Hyenas versus African Dogs in US zoos

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Moderator note: thread split from here - America's 100 Must See Exhibits


groundskeeper24 said:
Hyenas are much less common in US zoos than lions, cheetahs or wild dogs, so they are of interest
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Hyenas are significantly more common in US Zoos than African Wild Dogs, especially outside the AZA. While Spotted hyenas are the interesting species, I certainly wouldn't consider them rare.
 
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Neil chace said:
Hyenas are significantly more common in US Zoos than African Wild Dogs, especially outside the AZA. While Spotted hyenas are the interesting species, I certainly wouldn't consider them rare.
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We're not really discussing roads zoos in this thread are we? "Outside" the AZA is a significantly misleading disqualifier.

Inside the AZA there are a couple hundred plus African Wild Dogs spread through thirty plus institutions at least. There are about 60 spotted hyenas. So numbers wise, hyenas definitely don't qualify as significantly more common. Add to that the huge litters that the dogs produce and the slow to non-existent pace that hyenas breed among the current population, and one could easily make the conclusion that the numbers are even more lopsided.
 
groundskeeper24 said:
We're not really discussing roads zoos in this thread are we? "Outside" the AZA is a significantly misleading disqualifier.

Inside the AZA there are a couple hundred plus African Wild Dogs spread through thirty plus institutions at least. There are about 60 spotted hyenas. So numbers wise, hyenas definitely don't qualify as significantly more common. Add to that the huge litters that the dogs produce and the slow to non-existent pace that hyenas breed among the current population, and one could easily make the conclusion that the numbers are even more lopsided.
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Your post I quoted said hyenas are "much less common in US Zoos" than wild dogs. I wasn't being misleading by saying that hyenas are more common, merely responding to the post, which specified "US Zoos", not "AZA zoos". You'd be correct that there are more wild dogs than hyenas in the AZA, but there are a whole lot more zoos in the United States than just AZA ones. Had you meant just in AZA institutions, specify that in your post, because otherwise it's downright false to claim wild dogs are more common. Furthermore, there is a big difference between being "outside the AZA" and being a "roadside zoo", and it's important not to throw around the term roadside zoo too frequently, as there's a fairly specific idea for what a roadside zoo is, and it's most certainly not anything outside the AZA. Technically, the zoo in question, Columbus Zoo, would be considered "outside the AZA", as it is not currently accredited, however I highly doubt you'd call Columbus a roadside zoo. Similarly, Pittsburgh Zoo, Alaska Zoo, Erie Zoo, Virginia Safari Park, Squam Lakes Natural Science Center, and a number of other facilities are most certainly not roadside zoos, even if they are not AZA accredited.
 
Neil chace said:
Your post I quoted said hyenas are "much less common in US Zoos" than wild dogs. I wasn't being misleading by saying that hyenas are more common, merely responding to the post, which specified "US Zoos", not "AZA zoos". You'd be correct that there are more wild dogs than hyenas in the AZA, but there are a whole lot more zoos in the United States than just AZA ones. Had you meant just in AZA institutions, specify that in your post, because otherwise it's downright false to claim wild dogs are more common. Furthermore, there is a big difference between being "outside the AZA" and being a "roadside zoo", and it's important not to throw around the term roadside zoo too frequently, as there's a fairly specific idea for what a roadside zoo is, and it's most certainly not anything outside the AZA. Technically, the zoo in question, Columbus Zoo, would be considered "outside the AZA", as it is not currently accredited, however I highly doubt you'd call Columbus a roadside zoo. Similarly, Pittsburgh Zoo, Alaska Zoo, Erie Zoo, Virginia Safari Park, Squam Lakes Natural Science Center, and a number of other facilities are most certainly not roadside zoos, even if they are not AZA accredited.
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Cool.

Here's a novel idea.

Go ahead and show facts and data, even ballpark numbers to demonstrate your assertion. I gave you numbers from threads on this site. 200 plus wild dogs to 60 hyenas, AZA baseline only. That's at least a 140 animal gap. We'll include it all, AZA or not.

If you've accounted for the 140 hyenas to support your claim even in a roundabout way, I'll happily concede the point.

Having been to zoos around the country for most of my life, the statement that there are significantly more hyenas doesn't pass the eye test. Knowing that numbers are declining and that breeding isn't common in the AZA makes me less likely to believe that there are significantly more hyenas.
 
Okay, apologies for my statement about AZA/Other zoos.

Either way, I still don't believe hyenas are significantly more common than African wild dogs. I wait evidence to show otherwise.

Also, the SSP where the numbers I posted came from presumably incudes some non-AZA zoos as well, correct? Am I wrong about this?
 
groundskeeper24 said:
Cool.

Here's a novel idea.

Go ahead and show facts and data, even ballpark numbers to demonstrate your assertion. I gave you numbers from threads on this site. 200 plus wild dogs to 60 hyenas, AZA baseline only. That's at least a 140 animal gap. We'll include it all, AZA or not.

If you've accounted for the 140 hyenas to support your claim even in a roundabout way, I'll happily concede the point.

Having been to zoos around the country for most of my life, the statement that there are significantly more hyenas doesn't pass the eye test. Knowing that numbers are declining and that breeding isn't common in the AZA makes me less likely to believe that there are significantly more hyenas.
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@TinoPup keeps track of the number of holders for various species in US Zoos. I'm willing to bet that if you asked her, the list of zoos with spotted hyenas is at least twice as long as the list of zoos with African wild dogs.
 
groundskeeper24 said:
Also, the SSP where the numbers I posted came from presumably incudes some non-AZA zoos as well, correct? Am I wrong about this?
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Typically the SSPs do not include non-AZA facilities, nor does it always have every animal in the population either.
 
groundskeeper24 said:
Okay, apologies for my statement about AZA/Other zoos.

Either way, I still don't believe hyenas are significantly more common than African wild dogs. I wait evidence to show otherwise.

Also, the SSP where the numbers I posted came from presumably incudes some non-AZA zoos as well, correct? Am I wrong about this?
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If you're getting numbers from the SSP, I think you might be using outdated information. The most recent SSP report for African Wild Dogs lists 188 animals, not 200 plus. Sometimes SSPs will include some non-AZA zoos (if those zoos are sustainability partners working with the SSP), however I'm not aware of any places outside the AZA keeping African wild dogs- so in this case the answer would be no, it does not include any non-AZA zoos.
 
Neil chace said:
If you're getting numbers from the SSP, I think you might be using outdated information. The most recent SSP report for African Wild Dogs lists 188 animals, not 200 plus. Sometimes SSPs will include some non-AZA zoos (if those zoos are sustainability partners working with the SSP), however I'm not aware of any places outside the AZA keeping African wild dogs- so in this case the answer would be no, it does not include any non-AZA zoos.
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See the quote below for numbers as of April this year - thread attached for facilities, which does include a couple non-AZA.

EsserWarrior said:
Total Facilities with African Wild Dogs: 40; 39 United States; 1 Canada

Total Amount of Individuals: 198 (103.95); 101.94.0 United States; 2.1 Canada
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North American African Wild Dog Population
 
Neil chace said:
@TinoPup keeps track of the number of holders for various species in US Zoos. I'm willing to bet that if you asked her, the list of zoos with spotted hyenas is at least twice as long as the list of zoos with African wild dogs.
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You would be correct! 39 for wild dog, nearly 80 for spotted hyena. The hyenas are also spread pretty thoroughly across the country, while dogs are mostly in the south and midwest. For us east coasters, they're only at Utica, Erie, Bronx (elderly individuals), and then a few places in Florida. I see hyenas pretty often, while wild dogs are a big deal for me.

I think it's also important to note that wild dogs really need to be in packs. Most AZA packs are made up entirely of siblings, sometimes from different litters. While the overall number is high, the amount of breeding possibilities is much lower than it seems. Hyenas, on the other hand, are perfectly happy living in pairs.
 
groundskeeper24 said:
So 237 subtracting the 3 in Canada at 39 institutions.

That's almost 4 times as many as the 60 spotted hyenas in the AZA.

I'd be interested to know the real numbers for hyenas.
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Since this topic came up, I've done some digging into USDA inspection reports trying to find as many spotted hyenas as I can outside of the AZA. Furthermore, with the rate that animals move around between non-AZA zoos, it's almost certain that there are some facilities to acquire hyenas since their last USDA inspection, and also possibly some facilities to no longer keep hyenas. While I did likely miss at least a few hyenas, what I could find is 97 hyenas outside the AZA, but spread out amongst 51 different zoos. So while there may be more wild dogs than spotted hyenas in the US (approx. 150 hyenas vs. approx. 200 wild dogs), hyenas are kept by significantly more zoos, with at least 70 zoos with hyenas and just under 40 zoos with wild dogs. So from a perspective of rarity, I'd argue the rarer species is the wild dog- as that is what is kept by less facilities, so people who visit a significant number of zoos are likely to encounter spotted hyenas more often than they encounter African wild dogs, albeit the latter being kept in larger groups on average.
 
Neil chace said:
Since this topic came up, I've done some digging into USDA inspection reports trying to find as many spotted hyenas as I can outside of the AZA. Furthermore, with the rate that animals move around between non-AZA zoos, it's almost certain that there are some facilities to acquire hyenas since their last USDA inspection, and also possibly some facilities to no longer keep hyenas. While I did likely miss at least a few hyenas, what I could find is 97 hyenas outside the AZA, but spread out amongst 51 different zoos. So while there may be more wild dogs than spotted hyenas in the US (approx. 150 hyenas vs. approx. 200 wild dogs), hyenas are kept by significantly more zoos, with at least 70 zoos with hyenas and just under 40 zoos with wild dogs. So from a perspective of rarity, I'd argue the rarer species is the wild dog- as that is what is kept by less facilities, so people who visit a significant number of zoos are likely to encounter spotted hyenas more often than they encounter African wild dogs, albeit the latter being kept in larger groups on average.
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Fair enough, then.

I live in Kentucky. In my surrounding states, I can only think of about 3-5 zoos that have hyenas, and there are at least 16 zoos in that radius. Only about 5 have hyenas compared to at least 8 have the dogs. It's definitely not easy to see hyenas in my part of the country.
 
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groundskeeper24 said:
Fair enough, then.

I live in Kentucky. In my surrounding states, I can only think of about 3 zoos that have hyenas, and there are at least 16 zoos in that radius. Only about 5 have hyenas compared to at least 8 have the dogs. It's definitely not easy to see hyenas in my part of the country.
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And I think that's true for a lot of species, in that the holders aren't balanced throughout the country, leading to a species being common in one part of the country and rare in another. Where I live in the northeast, Red pandas are one of the most common zoo animals. Ask someone from Florida and I'd reckon that red pandas are a rarity for them. For me, I've seen African Wild Dogs at two zoos in the past three years. In the same timeframe, I've seen Spotted hyenas at four zoos. Plenty of species are common in one part of the picture and rare in another part. It certainly makes it difficult at times to look at the bigger picture of how common or rare a species is nationwide.
 
groundskeeper24 said:
Fair enough, then.

I live in Kentucky. In my surrounding states, I can only think of about 3-5 zoos that have hyenas, and there are at least 16 zoos in that radius. Only about 5 have hyenas compared to at least 8 have the dogs. It's definitely not easy to see hyenas in my part of the country.
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There's 8-10 with spotted hyenas in surrounding states. As I said in my previous post, that's also a major area for wild dogs.
 
TinoPup said:
There's 8-10 with spotted hyenas in surrounding states. As I said in my previous post, that's also a major area for wild dogs.
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Really? Which ones?

Only ones I can think of are Ft Wayne, Chattanooga, St Louis, Some place called Creation Kingdom, and Columbus, who doesn't have a dedicated exhibit.

I know Cincinnati, Indy, Brookfield, Lincoln Park, Knoxville, Nashville, Toledo, the Wilds, the Ark, and Louisville do not. I'm pretty sure Akron, Wildlife Safari, Charleston WV, Cleveland, Memphis, Mesker Park, Metro Richmond, VA Safari park, and Norfolk do not. Unsure about Kansas City.

That's most of the major zoos in my surrounding area, some pretty far out still. So again, hyenas are definitely not easy to see around here.
 
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groundskeeper24 said:
Really? Which ones?

Only ones I can think of are Ft Wayne, Chattanooga, St Louis, Some place called Creation Kingdom, and Columbus, who doesn't have a dedicated exhibit.

I know Cincinnati, Indy, Brookfield, Lincoln Park, Knoxville, Nashville, Toledo, the Wilds, the Ark, and Louisville do not. I'm pretty sure Akron, Wildlife Safari, Charleston WV, Cleveland, Memphis, Mesker Park, Metro Richmond, VA Safari park, and Norfolk do not. Unsure about Kansas City.

That's most of the major zoos in my surrounding area, some pretty far out still. So again, hyenas are definitely not easy to see around here.
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As of last year, Summerfield Zoo in Belvidere, IL has two hyenas. Hoping to make a trip there in the spring.

A bit further out from Kentucky but Milwaukee County Zoo in southern Wisconsin also holds hyena.
 
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groundskeeper24 said:
Really? Which ones?

Only ones I can think of are Ft Wayne, Chattanooga, St Louis, Some place called Creation Kingdom, and Columbus, who doesn't have a dedicated exhibit.

I know Cincinnati, Indy, Brookfield, Lincoln Park, Knoxville, Nashville, Toledo, the Wilds, the Ark, and Louisville do not. I'm pretty sure Akron, Wildlife Safari, Charleston WV, Cleveland, Memphis, Mesker Park, Metro Richmond, VA Safari park, and Norfolk do not. Unsure about Kansas City.

That's most of the major zoos in my surrounding area, some pretty far out still. So again, hyenas are definitely not easy to see around here.
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Given the arrogance you've been displaying here while being wrong, I'm going to let you figure it out yourself. I don't know what you mean by "Charleston WV", there isn't a zoo near there.
 
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