Asian Elephants in Europe 2023

Status
Not open for further replies.
10 year old bull Assam is due to depart from Antwerp to an undisclosed other facility at some point in the near future.

Considering his age, I doubt he’ll be going somewhere to immediately act as a breeding bull, I suspect he will either be headed to another bachelor facility, or more likely, to serve as an auxiliary/future breeding bull at a facility that already has a fully mature breeding bull and matriarchal group.

One other take (and this is absolutely and purely conjecture on my part), but he might be headed to Rotterdam. Given both their breeding cows have recently calves, and neither are particularly genetically valuable, there likely won’t be any actual breeding attempts there for another 3-5 years, which would place Assam at 13-15 years old, a more realistic age for siring calves. Plus, considering they have two young bulls under the age of five, Assam would be a perfect playmate and mentor for them. Young enough to actually want to spar and play with them, but still with enough of an age difference to act as an actual mentor, too. Additionally, Rotterdam has long stated they want a bull that successfully gets along with matriarch Irma(not for breeding, obviously, but merely so they can house the bull with the cow group socially on a regular basis), and so far neither the strong willed Timber nor mischievous Fahim have proven compatible with her. Perhaps Assam, who is a young, smaller, and seemingly affable bull, would get along well with the dominant Irma? Just conjecture on my part, but it’s always fun think about things!
 
Rotterdam plans to build a new bull facility in the next years and I am pretty sure they wont get a new bull until construction is finished.
And the reason Irma didnt get along with Timber and Fahim is that they were too young and not yet able to impress and dominate her. Another young bull would most likely have the same problem. Irma needs a fully mature, adult bull like Alex, she was ok with him.
 
Yassa said:
Rotterdam plans to build a new bull facility in the next years and I am pretty sure they wont get a new bull until construction is finished.
And the reason Irma didnt get along with Timber and Fahim is that they were too young and not yet able to impress and dominate her. Another young bull would most likely have the same problem. Irma needs a fully mature, adult bull like Alex, she was ok with him.
Click to expand...
Mm yes, very fair points! And I suppose even if Assam would submit to Irma now, in a few years as he matures more, he would likely start to challenge her as the others have.

Really, there’s not many large, old, socially savvy bulls left that would likely be a good match for Irma. Alex would be no good since it’s his daughter and grand-daughter as the breeding cows there. Mekong or Ankhor would probably do well. Perhaps Nikolai or Upali? Both would be in their early to mid 30s and are large and easy going, yet dominant bulls. Gajendra would be another option, but he’s better off elsewhere, genetically.

Ah, it’s all just conjecture for now though.
 
Back to @Hyak_II ‘s point of Emmen. That’s one reason why I think they should allow Timber breed any viable female there. Instead of just hoping on one cow. Granted getting more bulls is risky but the odds are much better for one or two females.
 
ZCChip said:
Back to @Hyak_II ‘s point of Emmen. That’s one reason why I think they should allow Timber breed any viable female there. Instead of just hoping on one cow. Granted getting more bulls is risky but the odds are much better for one or two females.
Click to expand...

If you look at each zoo individually you will always find good reasons why this particular zoo should breed. Keeping an overview over whole Europe and seeing what's best for the entire population is job of the EEP keeper. We had the rumor last year that the current rule is that breeding limit is at the age of 25, first breeding at 8 and max three births with a distance of 8 years between births. Given that rule you would only have Swe Zin as breeding cow in Emmen left. Still this would be no problem since you will have this matriline of 3 for a long time. There are many other zoos where breeding is much more necessary.

Current situation of the EEP is that you have a little less than 100 singular cows above breeding age (assuming that 1998 is the limit) but you only have 31 matrilines right now with 17 of them just containing two cows (of which one line is already too old). None of the linies with three or more cows is endangered to drop out of the breeding age, which is why I consider them last priority to breed to be honest.

Top priority: singular cows within breeding age - with these cows you can increase the number of future breeding lines in zoos:

- Tara, Blackpool, 1998 (1 failed attempt)
- Kungrao, Copenhagen, 1998 (2 failed attempts)
- Angele, Budapest, 2001 (youngest son 2021)
- Temi, Munich, 2001 (youngest son 2020)
- Janita, Prague, 2004 (just lost her daughter)
- Marlar, Cologne, 2006 (son 2017)
- Maha Kumari, Copenhagen, 2007 (son 2017)
- Rani, Leipzig, 2009 (birth expected)


Second priority: avoiding that matrilines of two drop out of breeding age. Those are the ones with the younger cow being 15+ years old

- Vered/Vivi, Haifa, 2000 (no bull - line will be lost)
- Indi/Shandra, Zurich, 2002 (known problems)
- Yashoda/Kandy, Hamburg, 2003 (no bull)
- Ceyla Himali/Farha, Zurich, 2005 (known problems)
- Alix/Ziha, Palmyre, 2006 (probably pregnant)
- Lai Sinh/Shila, Hamburg, 2007 (no bull)

In my opinion one of the lines in Zurich and actually even both from Hamburg would need to be moved elsewhere to increase breeding chances and avoid that these lines will be lost.
 
ZCChip said:
Back to @Hyak_II ‘s point of Emmen. That’s one reason why I think they should allow Timber breed any viable female there. Instead of just hoping on one cow. Granted getting more bulls is risky but the odds are much better for one or two females.
Click to expand...
Not breeding longer with one or all three cows makes one sure outcome. This lineage will end somewhere. Sometime.
 
Pongo said:
If you look at each zoo individually you will always find good reasons why this particular zoo should breed. Keeping an overview over whole Europe and seeing what's best for the entire population is job of the EEP keeper. We had the rumor last year that the current rule is that breeding limit is at the age of 25, first breeding at 8 and max three births with a distance of 8 years between births. Given that rule you would only have Swe Zin as breeding cow in Emmen left. Still this would be no problem since you will have this matriline of 3 for a long time. There are many other zoos where breeding is much more necessary.

Current situation of the EEP is that you have a little less than 100 singular cows above breeding age (assuming that 1998 is the limit) but you only have 31 matrilines right now with 17 of them just containing two cows (of which one line is already too old). None of the linies with three or more cows is endangered to drop out of the breeding age, which is why I consider them last priority to breed to be honest.

Top priority: singular cows within breeding age - with these cows you can increase the number of future breeding lines in zoos:

- Tara, Blackpool, 1998 (1 failed attempt)
- Kungrao, Copenhagen, 1998 (2 failed attempts)
- Angele, Budapest, 2001 (youngest son 2021)
- Temi, Munich, 2001 (youngest son 2020)
- Janita, Prague, 2004 (just lost her daughter)
- Marlar, Cologne, 2006 (son 2017)
- Maha Kumari, Copenhagen, 2007 (son 2017)
- Rani, Leipzig, 2009 (birth expected)


Second priority: avoiding that matrilines of two drop out of breeding age. Those are the ones with the younger cow being 15+ years old

- Vered/Vivi, Haifa, 2000 (no bull - line will be lost)
- Indi/Shandra, Zurich, 2002 (known problems)
- Yashoda/Kandy, Hamburg, 2003 (no bull)
- Ceyla Himali/Farha, Zurich, 2005 (known problems)
- Alix/Ziha, Palmyre, 2006 (probably pregnant)
- Lai Sinh/Shila, Hamburg, 2007 (no bull)

In my opinion one of the lines in Zurich and actually even both from Hamburg would need to be moved elsewhere to increase breeding chances and avoid that these lines will be lost.
Click to expand...


Yes, put efforts on all these potential lines.

At the same time you will not be able to rule future calves in strict mathematically formulas. Be surprised by the animal itself.
 
john said:
Yes, put efforts on all these potential lines.

At the same time you will not be able to rule future calves in strict mathematically formulas. Be surprised by the animal itself.
Click to expand...

This of course is true, nature is having its good and right now often bad impact on all nice plans.

The basic mathematics for zoos are clear though:
- about 60 zoos keep female Asian elephants in Europe right now
- we have 31 matrilines with one already being lost for the future
- about 50 singular cow EEP elephants are 50+ years old

=> given that zoos today know that elephants have to be kept in matrilines only half of today's holders will be able to keep them in the future. This is why I say focus on ideally increasing the number of matrilines and avoiding that some get lost as this will hurt a lot in the future.
 
Hyak_II said:
Mm yes, very fair points! And I suppose even if Assam would submit to Irma now, in a few years as he matures more, he would likely start to challenge her as the others have.

Really, there’s not many large, old, socially savvy bulls left that would likely be a good match for Irma. Alex would be no good since it’s his daughter and grand-daughter as the breeding cows there. Mekong or Ankhor would probably do well. Perhaps Nikolai or Upali? Both would be in their early to mid 30s and are large and easy going, yet dominant bulls. Gajendra would be another option, but he’s better off elsewhere, genetically.
Click to expand...

Yes Irma would most likely be Fine with a big bull age 25+ like Nicolai, Gajendra, Upali, Mekong, Ankhor or Victor. There are some candidates. But as I said, Rotterdam wont get a new bull for a couple of years due to construction.

The inpending move of Assam highlights that zoos with facilities like Antwerp are no big help for the EEP as Antwerp can only hold bulls until they reach a certain age (or size/strength) and not big bulls. Which means bulls like Assam have to move even though they are still too young for a breeding group.
 
I went to Copenhagen zoo the 31st of January. And I have some news about Mun. EEHV-HD is officially in remission, and no elephant in the facility is currently dealing with an active infection. Mun was very playful and the herd looked very good. Mun is being treated for the infection on her ears which flared up after the EEHV-HD infection, but is expected to make a full recovery.

I went to Hamburg on the 3rd of February. Less news there the herd was doing well. One of the cows did have a wound on the tip of her tail. But it's being treated and the wound is bandaged. The part of the enclosure that was forested is no longer accessible and looked very bleak.
 

Attachments

  • 20230130_152741.jpg
    20230130_152741.jpg
    108.7 KB · Views: 8
  • 20230130_152754.jpg
    20230130_152754.jpg
    114.6 KB · Views: 8
  • 20230203_160819.jpg
    20230203_160819.jpg
    151.6 KB · Views: 8
Yassa said:
Yes Irma would most likely be Fine with a big bull age 25+ like Nicolai, Gajendra, Upali, Mekong, Ankhor or Victor. There are some candidates. But as I said, Rotterdam wont get a new bull for a couple of years due to construction.

The inpending move of Assam highlights that zoos with facilities like Antwerp are no big help for the EEP as Antwerp can only hold bulls until they reach a certain age (or size/strength) and not big bulls. Which means bulls like Assam have to move even though they are still too young for a breeding group.
Click to expand...
Sure facilities like Antwerp are sub-optimal. But right now they still play an important part in the EEP. As well as the fact that Antwerp did get approval to expand the outside bull paddock. Indoor they are stuck that is a fact. But future plans for expansion in Planckendael are in place. It's just going to take time. And Antwerp and zoos alike are needed right now to keep the bull population. But the future doesn't look bleak.
 
In the movie "De Stamhouder, session 6" appears a zoo with asian elephants.
Anyone an idea which zoo provided that scene?
 
One of the Plock ZOO males (Mong Tine or Shwe Myarr) will move to Lodz. He will join Aleksander, Kyan and Taru. I don't know what will be the final number of the herd.
 
Sad news, both Sandrine and Madu have been euthanized at the Givskud Zoo. Both cows were in their mid to late 50’s.

Interestingly enough, while one of the cows was euthanize purely on medical grounds, the other, while not particularly healthy either, was actually euthanized at least partially on moral grounds. Too old and sickly to be transferred, and not wanting her to spend her remaining time alone, she was euthanized as well.

This is very sad news of course, and also removes a holder of Asian elephants in the European population. While the zoo won’t be holding elephants again in the near future, hopefully they will come online as a bachelor facility down the road.

Read more at the link here.
 
Any news on when the Dublin elephants, Yasmin & daughter Anak plus sons Kabir & Sanjay, are due to move?
 
At Antwerp zoo:
The elephant paddock is being worked on with the expansion focusing more on experience, so no more visible barrier with the ropes but a pit will be dug apparently. Elephants staying in Antwerp long term is probably a no, however the current expansion can easily be added to the savanna and elephants will probably stay for around 10 years. Assam has a chain on but they had to add some fabric around it because of the multiple guest comments. They are trying to habituate him to it however he doesn't like it due to his past. Assam's move is known and will probably be announced around summer time. Assam will definitely go to a bachelor group and will probably not breed soon. He is a special elephant with a bad past in Hamburg. The next elephant arriving is also known and the arrival is hoped to be scheduled on the same day as Assam's departure. Sam has entered must for the first time. It's more of a premust but a significant development. But the transport will also depend on Kanvars possible departure since the KMDA only has 1 elephant crate that they designed themselves and they really want to use it.
Apparently at planckendael they also know which male would come instead of Kanvar but It's still not announced. However some still believe he should get a chance. The problem is Tun kai and Kai mook cycle at the same time so Kanvar can't breed her but they fear Kai mook will stop cycling. But a new male would not solve this issue.
 
Thanks for the Info!
What does that mean, Assam being a special elephant with a bad past?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top