How is "roadside zoo" defined?

If Columbus Zoo isn't a "roadside zoo" for doing essentially the same thing Wildlife World is villified for, then where is the consistency? If there is no consistency, then why not throw away the term "roadside zoo" altogether?


Columbus has already cut ties with the questionable vendors, as stated multiple times in the article you linked. They also have maintained a much higher standard of care than Wildlife World has - besides WW also still routinely associates with questionable/known illegal dealers. Also Columbus lost accreditation due to management scandal, the questionable education animal issues were found on investigation. It's far less than WW has done at any rate.
 
YOU are the one who said "There is no 'it means this and only this'." All that does is make it seem like a bunk term.
Okay, so I am now of the opinion that you are in fact being deliberate in your "not understanding" everybody in this thread.

How various people defined "roadside zoo" was given in the first page of the thread, and what I had said was "There is no "it means this and only this" - it's not like "give a definition of oxygen". Different people will have varying views on what constitutes a "roadside zoo".".

Your take from that was somehow "I think a "roadside zoo" could very simply be determined based on its conservation or rehabilitation value. That should be something we can all agree on."
 
Also worth remembering all our Fijian iguanas and Ethiopian Mountain Vipers are/are descended from illegal imports (although not directly imported by zoos iirc). Some facilities are offloading animals in questionable places occasionally, such as Tanganyika.
Most (if not all) of our Goeldi's monkeys are also descended from illegal imports. However, in Brookfield Zoo's defense, these were not imported by the zoo but rather a confiscation by USFWS that were then permanently placed at Brookfield Zoo.

To add my two cents to the original question of the thread, I wouldn't get bogged down in what is or isn't a roadside zoo. I will agree it is a difficult term to define, and there is a strong gray area between what does or does not get called a "roadside zoo", so I tend to avoid the term. Regardless of where each individual draws the line, I hope we can all agree that there are both good zoos and bad zoos, and in essence "roadside zoo" is a catch-all term some use to refer to bad zoos. However, I'd much rather call out these horrible places as what they are, and with specific criticism, rather than use a term that can easily be misinterpreted.

As for the commentary on the AZA, while I have been critical of the AZA for certain things in the past, some mentioned in this thread and some not, I will not stop defending the institution for the immense deal of good the organization does. We can thank the AZA for the fact we have sustainable breeding programs in the form of the SSP program, something that is hugely important for the long-term success of zoos, and the AZA is also responsible for a substantial amount of research and publications on best practices of animal care- which are great resources for everyone invested in animal welfare, regardless of in what capacity. While there are certainly good zoos that are not accredited by the AZA (or an international equivalent), praising the AZA and approving of their practices is not a criticism on every facility that is unaccredited. Liking the AZA does not inherently mean a disapproval for anything unaccredited, nor does it mean approving of every single little policy the institution has.
 
Hot take: as zoo enthusiasts we should retire the term "roadside zoo" and replace it with "unaccredited" or "non-AZA". The term is too loaded and is applied for many different establishments with widely varying quality and management.

Saying that a zoo is AZA accredited generally denotes a level of quality we are all more or less aware of.

Saying that a zoo is "unaccredited" is factual and is usually going to be a part of a larger discussion or conversation on that zoo. Calling a zoo "roadside" is often where the statement ends, and that doesn't help anyone. People can always say "unaccredited dump" when talking about such places.
 
Examples of roadside zoos: (IMO)
-Poor exhibitry such as lots of wood-and-wire cages and “corn-crib” style cages
- Excessive breeding of white tigers, ligers, and other crowd-pleasers
- Allowing guests to pay to interact with young animals such as tiger cubs that are ripped from their mothers
- Disdain for animal-care standards, the “they look happy” approach
 
Examples of roadside zoos: (IMO)
-Poor exhibitry such as lots of wood-and-wire cages and “corn-crib” style cages
- Excessive breeding of white tigers, ligers, and other crowd-pleasers
- Allowing guests to pay to interact with young animals such as tiger cubs that are ripped from their mothers
- Disdain for animal-care standards, the “they look happy” approach
The top one for me would be a complete disregard, or disdain for education and science.
 
Examples of roadside zoos: (IMO)
-Poor exhibitry such as lots of wood-and-wire cages and “corn-crib” style cages

The top one for me would be a complete disregard, or disdain for education and science.

I can think of a struggling sanctuary zoo not too far from me that only meets this one criteria - do they automatically count as roadside just because they struggle for money and can't afford nice exhibits? All their animals are rescues and none are touchable by the public other than the barnyard animals. They are trying to do what's right and it's obvious they care, but the lack of money is also very obvious...
 
Their part in questionable animal dealing.


Columbus Zoo's Jack Hanna included in 'The Conservation Game'

You were given multiple reasons for WWZ, and there still hasn't been anyone in this thread who has called it roadside. Jack used cubs from facilities for TV shows, which was well known He never trafficked animals, he never sent animals to these places. Columbus doesn't meet any other possible criteria for roadside, either.

What are some actual things you think the AZA can do to improve?
 
Okay, so I am now of the opinion that you are in fact being deliberate in your "not understanding" everybody in this thread.

How various people defined "roadside zoo" was given in the first page of the thread, and what I had said was "There is no "it means this and only this" - it's not like "give a definition of oxygen". Different people will have varying views on what constitutes a "roadside zoo".".

Your take from that was somehow "I think a "roadside zoo" could very simply be determined based on its conservation or rehabilitation value. That should be something we can all agree on."

How is giving my take on roadside zoos dismissive of the first page of the forum? Again, like you said, it is not a concrete definition.
No, I don't think being private and unaccredited makes a facility a roadside zoo. Shoddy enclosures, poor animal welfare sure would in my opinion: as others have stated, too. I didn't start this thread to come out to bat for Wildlife World Zoo; it's just nobody has given me a criticism that couldn't also be made about an AZA accredited zoo.
I can think of a struggling sanctuary zoo not too far from me that only meets this one criteria - do they automatically count as roadside just because they struggle for money and can't afford nice exhibits? All their animals are rescues and none are touchable by the public other than the barnyard animals. They are trying to do what's right and it's obvious they care, but the lack of money is also very obvious...

And this is why I really struggle with the term "roadside zoo". They can call themselves a "sanctuary", take in unwanted animals, and that's supposed to put them above everyone else?

You were given multiple reasons for WWZ, and there still hasn't been anyone in this thread who has called it roadside. Jack used cubs from facilities for TV shows, which was well known He never trafficked animals, he never sent animals to these places. Columbus doesn't meet any other possible criteria for roadside, either.

What are some actual things you think the AZA can do to improve?

Nobody has said it's not roadside, either.
As for what I would change about AZA: honestly, nothing. It's an accreditation meant for municipal zoos. I just think it's worth noting that it's not for everybody, and not having their accreditation is an instant qualifier for being a subpar zoo.
 
As for what I would change about AZA: honestly, nothing. It's an accreditation meant for municipal zoos. I just think it's worth noting that it's not for everybody, and not having their accreditation is an instant qualifier for being a subpar zoo.
I could name a number of facilities that show that AZA accreditation is not just for municipal zoos, including Disney's Animal Kingdom, all three Sea World parks, Dallas World Aquarium, The Wilds, and countless other facilities that are not municipally-owned (especially when it comes to aquariums).

As for changing the AZA, I for one think there are fair ways to improve the organization. For instance, more cooperation with the private sector would be a great way to have more successful SSPs (by private sector, I don't mean non-AZA zoos (although good ones should be able to cooperate too), I mean privately-owned collections/places that don't fit the criteria for accreditation). Shifting the focus of AZA accreditation more in the direction of animal welfare, and away from other matters would also be a positive change. While I do see the need for zoos to lose accreditation due to poor management (e.g. Columbus mis-management scandals, Lowry Park Zoo under Lex Salisbury), or other glaring problems, but it's truly a shame that there is a bigger precedent for accreditation loss due to finances than anything else. In reality, priority number one on the AZA's part should be animal welfare, and it's a shame when accreditation results don't reflect this. Some visitor-centric criteria also aren't needed- for instance I don't understand why the AZA should care about the pavement of pathways, while important for visitors, I highly doubt that the animal residents of a zoo care about the paths being paved.

I'd also argue the AZA would benefit from a greater influence over collection planning, especially in regards to similar species. Rather than having programs managed separately for Humboldt, Magellanic, and African Penguins, where the Africans are substantially more popular than the other two species, it would be of benefit for a change from individually-managed SSPs towards a "Spheniscus SSP", allowing space to be balanced more equitably between species. This would also be beneficial for other similar species- for instance with Gibbons (this one is sort-of already one SSP, or managed that way, however with more guidance over which species are being held, I'm confident the AZA would be able to manage a fourth gibbon species as well), some ungulate programs (e.g. incorporating Nyala, Lesser Kudu, Greater Kudu, etc. into a "Spiral-Horned Antelope" SSP), Callicthrids (to compensate for the over-popularity of golden lion and cotton top tamarins), and any other place in which there are multiple similar species that could benefit from re-allocation of holdings. While it may be a slippery slope, I also wished that the AZA would do more to enforce involvement in SSPs, and either encouraging or pressuring zoos to choose a threatened, SSP species instead of a common, unmanaged species (best example for this would be re-allocating waterfowl holdings away from White-faced Whistling Ducks, Mandarin Ducks, and Ringed Teals- three common species with no conservation value). While I can see the argument made for deference to zoos in regard to collection planning, it would be nice to see the initiative taken- either at the AZA level or the institutional level- to level the playing field and create more of a focus on species of conservation and educational importance.
 
And this is why I really struggle with the term "roadside zoo". They can call themselves a "sanctuary", take in unwanted animals, and that's supposed to put them above everyone else?



Nobody has said it's not roadside, either.
As for what I would change about AZA: honestly, nothing. It's an accreditation meant for municipal zoos. I just think it's worth noting that it's not for everybody, and not having their accreditation is an instant qualifier for being a subpar zoo.

Why are you quoting a word argus never used? The place doesn't call themselves a sanctuary. They don't take in "unwanted" animals, either - what is your deal with changing everything someone says? They take in wildlife that can't be released. They do the absolute best in caring for the animals, but they don't have the money to build fancy exhibits for them.

It's an accreditation meant for zoos that take excellent care of their animals and want to be successful, and contribute to conservation. That is not the goal of many places.

What is even the point of this thread?
 
As for changing the AZA, I for one think there are fair ways to improve the organization. For instance, more cooperation with the private sector would be a great way to have more successful SSPs (by private sector, I don't mean non-AZA zoos (although good ones should be able to cooperate too), I mean privately-owned collections/places that don't fit the criteria for accreditation).

AZA does this already.
 
I didn't start this thread to come out to bat for Wildlife World Zoo; it's just nobody has given me a criticism that couldn't also be made about an AZA accredited zoo.

Given that WW has repeatedly done business with several people recently federally convicted for wildlife trafficking, and the AZA avoids those people, there's a good reason criticism there.

And this is why I really struggle with the term "roadside zoo". They can call themselves a "sanctuary", take in unwanted animals, and that's supposed to put them above everyone else?

This doesn't line up. Many "sanctuaries" actually are among the most deserving of the roadside label. And no, it's not supposed to put them over the others, though a few act like it. Many of them acquire animals directly for attempting to keep money coming in.
The facility I was referring to holds a lot of confiscated animals and injured wildlife, not actually purchasing animals. It's a really small place that has long struggled with facility upkeep and money being tight. It's a decent facility but it's definitely run down.

Nobody has said it's not roadside, either.

WW isn't really a roadside nor is it great. I feel like this is just bait to get better opinions of WW.

As for what I would change about AZA: honestly, nothing. It's an accreditation meant for municipal zoos. I just think it's worth noting that it's not for everybody, and not having their accreditation is an instant qualifier for being a subpar zoo.

Last night you were saying the AZA was an elitist clique that deliberately excluded zoos that couldn't afford it and snubbed them, yet now you're also saying you'd change nothing? Though I don't agree with the first statement honestly.
And no it's not for everyone - they don't want zoos that routinely do wildlife trafficking or have poor animal welfare. They hold their members to a high standard and accreditation reflects that. Multiple people have now said that not being AZA doesn't automatically disqualify a place as bad. It's a case by case basis.

I'd also argue the AZA would benefit from a greater influence over collection planning, especially in regards to similar species. Rather than having programs managed separately for Humboldt, Magellanic, and African Penguins, where the Africans are substantially more popular than the other two species, it would be of benefit for a change from individually-managed SSPs towards a "Spheniscus SSP", allowing space to be balanced more equitably between species.

Given that African penguin is in severe decline in the wild and Humboldt and Magellanic are not, there is a solid reason for African's dominance. There's another thread for that topic though.

Callicthrids (to compensate for the over-popularity of golden lion and cotton top tamarins),

A species saved by captive breeding with reintroductions still underway and another critically endangered species sound like good priorities to me.

I also wished that the AZA would do more to enforce involvement in SSPs, and either encouraging or pressuring zoos to choose a threatened, SSP species instead of a common, unmanaged species

Cough, the African Penguin, Golden Lion Tamarin, Cotton-top Tamarin that you're suggesting decreasing holders for...
 
I would not use the term 'roadside zoo' to describe a zoo that has the level of development that WWZ or DWA have attained, regardless of business practice. I would not consider either of them a 'roadside zoo'.

I don't think 'roadside' should be used as a synonym with any non-accredited facility nor should it be used as a synonym for any zoo that is engaging in unethical business practices. It should refer to how aardvark250 defined it. Dallas is not a small/town city, DWA is not considered or 'bad quality' or of 'limited money'. WWZ is not considered of those things either, although I am not as well acquainted with that facility to be honest.

I think it may be worth pointing out DWA is actually AZA-acredited, so if you saw anyone refer to them as 'roadside' or criticize them it had nothing to do with accreditation, and they have done many things that are not AZA-sanctioned without losing their membership.

Zoochat has also been critical of Columbus Zoo in the past -- in fact, there was a point ten or so years ago when people were unhappy with Jack Hanna, and Heart of Africa is somewhat controversial for its theming. Many users find it tourist-y. So accredited or not it has been subject to criticism, if that helps.
 
I could name a number of facilities that show that AZA accreditation is not just for municipal zoos, including Disney's Animal Kingdom, all three Sea World parks, Dallas World Aquarium, The Wilds, and countless other facilities that are not municipally-owned (especially when it comes to aquariums).

As for changing the AZA, I for one think there are fair ways to improve the organization. For instance, more cooperation with the private sector would be a great way to have more successful SSPs (by private sector, I don't mean non-AZA zoos (although good ones should be able to cooperate too), I mean privately-owned collections/places that don't fit the criteria for accreditation). Shifting the focus of AZA accreditation more in the direction of animal welfare, and away from other matters would also be a positive change. While I do see the need for zoos to lose accreditation due to poor management (e.g. Columbus mis-management scandals, Lowry Park Zoo under Lex Salisbury), or other glaring problems, but it's truly a shame that there is a bigger precedent for accreditation loss due to finances than anything else. In reality, priority number one on the AZA's part should be animal welfare, and it's a shame when accreditation results don't reflect this. Some visitor-centric criteria also aren't needed- for instance I don't understand why the AZA should care about the pavement of pathways, while important for visitors, I highly doubt that the animal residents of a zoo care about the paths being paved.

I'd also argue the AZA would benefit from a greater influence over collection planning, especially in regards to similar species. Rather than having programs managed separately for Humboldt, Magellanic, and African Penguins, where the Africans are substantially more popular than the other two species, it would be of benefit for a change from individually-managed SSPs towards a "Spheniscus SSP", allowing space to be balanced more equitably between species. This would also be beneficial for other similar species- for instance with Gibbons (this one is sort-of already one SSP, or managed that way, however with more guidance over which species are being held, I'm confident the AZA would be able to manage a fourth gibbon species as well), some ungulate programs (e.g. incorporating Nyala, Lesser Kudu, Greater Kudu, etc. into a "Spiral-Horned Antelope" SSP), Callicthrids (to compensate for the over-popularity of golden lion and cotton top tamarins), and any other place in which there are multiple similar species that could benefit from re-allocation of holdings. While it may be a slippery slope, I also wished that the AZA would do more to enforce involvement in SSPs, and either encouraging or pressuring zoos to choose a threatened, SSP species instead of a common, unmanaged species (best example for this would be re-allocating waterfowl holdings away from White-faced Whistling Ducks, Mandarin Ducks, and Ringed Teals- three common species with no conservation value). While I can see the argument made for deference to zoos in regard to collection planning, it would be nice to see the initiative taken- either at the AZA level or the institutional level- to level the playing field and create more of a focus on species of conservation and educational importance.

I could agree with the point about cooperating with private sector; specifically with reptiles. Could disagree with the point against needing paved paths. Soil erosion could blow dirt into animal's eyes and air passages, and I could see it being an accessibility issue for handicapped guests.
To the point of those facilities you mentioned: they are not small facilities that can't afford to pave pathways, or need to sell animals to make ends meet, or cannot afford to hire a dedicated security team, guest services director, record keeper, etc. There may be a few exceptions.


Why are you quoting a word argus never used? The place doesn't call themselves a sanctuary. They don't take in "unwanted" animals, either - what is your deal with changing everything someone says? They take in wildlife that can't be released. They do the absolute best in caring for the animals, but they don't have the money to build fancy exhibits for them.

It's an accreditation meant for zoos that take excellent care of their animals and want to be successful, and contribute to conservation. That is not the goal of many places.

What is even the point of this thread?

And that facility could be called... a sanctuary? Maybe a rehabilitation center? I would call a facility in such a state a roadside zoo.
While "roadside zoo" doesn't have a concrete definition, I think the nuances of the term are interesting. Bad zoos certainly exist, but I don't think being an unaccredited and private facility are instant qualifiers.
 
I think it may be worth pointing out DWA is actually AZA-acredited, so if you saw anyone refer to them as 'roadside' or criticize them it had nothing to do with accreditation, and they have done many things that are not AZA-sanctioned without losing their membership.

How many times do we need to rehash this - nobody's calling DWA a roadside. They have 25 continous years of AZA accreditation under their belt, which is a longer time than a significant chunk of Zoochat's members have been alive.

Zoochat has also been critical of Columbus Zoo in the past -- in fact, there was a point ten or so years ago when people were unhappy with Jack Hanna, and Heart of Africa is somewhat controversial for its theming. Many users find it tourist-y. So accredited or not it has been subject to criticism, if that helps.

Well and criticism has also been leveled at plenty of other AZA facilities from time to time, things happen and people occasionally do silly stuff.

Could disagree with the point against needing paved paths. Soil erosion could blow dirt into animal's eyes and air passages, and I could see it being an accessibility issue for handicapped guests.

Um... dirt is gonna be a thing in any proper outdoor exhibit, and it's something they'd experience all the time in the wild? I really don't get your point here.
Dirt paths can be a little bit of an accessibility issue in some cases, but as a whole wheelchair tires are designed to handle a lot of wear and tear. I have not observed dirt paths to be a deterrent for those with mobility issues at any point so far.

or cannot afford to hire a dedicated security team, guest services director, record keeper, etc.

My local small non-AZA has all of these. And they're not the most well off either.

To the point of those facilities you mentioned: they are not small facilities that can't afford to pave pathways, or need to sell animals to make ends meet, or cannot afford to hire a dedicated security team, guest services director, record keeper, etc. There may be a few exceptions.

There are plenty of small AZA places that make it work, and there are quite a few places that could certainly afford it that don't have accreditation. Size is not a factor necessarily.

And that facility could be called... a sanctuary? Maybe a rehabilitation center? I would call a facility in such a state a roadside zoo.

Yet for the facility in question they are not a roadside in my opinion - they are a decent facility that really could use better support. They are not a rehab center either.

Bad zoos certainly exist, but I don't think being an unaccredited and private facility are instant qualifiers.

Ironically those two factors are frequently common co-factors in the truly bad places... not saying all facilities like that are, but it's not uncommon. I will agree however that they shouldn't be instantly qualifying as bad.
 
How many times do we need to rehash this - nobody's calling DWA a roadside. They have 25 continous years of AZA accreditation under their belt, which is a longer time than a significant chunk of Zoochat's members have been alive.

Well and criticism has also been leveled at plenty of other AZA facilities from time to time, things happen and people occasionally do silly stuff.
I was only responding La Cucharacha's points, I had no intention of upsetting you.
 
I was only responding La Cucharacha's points, I had no intention of upsetting you.

Not upset at all - more confused at why we were back to DWA again. The facility is no stranger to many of us and its status is well known. While the owner has certainly done some interesting exploits and there are definitely some flaws in the place, DWA really has no reason to have ever appeared in this thread at all nor to continue in it. (Nor Columbus for that matter)
I do understand what you were going for, but it's also already been stated more than once in the discussion so far. As Chlidonias pointed out very early, "roadside" and DWA have never appeared in conjunction on ZC, and I've never heard anyone call it that anywhere. There really isn't a need for more discussion or clarification on the topic.
 
And that facility could be called... a sanctuary? Maybe a rehabilitation center? I would call a facility in such a state a roadside zoo.
While "roadside zoo" doesn't have a concrete definition, I think the nuances of the term are interesting. Bad zoos certainly exist, but I don't think being an unaccredited and private facility are instant qualifiers.

Why are you so incessant on changing words people use? They do not do rehab and are not a sanctuary. What about this description makes you consider them roadside?

Again, what is the purpose of this thread?
 
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