early 2000's large ungulate phase out. It would've made sense to import a male from Dubbo from there too; I believe they had one but i'm not sure off the top of my head.
I imagine Werribee might consider them again. They're quite a popular species (apart of the African big 5) and do well in mixed species habitats.
I believe you might be referring to the smaller Congo dwarf buffalo a smaller subspecies of the larger Cape buffalo, As much as I would like to see either of them here I will believe it when I see it
Same here, not holding my breath. Think its the remaining American Bison or the never ending supply of Water Buffalo that will fill the buffalo or buffalo-like category in Australian zoos in the forseeable future.