It really depends. Something around five acres is good enough for me in a captive setting. From the looks of the plans though; the bulls will be getting paddocks somewhere around 10 acres.
Melbourne Zoo Future of Melbourne Zoo 2023 (Speculation / Fantasy)
- Thread starter Jambo
- Start date
- Status
It really depends. Something around five acres is good enough for me in a captive setting. From the looks of the plans though; the bulls will be getting paddocks somewhere around 10 acres.
No, that’s definitely not advisable. African elephants can pass on EEHV to Asian elephants, which are more susceptible.
In all honesty, I’d say the quality of the exhibit outweighs size. Social stimulation is preferable (visual contact with cows at a minimum); but failing that, an exhibit with plenty of enrichment.
Some of the yards in the new Werribee complex are bigger than the current elephant exhibits at Melbourne. These will be invaluable as the population grows at Werribee and bulls are managed in fission-fusion bachelor pairings.
Dimensions of Melbourne:
Enclosure 1 is 1050 m², including the 'village tank' pool that is about 150 m². Encosure 2 is 1750 m². Enclosure 3 is the bull yard of about 1100 m² including a small pool.
Dimensions of Taronga:
While the Wild Asia elephant main exhibit was opened in 2005 covering an area of 4500 m², the bull outdoor facility, including a a 2000 m² paddock and a 500 m² exercise yard, was added in 2008.
Source: ZooLex
It’s interesting to note AZA husbandry guidelines advise a minimum size for outdoor habitats of not less than 500 sq m per elephant using the habitat.
Before they cram 400 plus elephants into Werribee’s complex, they would have allowed for extra room as not only would no zoo aspire to the minimum; but they want to future proof for evolving husbandry standards (thinking decades ahead); and most importantly acknowledging the social parameters that dictate how many elephants can share an exhibit.
To put a number on it, Werribee have allowed each of those 40 (theoretical) elephants 10 times the space as the recommended minimum!
Aaaa
PaddyRickMFZ
Well-Known Member
Total of 3900m squared across the 3 exhibits including water
PaddyRickMFZ
Well-Known Member
I didn’t mean they would make contact, and wouldn’t even be held in the existing complex. I thought they would get a whole different area(not on the same scale) to go with their African theme
Hey not to take away from the very interesting stuff we're discussing about our Eles' but just wanted to ask a quick WL Gorilla related question just off the back of the exhibit spatial discussions:
How big in metres squared is the Gorilla exhibit at Melbourne Zoo? Has it always been the size it is currently since it's opening in 1990? If so that was a very impressive fear by Melbourne Zoo back then as it's still a big enclosure by todays standards.
How big in metres squared is the Gorilla exhibit at Melbourne Zoo? Has it always been the size it is currently since it's opening in 1990? If so that was a very impressive fear by Melbourne Zoo back then as it's still a big enclosure by todays standards.
Yes, if there was zero contact than that would negate the risk of transmission. Werribee will presumably breed the cows again for a five year age gap from the last breeding, so they could potentially have up to six young elephants in the EEHV danger zone of under eight years.
It’s an outstanding exhibit and remains unchanged in size since it’s construction. These are its dimensions according to ZooLex:
An outdoor exhibit area of 1,600 m² is surrounded by a moat of 4 metres width and 4 metres depth. Indoor rooms are 2.5m high. P
Gorillas use a communal den (approx. 32m²), two dens of about 10 and one of about 18m². Nursery quarters (20m²) are available.
PaddyRickMFZ
Well-Known Member
And
in comparison how big is the WORZ exhibit
It’s 6000 m² and one of the largest in the world.
Upon opening it was stated it could accomodate up to six silverbacks. Especially once Motoba has passed, I’m of the opinion it would be better utilised by Taronga’s young males:
1.0 Kibale (2001)
1.0 Mjukuu (2014)
1.0 Fabumi (2015)
1.0 Mwamba (2017)
As I previously proposed, Yakini could then head up Taronga’s troop of four females; with Ganyeka reunited with his mother at either Mogo or Taronga.
@Zoofan15
All thanks to you have seen the Gorilla exhibit summary on Zoolex thankyou so much (there's a hard to notice mention that the Gorillas technically have access to 1,200 sq m which I assume detracts the moat spatial takings and a bit of the hidden barriers etc which when added is 1,600 sq m). An amazing exhibit still when will have stood occupied by the zoo's Gorillas for 33 years this year!
I didn't think the plans would be on Zoolex as assumed that site only had some exhibits from around the world starting the very late 1990s ie when the internet really took off with everyone in the world (I'd wrongly assumed they only uploaded some projects from a similar time period onwards, for example when I found the Creatures of the Wollemi one for Taronga had assumed that was one of the earliest projects uploaded and shared to the site).
But additionally just saw a similar page for the two Pygmy Hippo exhibits and the former Mandrill exhibits and was really impressed that for a 1992 opened trio of exhibits (until now had mistakenly assumed had opened at same time as Gorilla exhibit) but that each Pygmy Hippo has/had 600 sq m space per exhibit while the Mandrills had 400 sq m (but another 200 sq m in their area for what purposes do not know) but very impressive too. Compare this to say at Taronga and the tiny exhibit yard that Katrina and Cleo the Pygmy Hippos had at the same time (now scrapped and part of the Savannah precinct).
It was really good hearing from you and from Zoolex all these spatial measurements at MZ as 'paints an even clearer picture' of what Melbourne has 'to work with' in terms of their next steps with renovations and species exchanges etc.
Having been most familiar by a long shot with Perth and Taronga Zoo so tend to make comparisons using them, it feels like the Gorilla Forest was truly Melbourne's equivalent of Perth's African Savannah opened during similar time period (the mock fig tree viewing reminded me of the mock rocks and looked at Perth);
;and I guess (again when comparing Melbourne's Gorilla Forest) the equivalent of Taronga's Chimp Park albeit a decade later..but the lush planting and immersive tropical feel of Melbourne's Gorilla Forest shows the decade later process of development (though not knocking Taronga's Chimp Park, it has indeed stood the test of time in relevance, husbandry requirements and public interest with only a little bit of renovation),
;obviously though too MZ's Gorilla Forest was and is a multiple exhibits experience so comparing it to Taronga's Chimp Park am aware am comparing an exhibits precinct to just one exhibit at another zoo (though from memory Taronga did initially 'cram' some Mandrills in at the end of Chimp Park in what would become Snowy's home a few years later, and now the extension of the exhibit from 11 years ago).
All thanks to you have seen the Gorilla exhibit summary on Zoolex thankyou so much (there's a hard to notice mention that the Gorillas technically have access to 1,200 sq m which I assume detracts the moat spatial takings and a bit of the hidden barriers etc which when added is 1,600 sq m). An amazing exhibit still when will have stood occupied by the zoo's Gorillas for 33 years this year!
I didn't think the plans would be on Zoolex as assumed that site only had some exhibits from around the world starting the very late 1990s ie when the internet really took off with everyone in the world (I'd wrongly assumed they only uploaded some projects from a similar time period onwards, for example when I found the Creatures of the Wollemi one for Taronga had assumed that was one of the earliest projects uploaded and shared to the site).
But additionally just saw a similar page for the two Pygmy Hippo exhibits and the former Mandrill exhibits and was really impressed that for a 1992 opened trio of exhibits (until now had mistakenly assumed had opened at same time as Gorilla exhibit) but that each Pygmy Hippo has/had 600 sq m space per exhibit while the Mandrills had 400 sq m (but another 200 sq m in their area for what purposes do not know) but very impressive too. Compare this to say at Taronga and the tiny exhibit yard that Katrina and Cleo the Pygmy Hippos had at the same time (now scrapped and part of the Savannah precinct).
It was really good hearing from you and from Zoolex all these spatial measurements at MZ as 'paints an even clearer picture' of what Melbourne has 'to work with' in terms of their next steps with renovations and species exchanges etc.
Having been most familiar by a long shot with Perth and Taronga Zoo so tend to make comparisons using them, it feels like the Gorilla Forest was truly Melbourne's equivalent of Perth's African Savannah opened during similar time period (the mock fig tree viewing reminded me of the mock rocks and looked at Perth);
;and I guess (again when comparing Melbourne's Gorilla Forest) the equivalent of Taronga's Chimp Park albeit a decade later..but the lush planting and immersive tropical feel of Melbourne's Gorilla Forest shows the decade later process of development (though not knocking Taronga's Chimp Park, it has indeed stood the test of time in relevance, husbandry requirements and public interest with only a little bit of renovation),
;obviously though too MZ's Gorilla Forest was and is a multiple exhibits experience so comparing it to Taronga's Chimp Park am aware am comparing an exhibits precinct to just one exhibit at another zoo (though from memory Taronga did initially 'cram' some Mandrills in at the end of Chimp Park in what would become Snowy's home a few years later, and now the extension of the exhibit from 11 years ago).
Last edited:
No the moat is in addition to the exhibit space, so yes for a city zoo, it’s a huge complex.
Following the transfer of Taronga’s pair in 1980 and the birth of Mzuri in 1984, Melbourne recognised gorillas as one of their main attractions and the importance of building a world class complex to showcase them.
As with Mzuri, Buzandi’s birth in 1991 was international news and they were aware people around the world would be viewing their gorilla complex with expectations of what a zoo of Melbourne’s standing should have - and I don’t doubt it exceeded them.
Melbourne’s complex allowed them to manage multiple males. Taronga’s exhibit has faced criticism by comparison for being too small. Their (cohesive) troop peaked at 11 in 1998 and then again in 2005. The Congo precinct will be an opportunity to build something purpose built to manage their needs into the future.
I’m excited to see what they develop for their Congo precinct and I’m hopeful Werribee and Taronga will be working closely together with regards to gorilla transfers.
Melbourne have no options for transferring out Otana sadly, so the future of their troop will be around him, Kimya and any females they can import. I’m of the belief Fikiri (2019) will remain in her natal troop at Taronga; and it makes sense to breed Otana with females who aren’t close relatives of the only female he’s bred with to date.
Melbourne will have to focus on having a breeding group surrounding Otana. Melbourne will have to wait until he at least has some sons before they can potentially consider transferring him to Werribee apart of a bachelor group.
Also, I'd assume Taronga plan to continue with Kibali as their silverback too. If he was moved into a bachelor group in the next few years, he'd be left with only breeding offspring (Fikiri) and there's no space for him to have any more offspring in the meantime. If this is the case, than we could see Fikiri (and Frala) moved to Melbourne (potentially in a swap for Kanzi). Females from Europe could still be imported to join Melbourne's group, but would give them at least another breeding female plus an older female to boost numbers in the meantime as obviously there isn't the females in Europe to be imported at the moment.
It’s difficult to say re. Kibali, as it’s an ideal opportunity to retire him into a bachelor troop. Not only does he have three sons, who are well represented through their maternal lines; they’re comparatively close in age to him (13-17 year age gap) versus a silverback like Otana who is 22 years old and will be well into his mid-late 20’s before he has two or more sons (which isn’t guaranteed). Kibali and his sons could therefore form a long term cohesive grouping as Motaba and his sons have done at Werribee (16-17 year age gap).
I personally wouldn’t risk introducing Fikiri to Otana until she’s at least eight years old (2027), by which time Frala will be well into her senior years and could be problematic to introduce to Otana herself. The same could be said for an incoming blackback at Taronga, though care would surely be taken to choose a male that could be safely introduced to Johari (2000) and therefore probably be introduced to Fikiri when she’s six or seven years old.
I’m doubtful Kanzi will ever breed given how well represented her maternal and paternal lines are. The best thing Melbourne can do is import two females ASAP to enhance troop dynamics (the main issue in the here and now) and offset Otana’s overepresentation by pairing him with unrelated females (I’ll stop short at saying genetically valuable as if they’re that genetically valuable, Europe won’t send them
).
PaddyRickMFZ
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know how much space is available between the zebras and baboons? And if there is space for another species there? Would be interesting to see what would fit into that area space and geographically wise
- Status