When they can't breed them, then should try every option possible

Nikola Chavkoski

Nikola Chavkoski

Well-Known Member
When they can't breed them, they should try every other option possible, and not just whipe them out by letting them die off from old age without trying well enough to breed them?

What do you think? Is it a responsibility of zoos, because they are designed and most competent to keep a rare animal, to try every mean possible to breed a rare animal, to conserve it for next generations, for the planet, when they already keep the animal captive.

Let take the example with Malayan tigers in European zoos:

Why they keep this extremely rare animal, without enough efforts to breed them?

If pairing is problemtic, then at least, try with artifitial insemination of all combinations of males and females possible. This will certainly cost far less than some dinosaur statues in the zoo.

If you are not capable to breed them, then send them to other zoos willing to take them and to breed them. Why they don't send them in American zoos then? Or to other zoos who will express intentions to try several means to breed them by artifitial insemination.

What other examples are there?
 
Nikola Chavkoski said:
When they can't breed them, they should try every other option possible, and not just whipe them out by letting them die off from old age without trying well enough to breed them?

What do you think? Is it a responsibility of zoos, because they are designed and most competent to keep a rare animal, to try every mean possible to breed a rare animal, to conserve it for next generations, for the planet, when they already keep the animal captive.

Let take the example with Malayan tigers in European zoos:

Why they keep this extremely rare animal, without enough efforts to breed them?

If pairing is problemtic, then at least, try with artifitial insemination of all combinations of males and females possible. This will certainly cost far less than some dinosaur statues in the zoo.

If you are not capable to breed them, then send them to other zoos willing to take them and to breed them. Why they don't send them in American zoos then? Or to other zoos who will express intentions to try several means to breed them by artifitial insemination.

What other examples are there?
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The best example we have in Australasia (my region) is the Collared peccary. While they’re not a rare or endangered species, we only have three left in the region (the remnants of a formerly large population) and there’s currently no option of importing more due to the perceived risk to the Australian agricultural industry.

Melbourne Zoo is currently sitting on the last three peccaries and has no intention of breeding them. Several of us are of the opinion if Melbourne Zoo don’t wish to breed them, they should send them somewhere that will and have discussed options of where they could be transferred to. To my knowledge, all three are reproductively viable, so there’s no medical intervention needed beyond taking the females off contraception.

As things stand, the inbred (albeit reproductively capable population) will die out within a decade and under current legislation, they will never return to the region.

@PaddyRickMFZ @Swanson02 @PaddyRickMFZ @The Sleepy Hippo @Jambo @Patrick Keegan @Abbey
 
Zoofan15 said:
The best example we have in Australasia (my region) is the Collared peccary. While they’re not a rare or endangered species, we only have three left in the region (the remnants of a formerly large population) and there’s currently no option of importing more due to the perceived risk to the Australian agricultural industry.

Melbourne Zoo is currently sitting on the last three peccaries and has no intention of breeding them. Several of us are of the opinion if Melbourne Zoo don’t wish to breed them, they should send them somewhere that will and have discussed options of where they could be transferred to. To my knowledge, all three are reproductively viable, so there’s no medical intervention needed beyond taking the females off contraception.

As things stand, the inbred (albeit reproductively capable population) will die out within a decade and under current legislation, they will never return to the region.

@PaddyRickMFZ @Swanson02 @PaddyRickMFZ @The Sleepy Hippo @Jambo @Patrick Keegan @Abbey
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I would personally opt for taking them off of contraception, and artificially inseminate them with genetically different specimens. Then do the same with their offspring when they reach reproduction age. Diversify the genetics for a couple of generations.
 
Nikola Chavkoski said:
Let take the example with Malayan tigers in European zoos:

Why they keep this extremely rare animal, without enough efforts to breed them?
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Because it is easier to get other tiger subspecies (Sumatran and Amur) which are bred more frequently and therefore can meet demand for tigers much easily than Malayans.

Here is a similar example:

In the United States, the Parma and yellow-footed rock wallabies are extremely rare compared to Europe. This is because those two species are listed as endangered by the US government and require permits to cross state lines. Such paperwork of course takes time and money which might not be as worth it for an animal that has an easily replacable alternative such as the Bennet's wallaby, which breeds rapidly. Since the Bennet's wallaby meets the demand for a wallaby faster than other wallabies the demand for Parma and yellow-footed wallabies decreases therefore the breeding of these species also end up being reduced.

Nikola Chavkoski said:
If pairing is problemtic, then at least, try with artifitial insemination of all combinations of males and females possible. This will certainly cost far less than some dinosaur statues in the zoo.
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If AI being cheap was the case then we would be hearing more news about about animals being inseminated through AI. There is also the fact that AI is not guaranteed to be successfull at first try. Multiple attempts at AI would on the same animal make it more expensive than a seasonal dinosaur statue event.
 
The Sleepy Hippo said:
I would personally opt for taking them off of contraception, and artificially inseminate them with genetically different specimens. Then do the same with their offspring when they reach reproduction age. Diversify the genetics for a couple of generations.
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What's the interest to use costly AI technics to save a lineage of a common species, frequent in the wild as in zoos of other continents (Americas and Europe at least)?
 
Haliaeetus said:
What's the interest to use costly AI technics to save a lineage of a common species, frequent in the wild as in zoos of other continents (Americas and Europe at least)?
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I heard that in AZA zoos Collared Peccary is on phase-out in favour of the endangered Chacoan Peccary.
Though I do agree that money is better spent with ArIn on far rarer species, as opposed to a species which is only occasionally persecuted in the wild, is common in its native range and also quite common in European captivity.
 
dillotest0 said:
I heard that in AZA zoos Collared Peccary is on phase-out in favour of the endangered Chacoan Peccary.
Though I do agree that money is better spent with ArIn on far rarer species, as opposed to a species which is only occasionally persecuted in the wild, is common in its native range and also quite common in European captivity.
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They're still present outside AZA, though, and breed fairly easily.
 
PossumRoach said:
If AI being cheap was the case then we would be hearing more news about about animals being inseminated through AI. There is also the fact that AI is not guaranteed to be successfull at first try. Multiple attempts at AI would on the same animal make it more expensive than a seasonal dinosaur statue event.
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I don't think so that AI costs a lot of money, and even if costs, it pays off, because in the case of Malayan tiger, you are saving an animal that has a population of less than 200 animals in the wild, where every single animal is very important regardless of its genetic value; And is distributed in an area twice as smaller than distribution areal of the Sumatran tiger (Malay peninsula is twice smaller by surface area than Sumatra for example). Half of the AI procedures can be done with joint work by zoo veterinarians itself employed at the zoo.

In N.Macedonia it costs 40 euro first time insemination of a dairy cow, and the price is including the bought semen too. Technicaly is simple, it is not like in vitro fertilization.

Maybe would cost 1,000 USD in U.S.?
 
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Nikola Chavkoski said:
I don't think so that AI costs a lot of money, and even if costs, t is worthy because in the case of Malayan tiger, you are saving an animal that has a population of less than 200 animals in the wild, where every single animal is very important regardless of its genetic value, and is distributed in an area twice as smaller than distribution areal of the Sumatran tiger (Malay peninsula is twice smaller by surface area than Sumatra for example). Half of the AI procedures can be done with joint work by zoo veterinarians itself employed at the zoo.

In N.Macedonia it costs 40 euro first time insemination of a dairy cow, and the price is including the bought semen too. Tehnicaly is simple, it is not like in vitro fertilization.

Maybe would cost 1,000 USD in U.S.?
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If the Malayan tiger is not part of a reintroduction programme, the number of animals in the wild is irrelevant
 
No, but it is better at least to have a sustainable captive population, like in the case of South China tiger. And not to waste the Malayan tigers in European zoos.
 
Nikola Chavkoski said:
In N.Macedonia it costs 40 euro first time insemination of a dairy cow, and the price is including the bought semen too. Technicaly is simple, it is not like in vitro fertilization
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Cow AI is well developed and nowadays its own industry. Cows are also by nature domesticated and for the most part easy to handle. As far as I'm aware, a vet is recommended to do the procedure.

None of these points apply to most if not all zoo animals, and especially endangered megafauna. Nobody is making their money by milking a male malayan tiger, no female tiger is going to be particularly happy about the procedure when awake and no zookeeper in a respected zoological institution is mad enough to attempt it.

Yes, AI is an option in certain cases. Elephants are a good case, where it's expensive and difficult to keep a bull but the females can be somewhat easily inseminated. But even this is not widely used, and an exception.

Your initial dinosaur point also makes little sense to me. Even if a zoo gets lucky and somehow manages a tiger cub from AI, the income from those dreaded and often innacurate models will still be greater.

Overall I think that you are... misinformed about the issue.
 
cerperal said:
no female tiger is going to be particularly happy about the procedure when awake and no zookeeper in a respected zoological institution is mad enough to attempt it.
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The tigress needs to be sedated or anesthesied, as well as the male tiger when collecting the semen. They are trying in a rescue centre (with 22 Malayan tigers) in Malaysia:

Why mad to attempt it, it is everyday science. I think they are doing it with several species, giant panda?
 
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Dassie rat said:
Would you advocate replacing captive Sumatran and Amur tigers with Malayan tigers?
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No not at all. They also need captive populations. There is always enough place in zoos, if there is realy a will to do so, and even more after phasing out hybrid tigers, and inclusion of new holders. USA has place for 3 subspecies, why not Europe?
 
Nikola Chavkoski said:
No not at all. They also need captive populations. There is always enough place in zoos, if there is realy a will to do so, and even more after phasing out hybrid tigers, and inclusion of new holders. USA has place for 3 subspecies, why not Europe?
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Increasing the number of captive tigers and various other large mammals and keeping them in larger enclosures has led to a fall in the number of species of mammals kept in many zoos. By prioritising large popular species over small little-known species, which could be part of reintroduction programmes, many zoos are using 'conservation' as a way to ignore various obscure endangered species, which could become extinct.
 
PossumRoach said:
In the United States, the Parma and yellow-footed rock wallabies are extremely rare compared to Europe. This is because those two species are listed as endangered by the US government and require permits to cross state lines. Such paperwork of course takes time and money which might not be as worth it for an animal that has an easily replacable alternative such as the Bennet's wallaby, which breeds rapidly. Since the Bennet's wallaby meets the demand for a wallaby faster than other wallabies the demand for Parma and yellow-footed wallabies decreases therefore the breeding of these species also end up being reduced.
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Last I heard, Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby was declining because they were breeding too fast - zoos were putting them on contraception because they weren't able to place them fast enough. The result being the wallabies started dying out faster than they were being replaced. If allowed to breed as normal the remaining population would probably do okay for a fair while.
 
AI working for one species doesn't mean it works for another, especially large carnivores and wild species. There hasn't been much research done into felid AI, compared to ungulates, because it hasn't really been needed. In domestic dogs it is still expensive, even though it's pretty common. And that's before you add in all of the other costs - with tigers you have sedation (which is always risky and which keepers try to avoid), all of the monitoring during that, monitoring for best timing, cost to get the semen safely shipped... and then it's rarely successful. Even in dogs, where it's frequently done, the success rate is more like 50% for frozen. Chilled is higher, fresh is best, but a zoo wouldn't be doing AI if it was fresh. Most zoos do not have tens of thousands to put in to something with a high chance of not working.
 
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