Giraffe Subspecies in US/European Zoos other than Masai

[StoppableSan]

I'm a little confused about the status of various giraffe subspecies in zoos throughout the world, especially the US/Europe - I'm aware that while giraffes other than Masai are managed at the specific level rather than the subspecific level, there's still a couple pure Rothschild's/Baringo giraffes kicking around in institutions like Freeport McMoran, B. Bryan Preserve and even San Diego Zoo Safari Park, at least within the US. In Europe, Paris Zoological Park maintains pure West African giraffes to my knowledge, and there may be pure reticulated giraffes in different places throughout Europe. This actually has me thinking, other than Masai in the US and these individual Rothschild's giraffes, are there any other pure species of giraffe?

P.S. If there's a thread for this already, let me know and I'll render this thread moot.

 

[15399]

I'm a little confused about the status of various giraffe subspecies in zoos throughout the world, especially the US/Europe - I'm aware that while giraffes other than Masai are managed at the specific level rather than the subspecific level, there's still a couple pure Rothschild's/Baringo giraffes kicking around in institutions like Freeport McMoran, B. Bryan Preserve and even San Diego Zoo Safari Park, at least within the US. In Europe, Paris Zoological Park maintains pure West African giraffes to my knowledge, and there may be pure reticulated giraffes in different places throughout Europe. This actually has me thinking, other than Masai in the US and these individual Rothschild's giraffes, are there any other pure species of giraffe?

P.S. If there's a thread for this already, let me know and I'll render this thread moot.

Zootierliste shows Paris as holding Kordofans, not West African. Do you have a source saying they have West Africans? According to ztl, there are in the E.U., 26 holders of Kordofan, 42 holders of Reticulated, and 88 holders of Rothschild's, and in the United Kingdom, 17 holders of Rothschild's, 5 of Reticulated, and 1 of West African! Certainly a much better scenario for giraffes in Europe than we have in the US!

On another note, I always find it interesting at the Buffalo Zoo that both the signage and the docents call Moke a pure Rothschild's Giraffe and calls one of the girls a pure Reticulated Giraffe, with the second girl as a hybrid. This surprises me just because they are trying to pass off different giraffes as different subspecies, not just calling them all "giraffes" (which they are). While I'm pretty sure they are all generics, Moke certainly does look more Rothschild's than the girls (and any other giraffe I've ever seen for that matter), so maybe that is why.

 

[StoppableSan]

Zootierliste shows Paris as holding Kordofans, not West African. Do you have a source saying they have West Africans? According to ztl, there are in the E.U., 26 holders of Kordofan, 42 holders of Reticulated, and 88 holders of Rothschild's, and in the United Kingdom, 17 holders of Rothschild's, 5 of Reticulated, and 1 of West African! Certainly a much better scenario for giraffes in Europe than we have in the US!

On another note, I always find it interesting at the Buffalo Zoo that both the signage and the docents call Moke a pure Rothschild's Giraffe and calls one of the girls a pure Reticulated Giraffe, with the second girl as a hybrid. This surprises me just because they are trying to pass off different giraffes as different subspecies, not just calling them all "giraffes" (which they are). While I'm pretty sure they are all generics, Moke certainly does look more Rothschild's than the girls (and any other giraffe I've ever seen for that matter), so maybe that is why.

I'm not entirely sure if it's Kordofans or West Africans - I believe Paris Zoological Park's website has them listed as West Africans.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The animals at Paris are Kordofan; the entire captive population was re-identified based on genetic studies and reassessment of the range boundary between antiquorum and peralta a decade or two ago, but Paris and South Lakes both refused to accept the new classification and continued to insist they held the rarer and more prestigious taxon

 

[StoppableSan]

The animals at Paris are Kordofan; the entire captive population was re-identified based on genetic studies and reassessment of the range boundary between antiquorum and peralta a decade or two ago, but Paris and South Lakes both refused to accept the new classification and continued to insist they held the rarer and more prestigious taxon

Good to know! Appreciate the help!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

and there may be pure reticulated giraffes in different places throughout Europe. This actually has me thinking, other than Masai in the US and these individual Rothschild's giraffes, are there any other pure species of giraffe?

In answer to this point, the captive populations of Reticulated, Angolan and Cape in Europe are all pure, as are the previously-discussed Kordofan - although the two Giraffa giraffa taxa are no longer at sustainable levels, with only around a dozen individuals apiece.

 

[Mickey]

The animals at Paris are Kordofan; the entire captive population was re-identified based on genetic studies and reassessment of the range boundary between antiquorum and peralta a decade or two ago, but Paris and South Lakes both refused to accept the new classification and continued to insist they held the rarer and more prestigious taxon

You can refuse official reclassification? Well that just sounds extremely european

 

[Great Argus]

You can refuse official reclassification? Well that just sounds extremely european

You can easily enough, you just may find yourself at odds with most of the scientific community. There have been some such discussions on the site more than once.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

You can refuse official reclassification? Well that just sounds extremely european

You can easily enough, you just may find yourself at odds with most of the scientific community. There have been some such discussions on the site more than once.

Generally with the same wellspring every time, too

 

[Coelacanth18]

@StoppableSan my post here (including a linked paper) should answer your question re: giraffes in the US.

North American Giraffe Species

 

[elefante]

Most zoos in the US seem to have reticulated.

 

[15399]

Most zoos in the US seem to have reticulated.

All of which are actually hybrid giraffes, which many (especially less reputable ones, but also a few AZA ones) try to pass off as purebred reticulated. Same thing that's true with the "bengal" tiger and "african" leopard situations in US zoos.

 

[wild boar]

In answer to this point, the captive populations of Reticulated, Angolan and Cape in Europe are all pure, as are the previously-discussed Kordofan - although the two Giraffa giraffa taxa are no longer at sustainable levels, with only around a dozen individuals apiece.

Are the "Rothschild's" giraffes not pure, then? When was the last Angolan giraffe birth in Europe? I knew the population wasn't sustainable but your statement got me thinking about the somewhat common reluctance to give up on a species (not that I'm complaining).

New a genetic meta-analysis has confirmed that there are actually 4 distinct species of giraffe, not 1 with 7 subspecies. Of note is that thornicroft's giraffe is genetically identical to the maasai giraffe, and the Rothschild's giraffe is genetically identical to the Nubian giraffe.

As for the formal taxonomy, the new paper proposes four species, but that is still a taxonomic hypothesis that needs to be officially tested. Full genome sequencing of the different types of giraffes remains to be done, so while we probably have a good idea of the extent of differentiation between the nine former subspecies, there may yet be more differentiation discovered.

Has there been a widely agreed-upon conclusion to this? I asked a question in another thread, and got a very good answer, but I then found this information, which leads me to believe that my question was invalid. My question is below.

Are the Masai giraffes in North America defined by the four species, nine species, or one species classification? If it is by the four species classification, are the "Masai" giraffes managed at the species level, possibly including Thornicroft's genes, or at the subspecies level? I don't know if Thornicroft's giraffes were ever imported, or if they have surviving descendants, which is why I said, 'Possibly.'

I apologize if this was the wrong thread to ask my question in. I figured it would be good because the thread that I quoted was from 2016.

 

[15399]

Has there been a widely agreed-upon conclusion to this? I asked a question in another thread, and got a very good answer, but I then found this information, which leads me to believe that my question was invalid. My question is below.

There's no widely agreed-upon conclusion, unfortunately. The IUCN working group continues to recognize a single species of giraffe, while many others argue that there are multiple species, of various different amounts. It's really a rather common problem in phylogeny to have disagreement over what is or isn't a species.

The root cause of this problem is that species is not an easily definable term, and different biologists define it differently. Some purely use DNA differences to define a species (Phylogenetic Species Concept), some base it off of the ability to make fertile offspring (Biological Species Concept), while others base it off of morphology or ecological niche. (Morphological and Ecological Species Concepts, respectively). Furthermore, these are only the most common species concepts, not an exhaustive list. Even within each species concept, there isn't an obvious place to draw the line between what is or isn't the same species. For instance, with the morphological species concept, just how morphologically different do individuals have to be in order to be considered different species?

It's a shame, really, how controversial species designations can be, as they directly impact conservation by determining what unit we are protecting. Due to these real-world impacts determining conservation practices, it ends up at times being an inherently political decision, and not necessarily a scientific one. Or, you could always ask a botanist, and there's a 50% chance they'll tell you that species aren't even real.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Are the "Rothschild's" giraffes not pure, then?

No, the European population of Rothschilds *is* pure - but the original post asked about whether there were any pure giraffe taxa in captivity other than Masai and Rothschilds, so I didn't bother mentioning the latter.

When was the last Angolan giraffe birth in Europe?

Maybe 4 or 5 years ago? It's been a while.