Elephants return to UK circus

Right, I get you're points, but are you actually supporting the keeping of elephants in circuses? Cos that's the basic point that I'm trying to make, they don't belong.

And on the revenge thing, it was a theory I was personally basing on evidence that wild elephants will specifically attack villages and other settlements that caused them death and other mistreatments in the past. Having seen some footage of circus training, I could see where my idea came from.
 
Well they don't belong in zoos either, same with any animal.
However if they are there and being treated well (which I would assume they are, however I'll make that descision when I see it), then I will go and watch it, as I would go and visit a good zoo.
And yes, it is sad those elephants in the videos were abused, but the minority always ruin it for the majority :(
 
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Why would you want to go and see an elephant dressed in ridiculous paint throw tricks in a noisy, confined atmosphere whilst knowing that their backstage life doesn't get any freedom? How could you bear it if you love elephants like you say you do?
 
Well to be fair a zoo is a noisy, confined environment where the elephants aren't free.
And I don't know to be honest, I've just never had a problem with it. I saw elephants in a circus when I was a kid, and the whole thing of the training, trust the elephants had in the trainers (and vice versa), and of course the elephants themselves I just thought was incredible. And the headgear doesn't affect the elephants so I don't see a problem in it as it's purely aesthetic like a lot of things in zoos.
And circus elephants are kept more active than most zoo elephants through training and that; I know someone who worked as an elephant trainer and he said he'd walk them from town to town, so they'd get a shed load more exercise than any elephants in a zoo. People don't complain about temple elephants in India who are subjected to exatcly the same thing.
I'd sooner work in a circus over a zoo, as trainers get a much closer bond with their animals than they would just through cleaning them out and feeding them, which I think is better all round to be honest.
However, each to their own :)
 
Marwell Dalek said:
knowing that their backstage life doesn't get any freedom? How could you bear it if you love elephants like you say you do?
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What does 'freedom' mean?

The animals at Marwell aren't 'free'; the animals at any zoo aren't 'free'. Even the animals in the wild aren't 'free' - there are always going to be elements which deny them their liberty, for whatever reason. If wild African elephants are 'free'. how come so many of them are being killed in Tsavo right now. Liike I say, what on earth does 'free' mean? It's the sort of word, meaningless in its own right, which is thrown about by Born Free and PETA zealots.

Why would I want to see an elephant performing in a circus? if it was a terrible circus, I wouldn't. But then I wouldn't want to see a terrible zoo either. But I think that for an animal act to be successful, there has to be a rapport between human and beast which is something special. And, from the very limited eveidence available - the film on the BBC website - the three elephants in question look to be in fine shape.

I certainly have no particular love for the circus as a concept. But give an inch on this one, and the animal rights loons won't stop there. All that ha sbeen said - just replace the word 'circus' with the word 'zoo', and it all sounds horribly familiar.
 
I think Marwell Dalek means that he thinks elephants in circusses have less "freedom" than ones in Whipsnade zoo for example, however in my post I tried to explain that this is probably not the case.

But I think that for an animal act to be successful, there has to be a rapport between human and beast which is something special.
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Couldn't have said that better myself, that's something I was trying to state in my previous post.
Did anyone see the big cat act at the open day at Heythrop zoo?
Now THAT was something special, and it shows that circusses can be fun and humane to all involved.
 
I just have to add there is no way that elephants in circuses is a good thing, despite their treatment they have to live in small fenced areas and have to be chained or live in truck where they cannot move overnight as there is no other way to get around it. And is cannot be good for the largest land mammal to be confined to one spot for majority of the day.

Also regarding the training and treatment, there is NO other way an elephant can be trained to do such unnatural things such as headstands and standing on hind legs other than total dominance. It can only be done through forcing the animal to do it...why would an elephant choose to do so???

Also i have to add that i know for a fact that racehorses are not trained in that manner...even if not in full positive reinforcement
 
BBC NEWS | UK | Elephant circus show controversy

Notice the way on this short film from the BBC that the RSPCA man moves the discussion on from one on circus elephants to one on zoo elephants. These too, he says, suffer terribly - and one can infer that he is suggesting that elephants should not be kept in captivity at all. This really is the thin end of the wedge.

It's a shame the circus bloke blots his copybook by making a derogatory comment about zoos at the end...
 
Though some circus elephants are chained up and some zoo elephants such as the ones at blackpool, this circus does not chain up the elephants at all and live in a stable tent in the evening and have a outdoor paddock during the day.

I dont think they have to dominate the elephant to do the performance but use positive reinforcement to do so , as with many trained animals .
 
sooty mangabey said:
BBC NEWS | UK | Elephant circus show controversy

Notice the way on this short film from the BBC that the RSPCA man moves the discussion on from one on circus elephants to one on zoo elephants. These too, he says, suffer terribly - and one can infer that he is suggesting that elephants should not be kept in captivity at all. This really is the thin end of the wedge.

It's a shame the circus bloke blots his copybook by making a derogatory comment about zoos at the end...
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:rolleyes:Yes but like all RSPCA Officers he has a vast experience of keeping Elephants and all manor of other animals that you only see in zoo`s and circuses,considering that some of them couldn`t tell the diffference between a Yellow Anaconda and a Yellow Ratsnake personnaly think they should stick to what they know which is Cats and Dogs.
 
Realistically how is a 3 ton elephants going to be 'persueded' to do these tricks through offering a few apples as rewards??

The animal has to be dominated by a human to get it do what they wanted, same as in any animal sociaty. Also for the elephant to learn a completetly unnatural behaviour in the first place, wheather is is taught by ie. pushing, pulling or beating the animal into it. In any training of animals from dogs to elephants there is some form of negative reinforcement, from a quick slap or hit to withholding treats/food to beatings.

For example when teaching a dog to sit it is usually done through gently pushing its behind to the ground then rewarding it, and there is no way on earth an elephant can be gently taught like that.
 
I just have to add there is no way that elephants in circuses is a good thing, despite their treatment they have to live in small fenced areas and have to be chained or live in truck where they cannot move overnight as there is no other way to get around it. And is cannot be good for the largest land mammal to be confined to one spot for majority of the day.
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Again, replace the word "circusses" with "zoos" and it sounds exactly the same.
The training is the same with a dog (I edited this as I realised you'd already mentioned it), and you can't assume that it's always done in a bad way.
After all, elephants in zoos are forced to live in captivity and forced to lift their legs, get in travel crates, lie down when told to etc, etc.
What makes it any better just because it's in a zoo?
 
Except in zoos it isn't standing on top of one another or balancing a ball on the end of the trunk.
 
My point being its the same principal and they're trained in exactly the same way.
 
Oh what a shock :rolleyes:
At least it sounds like a lot of people ignored them. I don't see how "waving placards" will help...
 
I do understand people have concern for the animals but trying to stop the circus making money does not help as they need it for the best animal care . The more money the more improvements can be made.
 
I think they think that if the circus were to close then the animals could just be put back in the wild and everything would be fine.
If they're from Born free then they should now that this is not the case.
 
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