BlobfishBoy
Well-Known Member
I believe they can’t send orcas out of or into California. I think legally they could still AI with the other parks or internationally but their self imposed breeding ban won’t allow that.
Captive Orca Population
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Yes that is the law - but as you stated, Seaworld’s policy will prevent any AI of potentially occurring.
Technically, if SeaWorld ever decides to reverse the ban, they will still be able to breed from the Texas and Florida animals; but that is a very small population.
The former manager folded under pressure from AR groups the more he tried to appease them the more they came for him
I guess there's no incentive for them to co-operate in terms of AI now? Unless it goes on behind the scenes and isn't made public as they wouldn't benefit from doing it, the backlash would be massive if they tried to import any AI bred whales into their current pods.
No, I would be very very surprised if the other two Seaworld parks backflipped on the breeding ban and collaborated internationally. I doubt they'd do it privately, and if so, I guess we'd never know!
If they ever return to breeding, I'd imagine they will acquire new whales (from China and the like) - but again, this is very very unlikely.
Yazziel
Well-Known Member
The law also prevents any AI.
“It is unlawful for any person to do any of the following…….Export, collect, or import the semen, other gametes, or embryos of an orca held in captivity for the purpose of artificial insemination.”
BlobfishBoy
Well-Known Member
Ah alright. Thanks for correcting me.
I would be extremely surprised if they did backflip, which would only occur if public opinion shifted (not gonna happen in the US). The only way new whales will be acquired in the US from now on is gonna be either non-releasable rescues or if somehow BC doesn’t work (like it did for one of their Commerson’s dolphins in I believe 2017). The future of killer whale captivity will be in China and Japan (maybe Spain???, Morgan isn’t on BC but they have a small population, although I’ve read rumors of a collab between them and Japan).
I think Seaworld’s current orcas will be the last - it will take a drastic change in public opinion, and I guess the only new additions will indeed be rescues; which are very rare.
BC generally works quite well with orcas (compared to some other species), but two of the SW facilities, Orlando and San Antonio keep them in single sex groups to avoid the potential risk.
The future of orcas in captivity will almost certainly be in Asia.
Loro Parque is a little bit iffy, eventually I wouldn’t be surprised if they get rid of orcas as well, but in the present it appears they’re at a little bit of a stalemate with only female whale.
Cooperation with the Asian facilities will probably be needed to continue their breeding program imo.
I don´t see too much future for Orcas at Loro Parque. They have lost three females in less than two years, and out of three calves, two have died. And all had to be hand reared. Morgan probably will have more calves, but with only one female, soon or later they´d need more. Apart of the very rare event of another orphan found, the only option is Asian facilities. And that would bring a lot of criticism from animal rights groups. The supposed expansion of the orca tanks also seems to have been dismissed, or at least I haven´t heard anything about that in a long time.
Sounds like it was sold out by a former manager afraid of AR groups, anything for a easy life I guess!
Sacchi
Well-Known Member
Loro Parque was always a PR nightmare for SeaWorld and I doubt they would have sent anymore whales there even if they had continued to breed.
Marineland France reportedly refused to send their whales to LP on welfare grounds, so the Russian whales were always LP's last choice.
Marineland France reportedly refused to send their whales to LP on welfare grounds, so the Russian whales were always LP's last choice.
This has just reminded ne of an interesting rabbit hole I fell down a while ago. The level of cooperation in regards to sharing information following the birth of calves. Facilities seem to be willing to work together for AI purpose but beyond that it seems to break down. This indicates (to me at least) that they don't seem to share information about hand rearing. Admittedly I am not sure how many calves Seaworld has had to hand raise in the same way Loro Parque have - Halyn comes to mind as I believe Kayla outright rejected her once she was born and she had to be hand reared? But you would think that they would share, and Loro Parque would acknowledge, how often calves feed etc. This email trail also indicates the cause, if not a contributing factor, to Victoria's death.
Taken from email exchanges regarding the stranded orca calf known as 'Toa' in 2021:
From Wellington Zoo:
"Unfortunately now we’re heading into the realms where advice starts to conflict! SeaWorld is recommending no feeds overnight to allow the animal to rest and a maximum volume of 3L per feed, and Loro Parque is recommending much smaller feeds and through the night.
I’m tempted to go with SeaWorld’s advice for now, as taking someone else’s advice will make it harder to come back to SeaWorld to then ask for follow up advice, and they’ve been so consistent and fast and helpful with their replies that I’m hesitant to change. But will look perhaps at combining the two views where possible, and bear in mind Loro Parque’s warnings as well."
From Seaworld:
"Likewise, pleasure meeting you all from so far away. I sent this info to REDACTED, but I figured that you also should have it since you are on‐site.
Here’s are example feeding tally sheets that we would require our staff to initial with each feed to track feeding totals and amounts. Feel free to use, copy, modify or throw out, if not needed… I’ve separated out formulas by %, which obviously effects total Kcals. It’s easy to see if he misses a feed or is not getting enough calories, that weight will be lost.
Hopefully, we’ve clarified the formula making and the goal of getting to 100% formula. The Team can start with smaller volumes of feeds to ensure that he is consistently getting them, and then try to increase caloric density by adding some form of fat (cream, oil, or shark/ray liver). As also pointed out with their calves there appeared to be a volume threshold, however if his body is demanding it, we have also found that volume can be increased incrementally if they are tolerating the formula. A lot of it is based on individual. Fortunately our killer whale moms have been excellent and we haven’t needed to intervene, unlike at Loro Parque. However, we have seen maternal neglect in belugas and that is where most of our experience comes from, so in the example provided (doc) one just needs to scale up for the most part. REDACTED at SeaWorld San Antonio did hand‐raise killer whale calf orphaned by mom. I’ve asked him if he still has his presentation about that case… I know REDACTED will chime in at some point, because they have needed to intervene with each of their calves.
The important part is getting him formula on a regular schedule, I would try not let him dictate what he wants right now, as I don’t think they recognize when they are in a “ketotic” state. I wouldn’t worry about a recall at this stage and concentrate on getting him formula that he will tolerate in sequential feedings. At 11 C, he’s losing body condition on dilute formula/electrolytes, so the sooner he can get on a 100% formula, progressing from small volume to appropriate volume, the better.
Let me know if there is anything else I can try to help with."
From Loro Parque:
"I have been copied to a few mails exchanges and thought I would just add herewith our most recent formula (with which we raised two killer whale calves ‐ that are still with us) but mainly the timing of administration. The biggest issue we found out (and the reason for failure before) is the high volume administered in a short time.
It will have to be fed 24/24 to start with until it can stabilize.
If you cannot have access to zoologica milk powder (but often to be found in zoological institutions), I have also used human milk powder - without lactose ‐ with success.
With a size of 2,15 m ‐ your calf will probably be about 2 to 2,5 months old (the size of our male calf at that age).
For our calves at that age, we really found out that 9L per day is a great maximum (when going higher they started developing medical problems (delay in digestion and inflammation of the digestive system), and these problems can also only be identified if you can take blood regularly and especially perform ultrasounds of the digestive system (together with being able to recognize and assess their digestive organs). They will NOT show these digestive problems behaviourally until they are pretty far. Problem is to reach the necessary calories, as mum’s milk is way
more caloric than what we can offer them. And the mistake then is going up with the formula.
We would start around the clock ‐ every 2 hours ‐ with a low volume of intubation/bottle‐ and then we’d raise the volume slowly up to 1000 - 1300 ml (over weeks) max per intubation/bottle and start having longer times at night without feeding.
Up to an age of 9‐10 months, 12 L would be the great maximum ‐ but generally we had to go back down to less because of changes identified in the blood and by ultrasound ‐ all related to food.
The other major issue we have found over time is starting to feed fish too early ‐ which I absolutely not recommend (not before 6 months of age, and still, in small quantities).
These are in the big lines the lessons we learned by raising 3 calves, 2 having been successful, and having learned the mistakes from the other one.
What is also very helpful is to add tensio‐actives (simethicone) with every formula administration (certainly if by bottle), because they will swallow large quantities of air. Their abdomen is not “distendable” like in other species, and this high quantity of air in their guts can make them very uncomfortable.
Please let me know if I can help you in any other way."
Taken from email exchanges regarding the stranded orca calf known as 'Toa' in 2021:
From Wellington Zoo:
"Unfortunately now we’re heading into the realms where advice starts to conflict! SeaWorld is recommending no feeds overnight to allow the animal to rest and a maximum volume of 3L per feed, and Loro Parque is recommending much smaller feeds and through the night.
I’m tempted to go with SeaWorld’s advice for now, as taking someone else’s advice will make it harder to come back to SeaWorld to then ask for follow up advice, and they’ve been so consistent and fast and helpful with their replies that I’m hesitant to change. But will look perhaps at combining the two views where possible, and bear in mind Loro Parque’s warnings as well."
From Seaworld:
"Likewise, pleasure meeting you all from so far away. I sent this info to REDACTED, but I figured that you also should have it since you are on‐site.
Here’s are example feeding tally sheets that we would require our staff to initial with each feed to track feeding totals and amounts. Feel free to use, copy, modify or throw out, if not needed… I’ve separated out formulas by %, which obviously effects total Kcals. It’s easy to see if he misses a feed or is not getting enough calories, that weight will be lost.
Hopefully, we’ve clarified the formula making and the goal of getting to 100% formula. The Team can start with smaller volumes of feeds to ensure that he is consistently getting them, and then try to increase caloric density by adding some form of fat (cream, oil, or shark/ray liver). As also pointed out with their calves there appeared to be a volume threshold, however if his body is demanding it, we have also found that volume can be increased incrementally if they are tolerating the formula. A lot of it is based on individual. Fortunately our killer whale moms have been excellent and we haven’t needed to intervene, unlike at Loro Parque. However, we have seen maternal neglect in belugas and that is where most of our experience comes from, so in the example provided (doc) one just needs to scale up for the most part. REDACTED at SeaWorld San Antonio did hand‐raise killer whale calf orphaned by mom. I’ve asked him if he still has his presentation about that case… I know REDACTED will chime in at some point, because they have needed to intervene with each of their calves.
The important part is getting him formula on a regular schedule, I would try not let him dictate what he wants right now, as I don’t think they recognize when they are in a “ketotic” state. I wouldn’t worry about a recall at this stage and concentrate on getting him formula that he will tolerate in sequential feedings. At 11 C, he’s losing body condition on dilute formula/electrolytes, so the sooner he can get on a 100% formula, progressing from small volume to appropriate volume, the better.
Let me know if there is anything else I can try to help with."
From Loro Parque:
"I have been copied to a few mails exchanges and thought I would just add herewith our most recent formula (with which we raised two killer whale calves ‐ that are still with us) but mainly the timing of administration. The biggest issue we found out (and the reason for failure before) is the high volume administered in a short time.
It will have to be fed 24/24 to start with until it can stabilize.
If you cannot have access to zoologica milk powder (but often to be found in zoological institutions), I have also used human milk powder - without lactose ‐ with success.
With a size of 2,15 m ‐ your calf will probably be about 2 to 2,5 months old (the size of our male calf at that age).
For our calves at that age, we really found out that 9L per day is a great maximum (when going higher they started developing medical problems (delay in digestion and inflammation of the digestive system), and these problems can also only be identified if you can take blood regularly and especially perform ultrasounds of the digestive system (together with being able to recognize and assess their digestive organs). They will NOT show these digestive problems behaviourally until they are pretty far. Problem is to reach the necessary calories, as mum’s milk is way
more caloric than what we can offer them. And the mistake then is going up with the formula.
We would start around the clock ‐ every 2 hours ‐ with a low volume of intubation/bottle‐ and then we’d raise the volume slowly up to 1000 - 1300 ml (over weeks) max per intubation/bottle and start having longer times at night without feeding.
Up to an age of 9‐10 months, 12 L would be the great maximum ‐ but generally we had to go back down to less because of changes identified in the blood and by ultrasound ‐ all related to food.
The other major issue we have found over time is starting to feed fish too early ‐ which I absolutely not recommend (not before 6 months of age, and still, in small quantities).
These are in the big lines the lessons we learned by raising 3 calves, 2 having been successful, and having learned the mistakes from the other one.
What is also very helpful is to add tensio‐actives (simethicone) with every formula administration (certainly if by bottle), because they will swallow large quantities of air. Their abdomen is not “distendable” like in other species, and this high quantity of air in their guts can make them very uncomfortable.
Please let me know if I can help you in any other way."
Certainly was. SeaWorld ended up relinquishing their orcas around the time they ended their breeding program. They had turned into a nightmare dealing with them, especially as they were essentially overseas.
Monitoring practices was becoming difficult; and I guess it always was going to be this way looking back on things. Seaworld ultimately deemed the battle of ever bringing them back to the States and the negative PR that would come with it wouldn’t be worth it.
Loro Parque’s care of their orcas has long been scrutinised; and I’m not surprised to hear ML refused to send their orcas there. LP would’ve been closer for ML’s orcas, and they have better facilities, so ML choosing to send their orcas all the way to Japan instead I think says a lot.
SeaWorld advised LP about initially handrearing Adan and Victoria, when SW still owned the orcas there (besides Morgan). Considering SeaWorld sold the orcas to LP in 2017, I believe the cooperation that was once there had ceased to exist and therefore LP had begun to learn themselves when it came to handraising Ula.
Due to the fact they would’ve conducted this themselves, I would imagine their practices (and beliefs) would have changed, and they would’ve probably developed a different and perhaps more effective approach to what SW had once advised them of.
Seaworld’s only orca calf that they’d successfully handraised was Halyn - and this was more so of a trial and error as I recall a trainer mentioning at the time.
Sacchi
Well-Known Member
Something that has always baffled me is the captive orca studbook.
SeaWorld are the captive orca studbook holders but unlike other zoo species, where all keepers can freely look at the books, the orca studbook is locked down tight, and even long term senior orca trainers need SeaWorld management permission to look at it, and SeaWorld can refuse the request. Why?. We know who the parents are for pretty much every calf, so why the secrecy?. What are they hiding?
SeaWorld run the North America bottlenose dolphin studbook too, and that used to be online for everyone to see.
Sacchi
Well-Known Member
Indeed!. Sending them to one of the worlds oldest and smallest facilities instead of one of the most modern speaks volumes about how LP are viewed inside the zoo community.
Jonathan Petersson
Well-Known Member
Just to add on to your statement, SeaWorld is still interested in taking in rescue killer whales even with the bad PR. For example they wanted to bring Toa to San Diego in 2021 which did not work out, but the breeding ban for better or worse will never be changed.
There is a report available, I can't remember who by, I think it is the NMFS? I have it saved somewhere that listed almost every captive orca birth, transfer and death and some of those dates are blatantly wrong, it is a government report and there are missing individuals but I am not sure if this is a lack of transparency on Seaworld's part or on the part of whoever put the information together.
Wasn't the timing of their announcement that they were transferring ownership of the LP whales really close to the announcement of Morgan's pregnancy? The original loan terms were for 25 years with an option to renew every 10 years I believe. That had to have been a factor given the backlash to Takara's pregnancy, which I believe was known well before they announced the plan to stop breeding. They leaned heavily into the 'last orca to be born at Seaworld' angle in all the PR videos of Kyara.
“During the three months ended September 30, 2017, the company amended its existing agreement with Loro Parque concerning the orcas at that park. The agreement was amended in order to end its business relationship due to a contractual dispute. As a result, the company recognized an impairment loss of approximately $7.8 million during the third quarter of 2017.” (SeaWorld Form 8-K EX-99.1 SEC filing 7 November 2017)
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