Roadside Zoo News website (re Jack Facente Serpentarium)

birdsandbats

birdsandbats

Well-Known Member
5+ year member
Moderator note - Topic split from this thread: Jack Facente Serpentarium/MToxins News [Jack R. Facente Serpentarium]


Smaggledagle said:
I think it is also important to note that on June 8th, it was reported that the facility was fined $238 by the Department of Natural Resources for trying to cover up the death of its (0.1) bald eagle named Ladybird.

https://www.roadsidezoonews.org/post/mtoxins-venom-lab-fined-for-hiding-the-death-of-bald-eagle
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Given that this article contain multiple outright lies and half-truths, I'm not sure I believe it. I suggest you do not get news from this website in the future.
 
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Smaggledagle said:
Why, if I may ask? I thought Roadside Zoo News was a good source?
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I noticed several obvious things right at the beginning of the article:

-The article refers to MToxins as a roadside zoo. While "roadside zoo" is an objective term, this facility doesn't really meet any of the requirements that are usually used to define the term. Animal welfare is high, the owner is reptile professional with decades of experience, ect. The facility isn't even primarily a zoo. If this qualifies as a roadside zoo than pretty much any place could.

-The article says "The majority of the animals at MToxins live their entire lives in tiny enclosure completely indoors". This could be considered to be technically true, however it is misleading. The majority of the animals here are reptiles. Species that need to kept in terrariums indoors for proper husbandry, especially in a frigid climate like Wisconsin. The enclosures may be tiny in comparison to enclosures for larger species, but they are completely adequate for the species they hold.

-The article says "Sadly, Ladybird only lasted two years, tethered to a perch, with no access to the outdoors at MToxins". While I cannot speak for the lifespan of this individual eagle, it is objectively untrue that the bird had no outdoor access. MToxins is open for a few hours each week on Fridays and weekends. During this time, the facility's eagle was tethered to a perch indoors. However, during the times the facility was not open, the eagle lived in an outdoor aviary off-site.

I am not knowledgeable enough to spot errors in the rest of this article, but the rest of the article being equally misleading seems to be a likely assumption. The site's about page is essentially blank, however judging by this article and the general tone of the site I would assume it is run by animal rights (anti-zoo) activists.
 
birdsandbats said:
I noticed several obvious things right at the beginning of the article:

-The article refers to MToxins as a roadside zoo. While "roadside zoo" is an objective term, this facility doesn't really meet any of the requirements that are usually used to define the term. Animal welfare is high, the owner is reptile professional with decades of experience, ect. The facility isn't even primarily a zoo. If this qualifies as a roadside zoo than pretty much any place could.

-The article says "The majority of the animals at MToxins live their entire lives in tiny enclosure completely indoors". This could be considered to be technically true, however it is misleading. The majority of the animals here are reptiles. Species that need to kept in terrariums indoors for proper husbandry, especially in a frigid climate like Wisconsin. The enclosures may be tiny in comparison to enclosures for larger species, but they are completely adequate for the species they hold.

-The article says "Sadly, Ladybird only lasted two years, tethered to a perch, with no access to the outdoors at MToxins". While I cannot speak for the lifespan of this individual eagle, it is objectively untrue that the bird had no outdoor access. MToxins is open for a few hours each week on Fridays and weekends. During this time, the facility's eagle was tethered to a perch indoors. However, during the times the facility was not open, the eagle lived in an outdoor aviary off-site.

I am not knowledgeable enough to spot errors in the rest of this article, but the rest of the article being equally misleading seems to be a likely assumption. The site's about page is essentially blank, however judging by this article and the general tone of the site I would assume it is run by animal rights (anti-zoo) activists.
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Roadsidezoonews usually posts sources to their claims so in that regard they're better than other anti-zoo websites. In this case, its possible a fine issued, but of course the majority of the article is peppered with language that is likely biased and makes sure to paint the facility in an irredeemably bad light. There's usually more complexity to these situations.

Despite masquerading as anti-roadside, I've found the postings on their facebook comes across as straight up anti-zoo and they've unfairly demonized AZA and other well respected facilities any time they can, such as White Oak Conservation Center and Colorado Wild Animal Sanctuary.
 
SusScrofa said:
Despite masquerading as anti-roadside, I've found the postings on their facebook comes across as straight up anti-zoo and they've unfairly demonized AZA and other well respected facilities any time they can, such as White Oak Conservation Center and Colorado Wild Animal Sanctuary.
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Those are really not two facilities that you should be defending, and it is not just the one website that has a problem with them.

birdsandbats said:
Also attacking a facility that has saved hundreds if not thousands of human lives seems low-brow.
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That's a stretch, and not really relevant. Lab monkeys and beagles have been used in work that's saved lives, too, but they're still treated horribly.
Current herp husbandry is generally well below what should be acceptable. We (rightly) get upset if parrots are stuck on a stick or mammals don't have enough room, but act like it's fine that snakes are often kept in exhibits where they can't even fully stretch out, yet alone move around much. This really shouldn't be considered "adequate", just because the animals don't die.
 
TinoPup said:
Those are really not two facilities that you should be defending, and it is not just the one website that has a problem with them.
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A facility thats a leader in conservation breeding endangered species and has quality animal exhibits based on zoochat member reviews, and one that participates in global rescues for neglected large carnivores isn't worth defending?
 
SusScrofa said:
A facility thats a leader in conservation breeding endangered species and has quality animal exhibits based on zoochat member reviews, and one that participates in global rescues for neglected large carnivores isn't worth defending?
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The phrase "don't judge a book by its cover" is apt here.
 
I agree some elaboration would be really appreciated here, not all of us zoochatters are as informed about some of these facilities. If they are doing anything snaky or questionable, I would rather not support such facilities, and I imagine many would similarly feel the same. :(

I've certainly had second thoughts about visiting the Serpetarium since this comversation.
 
JVM said:
I've certainly had second thoughts about visiting the Serpetarium since this comversation.
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I can assure you there is no reason to feel that way. :) This is easily one of the best specialist collection in the US and you need to get here before it closes!
 
I cannot speak for Tino but I do think I may understand where they are coming from.

There are quite a few reptile "zoos" these days. Unfortunately many of them leave much to be desired as far as animal welfare and exhibitry is concerned. Obviously there are exceptions but I've seen far too many "educational" facilities that amount to little more than strip mall menageries. If a private individual bought a former large retail location and stocked it with big cats or hoofstock or even parrots many folks on this forum would be unsupportive of it, for good reason. Just because AZA is behind the curve at times when it comes to herps, it does not make it okay for Joe Schmo to charge admission to a room full of snakes in drawers.

Obviously MToxins antivenom work is important and praiseworthy. But as consumers perhaps we should be cautious about supporting private wildlife attractions in general. I think that may be what Tino is concerned about but correct me if I am wrong.
 
CMTM said:
I cannot speak for Tino but I do think I may understand where they are coming from.

There are quite a few reptile "zoos" these days. Unfortunately many of them leave much to be desired as far as animal welfare and exhibitry is concerned. Obviously there are exceptions but I've seen far too many "educational" facilities that amount to little more than strip mall menageries. If a private individual bought a former large retail location and stocked it with big cats or hoofstock or even parrots many folks on this forum would be unsupportive of it, for good reason. Just because AZA is behind the curve at times when it comes to herps, it does not make it okay for Joe Schmo to charge admission to a room full of snakes in drawers.

Obviously MToxins antivenom work is important and praiseworthy. But as consumers perhaps we should be cautious about supporting private wildlife attractions in general. I think that may be what Tino is concerned about but correct me if I am wrong.
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This is not one of those cases. MToxins has some of the best reptile husbandry and exhibitry in the entire country.
 
birdsandbats said:
This is not one of those cases. MToxins has some of the best reptile husbandry and exhibitry in the entire country.
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Keeping snakes in bins is not the best reptile husbandry, let alone reptile exhibitry. It is among the most deplorable holding conditions I have seen in professional institutions, you keep garden hoses in bins, not snakes.
 
lintworm said:
Keeping snakes in bins is not the best reptile husbandry, let alone reptile exhibitry. It is among the most deplorable holding conditions I have seen in professional institutions, you keep garden hoses in bins, not snakes.
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They live there some of the time. It is the most practical way to keep snakes you are actively harvesting venom from - remember that this is primarily a venom farm, and human safety does need to be a priority. The snakes also have real terrariums they live in when no actively being harvested from.
 
CMTM said:
I cannot speak for Tino but I do think I may understand where they are coming from.

There are quite a few reptile "zoos" these days. Unfortunately many of them leave much to be desired as far as animal welfare and exhibitry is concerned. Obviously there are exceptions but I've seen far too many "educational" facilities that amount to little more than strip mall menageries. If a private individual bought a former large retail location and stocked it with big cats or hoofstock or even parrots many folks on this forum would be unsupportive of it, for good reason. Just because AZA is behind the curve at times when it comes to herps, it does not make it okay for Joe Schmo to charge admission to a room full of snakes in drawers.

Obviously MToxins antivenom work is important and praiseworthy. But as consumers perhaps we should be cautious about supporting private wildlife attractions in general. I think that may be what Tino is concerned about but correct me if I am wrong.
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This is completely valid. Speaking only for myself -- Tino provided enough elaboration on the Serpetarium for me to understand their reasons for taking issue with that specific facility. I think Tino has a good point there.

However when White Oak and Colorado Wild Animal Sanctuary came up, Tino suggested they were similarly problematic and should not be defended, and when questioned made a cryptic comment. I know Tino is very intelligent and knows their stuff, far more than I ever will, so I'd like to trust them, but I also know Tino is one of the members who will rightfully ask other members for sources when they post unsourced news and make "trust me bro" claims, so I am hopeful Tino will be sharing further information when they have the oppportunity.

I realize I am one of the most poorly informed zoochatters, and a lot of senior members trade information privately, but sneggledeggle and Aardwolf are also confused, so it seems it isn't me, snd whatever Tino is privy to is not public knowledge. I think we would all benefit from knowing if these facilities are compromising welfare or doing anything deserving criticism.

I feel like this sounds like a call-out but I am coming only from a deep respect and admiration for Tino here. I should dream to be as informed as they are.
 
JVM said:
This is completely valid. Speaking only for myself -- Tino provided enough elaboration on the Serpetarium for me to understand their reasons for taking issue with that specific facility. I think Tino has a good point there.

However when White Oak and Colorado Wild Animal Sanctuary came up, Tino suggested they were similarly problematic and should not be defended, and when questioned made a cryptic comment. I know Tino is very intelligent and knows their stuff, far more than I ever will, so I'd like to trust them, but I also know Tino is one of the members who will rightfully ask other members for sources when they post unsourced news and make "trust me bro" claims, so I am hopeful Tino will be sharing further information when they have the oppportunity.

I realize I am one of the most poorly informed zoochatters, and a lot of senior members trade information privately, but sneggledeggle and Aardwolf are also confused, so it seems it isn't me, snd whatever Tino is privy to is not public knowledge. I think we would all benefit from knowing if these facilities are compromising welfare or doing anything deserving criticism.

I feel like this sounds like a call-out but I am coming only from a deep respect and admiration for Tino here. I should dream to be as informed as they are.
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I'm confused about White Oak, but the Wild Animal Sanctuary doesn't surprise me. I think that the sanctuary is getting a lot of flack over the situation that is happening in Puerto Rico, specifically with the transfer of animals from the closed zoo to "sanctuaries" in the US. Some of the places that the animals have gone to (specifically the zoo's elephant and I believe some of the primates) would not be described as the best for the species, especially when there are other facilities that would probably be more suitable for them.
 
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