Rewilding

Looking at the papers in question, you are slightly misrepresenting the information presented.

Firstly, the results explicitly state that the European Wild Ass was genetically distinct from extant wild ass taxa (although it does state that all European and Asian taxa belong within a single species) and that it is closest to the Indian khur and Turkmen populations of Kulan, rather than the geographically-closer Onager, Hemippe and Iranian populations of Kulan; as such it is incorrect to state that "both kulan and onager are genetically the same as the extinct European Wild Ass".

Secondly, the *only* Iron Age records of hydruntinus cited within the latter paper are located within Georgia, Armenia and Iran. Barring these Caucasian records (which the first paper states "do not contain the genetic signature of hydruntines, but rather can be ascribed to other hemione clades") all European records barring a single phalanx dating to the Copper Age found in Spain are Mesolithic or Neolithic.

Despite this, I actually agree with you that onager/kulan would make a good substitution for rewilding in the Iberian Peninsula and the steppes of Central and Eastern Europe :)
Onager or Kulan in the Iberian peninsula would make sense to replace the Iberian cebro.
 
Why Pleistocene Rewilding is a Bad Idea

In the modern world, many animals have either become extinct or endangered because of human impacts. Whether those impacts be overhunting, habitat destruction, or otherwise, mankind has proven itself to be a ravenous destructor. As a result, many parts of the world, such as a large chunk of Eurasia, have lost their species. For instance, Central Asia has lost its tiger population and lions have gone extinct in the Middle East.

But at the same time, mankind has also proven to be a healer of landscapes. Especially through the practice we call rewilding. The act of reintroducing certain species to repair ecosystems and restore the food webs. These include the Yellowstone wolf reintroduction, the rewilding projects in Argentina, Rewilding Europe, reintroduction efforts in the African country of Malawi, and the reintroduction efforts for tigers in the country of Kazakhstan. But some have thought of taking rewilding a step further, by introducing animals like lions, tigers, elephants, etc into North America for example, no longer killing exotic ungulates in places like Australia.

This is what is known as Pleistocene Rewilding. The idea of introducing exotic species to replace animals that went extinct at the end of the last ice age is to improve ecosystem health by filling the vacant niches left behind.

But is Pleistocene Rewilding actually a good idea? Or are those into it really distanced from real-world wildlife conservation? The answer looks to be the latter. And there are 4 reasons why.

1. Different Herbivore Behaviors: You will often hear from these people that many introduced herbivores have replaced certain extinct megafauna, and the same will happen if you do the same in other scenarios, like if you introduced African Savanna Elephants into North America to replace Columbian Mammoths for example. What isn't considered is that even if this is true, these animals will likely to things to ecosystems that the animals they're supposedly replacing didn't do. Let's look at a few examples.

It's said that the hippos in Columbia have replaced a giant camelid from the late Pleistocene. However, when these hippos deposit their fecal matter into the waterways, they create algae blooms. Something a giant camelid wouldn't have done (which I can also say from experience as I've handled alpacas). Hippos are also much more aggressive than a giant camelid would've been, and for all we know, probably negatively affect Amazonian manatees in the region.


Sambar Deer in Australia are said to have replaced the giant short-faced kangaroos in the genus Procoptodon. However, during the rut, stags will rub their antlers on trees to get rid of the velvet and Australian trees haven’t evolved to deal with this and are thsu damaged by it. Obviously, this isn’t something a giant kangaroo would’ve done. In this case it probably would’ve bitten off branches.


Well, you get the idea.




2. Unknown Predators: Those within the pleistocene rewildling community are also fond of the idea of introducing exotic predators into foreign ecosystems to replace pleistocene predators. Ideas from this community I’ve heard myself include putting cheetahs into North America to replace Miracinonyx cats, introducing lions into North America to replace the American Lion, and even introducing tigers into the Southestern USA and parts of South America to replace Xenosmilus.


But obviously, there’s a huge problem with this line of thinking: the naive prey animals and native predators.


The large herbivores will not know how to deal with exotic predators since they didn’t co-evolve with them, and this is the reason Bumese Pythons are such a terrible invasive species. And this would especially be the case when it comes to lions since their hunting tactics would be pretty alien to the native herbivores.


Not only that, but native predators would also be hit hard. They would be seen as competition by the exotic predators and would be killed out of territorial instinct, and likely displaced by them as well. Even the mighty grizzly would be vulnerable to the lion prides.


And before someone says they’d coexist like in the past with sabertooths and american lions, here’s what you need to remember: That was thousands of years ago, native predators will not suddenly remember how to live with cats similar to the ice age behemoths.




3. Lack of Tolerance: The majority of people would not approve of these plans, especially if they’d have to live with these animals. Even if you made the process more inclusive, or tried to anyway, it’s really doubtful they’d be on board with it because a lot of people are aware of invasive species and the impacts they have. Not only that, but many will find it dumb that so much time, money, and effort would be put into introducing foreign species to places, especially when those same resources could be spent on preserving native fauna.



4. Ecologically Unnecessary: Yes, when the ice age megafauna died out, the landscapes changed. But so did the fauna composition, and with edited fauna compositions if you will, new balances were created. In South America, the jaguar is now the top predator, and it along with the other predators keep the herbivores in line and the herbivores themselves have their own niches which help maintain the new landscapes. In Australia, the dingo became the apex predator in most of the continent and keeps the herbivores there in line, and they have their own niches that maintain the new landscape.

Basically, ecosystems change, they evolve with time. As a famous fictional character would put it, life found a way.


I bring this up because you’ll hear proponents of Pleistocene rewilding will tell you that the landscapes haven’t fully recovered from the end Pleistocene mass extinction. I’m not sure how they came to this conclusion, but I think the above examples disprove this. So not only would Pleistocene rewilding be ecologically damaging, but also ecologically unnecessary.


And now to quote the same fictional character.


“...your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”- Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park (1993).
 
Why Pleistocene Rewilding is a Bad Idea

In the modern world, many animals have either become extinct or endangered because of human impacts. Whether those impacts be overhunting, habitat destruction, or otherwise, mankind has proven itself to be a ravenous destructor. As a result, many parts of the world, such as a large chunk of Eurasia, have lost their species. For instance, Central Asia has lost its tiger population and lions have gone extinct in the Middle East.

But at the same time, mankind has also proven to be a healer of landscapes. Especially through the practice we call rewilding. The act of reintroducing certain species to repair ecosystems and restore the food webs. These include the Yellowstone wolf reintroduction, the rewilding projects in Argentina, Rewilding Europe, reintroduction efforts in the African country of Malawi, and the reintroduction efforts for tigers in the country of Kazakhstan. But some have thought of taking rewilding a step further, by introducing animals like lions, tigers, elephants, etc into North America for example, no longer killing exotic ungulates in places like Australia.

This is what is known as Pleistocene Rewilding. The idea of introducing exotic species to replace animals that went extinct at the end of the last ice age is to improve ecosystem health by filling the vacant niches left behind.

But is Pleistocene Rewilding actually a good idea? Or are those into it really distanced from real-world wildlife conservation? The answer looks to be the latter. And there are 4 reasons why.

1. Different Herbivore Behaviors: You will often hear from these people that many introduced herbivores have replaced certain extinct megafauna, and the same will happen if you do the same in other scenarios, like if you introduced African Savanna Elephants into North America to replace Columbian Mammoths for example. What isn't considered is that even if this is true, these animals will likely to things to ecosystems that the animals they're supposedly replacing didn't do. Let's look at a few examples.

It's said that the hippos in Columbia have replaced a giant camelid from the late Pleistocene. However, when these hippos deposit their fecal matter into the waterways, they create algae blooms. Something a giant camelid wouldn't have done (which I can also say from experience as I've handled alpacas). Hippos are also much more aggressive than a giant camelid would've been, and for all we know, probably negatively affect Amazonian manatees in the region.


Sambar Deer in Australia are said to have replaced the giant short-faced kangaroos in the genus Procoptodon. However, during the rut, stags will rub their antlers on trees to get rid of the velvet and Australian trees haven’t evolved to deal with this and are thsu damaged by it. Obviously, this isn’t something a giant kangaroo would’ve done. In this case it probably would’ve bitten off branches.


Well, you get the idea.




2. Unknown Predators: Those within the pleistocene rewildling community are also fond of the idea of introducing exotic predators into foreign ecosystems to replace pleistocene predators. Ideas from this community I’ve heard myself include putting cheetahs into North America to replace Miracinonyx cats, introducing lions into North America to replace the American Lion, and even introducing tigers into the Southestern USA and parts of South America to replace Xenosmilus.


But obviously, there’s a huge problem with this line of thinking: the naive prey animals and native predators.


The large herbivores will not know how to deal with exotic predators since they didn’t co-evolve with them, and this is the reason Bumese Pythons are such a terrible invasive species. And this would especially be the case when it comes to lions since their hunting tactics would be pretty alien to the native herbivores.


Not only that, but native predators would also be hit hard. They would be seen as competition by the exotic predators and would be killed out of territorial instinct, and likely displaced by them as well. Even the mighty grizzly would be vulnerable to the lion prides.


And before someone says they’d coexist like in the past with sabertooths and american lions, here’s what you need to remember: That was thousands of years ago, native predators will not suddenly remember how to live with cats similar to the ice age behemoths.




3. Lack of Tolerance: The majority of people would not approve of these plans, especially if they’d have to live with these animals. Even if you made the process more inclusive, or tried to anyway, it’s really doubtful they’d be on board with it because a lot of people are aware of invasive species and the impacts they have. Not only that, but many will find it dumb that so much time, money, and effort would be put into introducing foreign species to places, especially when those same resources could be spent on preserving native fauna.



4. Ecologically Unnecessary: Yes, when the ice age megafauna died out, the landscapes changed. But so did the fauna composition, and with edited fauna compositions if you will, new balances were created. In South America, the jaguar is now the top predator, and it along with the other predators keep the herbivores in line and the herbivores themselves have their own niches which help maintain the new landscapes. In Australia, the dingo became the apex predator in most of the continent and keeps the herbivores there in line, and they have their own niches that maintain the new landscape.

Basically, ecosystems change, they evolve with time. As a famous fictional character would put it, life found a way.


I bring this up because you’ll hear proponents of Pleistocene rewilding will tell you that the landscapes haven’t fully recovered from the end Pleistocene mass extinction. I’m not sure how they came to this conclusion, but I think the above examples disprove this. So not only would Pleistocene rewilding be ecologically damaging, but also ecologically unnecessary.


And now to quote the same fictional character.


“...your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”- Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park (1993).
I couldn't agree more.

I don't may much attention to proponents of new "Pleistocene reintroductions" because I know they'll just never go through. No one is ever going to get approval to introduce Tigers to the US, and if someone did release them they'd all get shot.

But I think using Pleistocene rewilding to justify existing invasive species is dangerous as those arguments can win people over. Hippos in Columbia, Horses in the American West, Sambar in Australia, et cetera, need to be removed ASAP and yet they aren't being controlled at all.
 
1. Different Herbivore Behaviors: You will often hear from these people that many introduced herbivores have replaced certain extinct megafauna, and the same will happen if you do the same in other scenarios, like if you introduced African Savanna Elephants into North America to replace Columbian Mammoths for example. What isn't considered is that even if this is true, these animals will likely to things to ecosystems that the animals they're supposedly replacing didn't do. Let's look at a few examples.


It's said that the hippos in Columbia have replaced a giant camelid from the late Pleistocene. However, when these hippos deposit their fecal matter into the waterways, they create algae blooms. Something a giant camelid wouldn't have done (which I can also say from experience as I've handled alpacas). Hippos are also much more aggressive than a giant camelid would've been, and for all we know, probably negatively affect Amazonian manatees in the region.


I agree with some of your points, but I think it is a mistake to use the example of “invasive hippos in Colombia” in an argument against Pleistocene rewilding. I agree that hippos in South America are problematic, but they were not introduced for rewilding purposes, nor were they introduced with the intention of filling a niche left behind by an extinct camelid. I doubt that anyone would ever intentionally introduce hippos to fill an extinct camelid’s ecological niche— surely scientists instituting such an introduction would recognize that an extant camelid would be better suited for such a role. Extant camelids would also not create algal blooms as hippos do now, nor would they necessarily exhibit the aggressive behavior that hippos are famous for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JVM
@ZooElephantsMan

"I doubt that anyone would ever intentionally introduce hippos to fill an extinct camelid’s ecological niche— surely scientists instituting such an introduction would recognize that an extant camelid would be better suited for such a role. Extant camelids would also not create algal blooms as hippos do now, nor would they necessarily exhibit the aggressive behavior that hippos are famous for."

Here's where this came from:https://phys.org/news/2020-03-species.html
 
@ZooElephantsMan

"I doubt that anyone would ever intentionally introduce hippos to fill an extinct camelid’s ecological niche— surely scientists instituting such an introduction would recognize that an extant camelid would be better suited for such a role. Extant camelids would also not create algal blooms as hippos do now, nor would they necessarily exhibit the aggressive behavior that hippos are famous for."

Here's where this came from:https://phys.org/news/2020-03-species.html
But they were never intentionally brought to Columbia to fill the role of the extinct camelid Hemilauchenia they just happened to be brought by Pablo Escobar for his private zoo and left there after he died due to their aggression, with scientists claiming they would fill an extinct camelid’s ecological niche.
 
But they were never intentionally brought to Columbia to fill the role of the extinct camelid Hemilauchenia they just happened to be brought by Pablo Escobar for his private zoo and left there after he died due to their aggression, with scientists claiming they would fill an extinct camelid’s ecological niche.

I think there may have been a bit of a misunderstanding here.

True, the hippos weren't intentionally dumped into Columbia. But people within the Pleistocene rewilding community advocate for introducing other larger herbivores into foreign ecosystems to replace extinct ice age megafauna. Thanks to this lousy excuse of a paper, Escobar's hippos have been used as an example of that. I was explaining why hippos aren't a good replacement for an extinct camelid.

I also posted the link to an article for that "study" to show that some in academia, if they have the power to do so, would probably dump exotic herbivores outside their natural range.
 
Last edited:
I think there may have been a bit of a misunderstanding here.

True, the hippos weren't intentionally dumped into Columbia. But people within the Pleistocene rewilding community advocate for introducing other larger herbivores into foreign ecosystems to replace extinct ice age megafauna. Thanks to this lousy excuse of a paper, Escobar's hippos have been used as an example of that. I was explaining why hippos aren't a good replacement for an extinct camelid.

I also posted the link to an article for that "study" to show that some in academia, if they have the power to do so, would probably dump exotic herbivores outside their natural range.

Thank you for the link. It is alarming to hear that some people think the presence of hippos in South American rivers is a good thing. At the same time, I wonder if you would be just as opposed to replacing extinct camelids with extant camelids as you are with the idea of replacing extinct camelids with hippos. In my opinion, extant camelids would better fit the niche of their extinct relatives than hippos currently do; they would not create algal blooms, they would not be as aggressive, and they would likely be preyed on by local species (such as jaguars and mountain lions) which would control the population from getting too big. This is in contrast to hippos, whose population has exploded beyond control (as they are much less vulnerable to predation than camelids are), allowing them to more intensely affect their ecosystem in negative ways.
 
Now to touch up a bit more on predator pleistocene rewilding, I was on a facebook group full of people like that, needless to say, I've seen some really wacky ideas. Here's a list of weird ideas I've seen for predators these people have come up with.

1. Introducing African Lions into North America to replace the American Lion.

2. Introducing Amur Tigers into North America to replace extinct big cats.

3. Introducing Bengal Tigers to the southern and southeast USA to replace Xenosmilus.

4. Introducing Komodo Dragons, tigers, and lions into Australia to control introduced herbivores.

5. Introducing cheetahs into North America to replace Miracinonyx.

6. Introducing jaguars into Florida.

7. Introducing Amur tigers and leopards into the Chornobyl area.

8. Introducing Komodo Dragons into Papua New Guinea.

9. "Reintroducing" Spotted Hyenas into India since supposedly lived there in the Pleistocene, supposedly.

Personally, I think all of these ideas are crazy. But is there one you think in particular is the craziest?
 
Now to touch up a bit more on predator pleistocene rewilding, I was on a facebook group full of people like that, needless to say, I've seen some really wacky ideas. Here's a list of weird ideas I've seen for predators these people have come up with.

1. Introducing African Lions into North America to replace the American Lion.

2. Introducing Amur Tigers into North America to replace extinct big cats.

3. Introducing Bengal Tigers to the southern and southeast USA to replace Xenosmilus.

4. Introducing Komodo Dragons, tigers, and lions into Australia to control introduced herbivores.

5. Introducing cheetahs into North America to replace Miracinonyx.

6. Introducing jaguars into Florida.

7. Introducing Amur tigers and leopards into the Chornobyl area.

8. Introducing Komodo Dragons into Papua New Guinea.

9. "Reintroducing" Spotted Hyenas into India since supposedly lived there in the Pleistocene, supposedly.

Personally, I think all of these ideas are crazy. But is there one you think in particular is the craziest?
Yeah, I used to be a part of a Reddit rewilding group. I had to leave as they put these same ridiculous ideas out there. One word against them and you were piled on. It's fine to fantasize about these things, but in reality we aren't releasing jags into Florida or tigers into Montana. It's not happening. Period. They ignore reality, like India already having currently native hyenas.

Reintroducing any big cat into the USA is going to be a non-starter every time. We can barely care for the ones we have, we aren't releasing lions, tiger, or Jaguars anywhere - with the lone possible exception being jaguars into the border lands where they cling on now.

So, my opinion is that the most crazy one from your list is #1-6 as they are equally nonsense.
 
Yeah, I used to be a part of a Reddit rewilding group. I had to leave as they put these same ridiculous ideas out there. One word against them and you were piled on. It's fine to fantasize about these things, but in reality we aren't releasing jags into Florida or tigers into Montana. It's not happening. Period. They ignore reality, like India already having currently native hyenas.

Reintroducing any big cat into the USA is going to be a non-starter every time. We can barely care for the ones we have, we aren't releasing lions, tiger, or Jaguars anywhere - with the lone possible exception being jaguars into the border lands where they cling on now.

So, my opinion is that the most crazy one from your list is #1-6 as they are equally nonsense.
There has been talk of releasing some Jaguars into Arizona over the last few years - it may actually happen.
 
There has been talk of releasing some Jaguars into Arizona over the last few years - it may actually happen.
I know, that is why I said 'with the lone possible exception being jaguars into the border lands where they cling on now." :) There has also been talk, but not a lot of movement that I am aware of, of New Mexico and Texas border areas.
 
7. Introducing Amur tigers and leopards into the Chornobyl area.

8. Introducing Komodo Dragons into Papua New Guinea.
To be fair, these species did live in those regions until the late Pleistocene/early Holocene as far as I know. Not too sure about the leopards actually but I know Caspian tigers did range this far west into historical times.
 
To be fair, these species did live in those regions until the late Pleistocene/early Holocene as far as I know. Not too sure about the leopards actually but I know Caspian tigers did range this far west into historical times.
Do you have a source for komodo dragon occurrence in PNG? Because I've never seen that suggested in the literature.
 
My mistake, got it confused with Australia.
Even in Australia they did not occur in historical times.
To be fair, these species did live in those regions until the late Pleistocene/early Holocene as far as I know. Not too sure about the leopards actually but I know Caspian tigers did range this far west into historical times.
I don't like the big cats ones either. While Tiger and Leopard did have very large ranges historically, neither species was found in the Chernobyl area even in historical times.
 
Even in Australia they did not occur in historical times.

I don't like the big cats ones either. While Tiger and Leopard did have very large ranges historically, neither species was found in the Chernobyl area even in historical times.
I didn't say Komodo dragons were found in Australia in historic times but I get the confusion from my wording.
 
Here are really foolish ideas put out there by the "rewilding community".

Screenshot 2023-01-25 6.44.41 PM.png
Now some of these I've already mentioned, but the rest are just...I can't even put it into words.

But I will say this though, as someone who has written a book on dholes, putting those animals into the African rainforests is ridiculous. Ecologically speaking, these habitats don't need dholes in them and where the jungles meet savanna, it would be wiser to get Painted Dogs reestablished.

And as for the last one...a new ecosystem? Why not restore what once was in historical times instead of making something new? Then again, they are really disconnected with real-world ecology and wildlife conservation.

And I'm gonna say it: There's a difference between wildlife conservation and playing God.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2023-01-25 6.44.41 PM.png
    Screenshot 2023-01-25 6.44.41 PM.png
    55.6 KB · Views: 69
It’s mostly just a fantasy and a thought experiment…reimagining Eden. Unwilling to wait on evolution’s plodding ways…and maybe a desire to play God.

But also not always without merit…if we are strictly speaking of species that recently inhabited regions from which they are extinct. Capybaras in Florida. Horses in the American west. And maybe sometimes where a wild population (properly managed) can be established outside of it's current range as a means of preserving the animal for later reintroduction if needed.

Why not a controlled experiment with Cassowaries (in multi-acre enclosures) to see if the return of a large flightless bird to New Zealand has merit?

And really it’s just a fantasy and in the most ambitious imaginings unlikely to ever bear fruit.
 
Here are really foolish ideas put out there by the "rewilding community".

View attachment 603284
Now some of these I've already mentioned, but the rest are just...I can't even put it into words.

But I will say this though, as someone who has written a book on dholes, putting those animals into the African rainforests is ridiculous. Ecologically speaking, these habitats don't need dholes in them and where the jungles meet savanna, it would be wiser to get Painted Dogs reestablished.

And as for the last one...a new ecosystem? Why not restore what once was in historical times instead of making something new? Then again, they are really disconnected with real-world ecology and wildlife conservation.

And I'm gonna say it: There's a difference between wildlife conservation and playing God.
Well said. I didn’t know that rewilding had such a deep and twisted rabbit hole. Listing off some of the real eyebrow-raisers…
  • “Lemurs in North America”. Ok, and? What are they supposed to do? Replace the North American primates that died out in the Miocene????
  • “Gorillas/orangutans as ground sloth stand-ins”. Last I checked, ground sloths weren’t social, highly-intelligent primates. And I fear that these apes would get sick if they ate from the South American “salad bar”, if you get my drift.
  • “Penguins in the Northern Hemisphere.” What’s wrong with puffins? Too flighty? All auks are great in their own way!
  • “Old world monkeys in the new world.” Pretty sure something like this happened in an episode of Wild Kratts and it was a disaster.
  • “Creating a whole new ecosystem in Iceland.” Why does that sound so ominous?
These ideas sound like Mr Grizz’s plan to restore mammalian life in Splatoon 3. I.e. misguided and very very bad. I can understand wanting to bring back species that have been wiped out in a certain area, but some species are too far-gone to replace. Why fruitlessly attempt to replace them instead of trying to preserve what we have now? To quote the capitalist ooze bear himself:
“The times have changed. The world can never be as it was. Moving forward… is the future”.
 
Back
Top