They’re half and full brothers of the two bulls heading to Cincinnati.
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation
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Wild card for the win!
Nile Hippo Expert
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While I'm surprised about the destination, this was the right decision for multiple reasons for the Hogle Zoo girls. First, the Kansas City Zoo just opened their new exhibit in 2020, and they didn't bring any new elephants in, so there is definitely room for Christie and Zuri. Second, all of KC's cows are post-reproductive (their youngest, Zoe is 39), so bringing in a teenage female elephant like Zuri gives them a chance of baby elephants in the future. Tamani has never been in a breeding situation, as his past has been in either a post-reproductive female herd or a bachelor herd in Birmingham, so it is good to give him a chance at becoming a father. Look at what happened to Callee after he left Birmingham Zoo's bachelor herd for Omaha - he started breeding the cows almost immediately after being introduced to them. The third thing is that it also gives Kansas City's existing cows to act more socially, as if they were wild. This will be key once a few of their older elephants pass away, getting more new animals that the elephants will know, and it reduces the chances of rushing to acquire more elephants for socialization purposes. One more thing is that most other zoos with breeding herds (Omaha[Callee is only on a breeding loan], Wichita[in this case Titan], Dallas, Disney, Fresono, etc.) already have animals of both sexes that are able to reproduce, and Kansas City did not have a still-reproductive female, so Zuri takes that place. Even Christie might be able to have one more calf, so maybe we could see two baby elephants one day in Kansas City. We can only have our fingers crossed that Tamani will be a good breeding bull in the future.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
According to @zoocentral in the Hogle Zoo news thread and @MidwestFan in the Kansas City Zoo news thread, the elephant plans for the Hogle Zoo have changed, and they will probably not be bringing elephants back to the zoo. Back in March, the zoo announced that they would be "taking a break" from elephants, but they have decided to change it to "phasing out" elephants.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I heard from someone on the Asian Elephant thread that Cinci doesn't plan to send out the boys anytime soon. I'm unsure how reliable that information is but it would make sense for them to be given an oppertunity to socialize with Sabu and learn from him since it is my understanding that he will be with Yasmin/SheRa and Anak most of the time for higher chances of breeding just like he is with Columbus' females most/all of the day currently. It wouldn't surprise me if they just stopped putting Sabu in with Jati now that they have reproductive proven females, I doubt she'll have another calf given how long its been. Which is a shame since her and Sabu are incredibly valuable and shes technically still within reproductive years.
That would make sense; as socialisation for the bulls would be important as they've been without a mentor since their father, Upali was sent to another facility when they were still young; and have spent their adolescence years being the only bulls in Dublin's herd too. Socialisation with Sabu would therefore probably be a high priority for them in the meantime.
Honestly, it's now way too late for Jati to ever successfully concieve again. She last gave birth a quarter of a century ago, and that's stretching their reproductive boundaries by a lot. I don't see why she still can't spend time with Sabu, alongside the new Dublin girls, although breeding won't of course be the intention.
Sabu is very valuable and my hope is that he can conceive at Colombus (with all three girls there), and at Cincy with the two new Dublin girls.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I would imagine Cinci's hope is to integrate their 3 previous cows in with the Dublin herd, but given how Jati has been picking on Mai Tai for a while now I'm not sure how she would mix in. Maybe being in a bigger space with more individuals to keep her in check would fix that issue but it's hard to say.
My guess is that they would want Sabu with the Dublin girls until they're both pregnant and if for some reason introductions between the Dublin herd and Jati or even Shottzie (since they're both very dominant females) don't go well I can see how keeping Sabu with the reproductive females would be a priority. But honestly fingers crossed they're all able to integrate so splits won't be an issue!
Truthfully, it would be in everyone’s best interests to simply send out their existing three cows, and focus solely on the imported cow group with Sabu heading up things as a breeding bull, re: Cincinnati. Yasmin is a socially savvy, middle aged cow. She’s more than capable of being the matriarch over her own family group. Given Sabu is a proven natural Breeder, and both Yasmin and Anak are also very well proven as well, I have no doubt that they’ll have calves on the ground in “short order” once intro’s occur. Despite the fact that Schottzie and the new group are technically related, they don’t know that. They’ve never met each other in their lives. Schottzie was in North America before Yasmin was even born. Trying to introduce the older two/three older cows into a matrilineal group that’s already well established is just asking for social strife.
Also in regards to Frankie breeding, I would say depending on how things go at Columbus, there’s absolutely a chance that he might end up breeding sooner than one would expect. Assuming Rudy and Sundara end up having female calves, they would be completely unrelated to Frankie. And of course he’s obviously unrelated to the two themselves. Of course none of us know at this point, it’s far too early to make assumptions, but I definitely wouldn’t write anything off the books for him being a potential future breeding bull down the road.
Also in regards to Frankie breeding, I would say depending on how things go at Columbus, there’s absolutely a chance that he might end up breeding sooner than one would expect. Assuming Rudy and Sundara end up having female calves, they would be completely unrelated to Frankie. And of course he’s obviously unrelated to the two themselves. Of course none of us know at this point, it’s far too early to make assumptions, but I definitely wouldn’t write anything off the books for him being a potential future breeding bull down the road.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I really hope Cinci doesn't rush any introductions. I would be very surprised if they DIDN'T at least try to integrate the older three given how proudly they've said Schottzie and Yasmin are related. But all the same, yeah I can 100% see things not going well. MAYBE Mai Thai could be introduced since to my understanding she's had to be separated from Schottzie and Jati completely and that could become an ethical problem very quick, but notoriously older cow introductions don't go well. At the very least it would be more responsible to wait for introductions when the calves are 100% separated from their mothers and begin to spend time independently, that way it's less of an established herd and more of just two cows being introduced to another 3.
Given how fast they plan on bringing Sabu back from Columbus it's safe to say that their main goal is getting the Dublin cows pregnant asap, and like you said I wouldn't be surprised if we did see calves on the ground in early 2026! I would sincerely hope they wouldn't jeopardize the new arrivals by a rushed introduction but its tough to say as of now.
I hadn't even considered any calves of Rudy and Sunny! This is likely the only situation Frankie would ever be considered for as a breeding bull if the population in North America doesn't shift. Its rather unfortunate that Columbus didn't choose a more valuable bull for AI but their options were likely limited when Phoebe was inseminated. When she had Ellie back in 2018 the potential fathers were Hank and I believe another very well represented bull (the name is escaping me at the moment) and Columbus never revealed the father if I remember correctly. Its a shame Sabu wasn't an option at the time.
Personally I think it would be wise for Columbus to aquire a new breeding bull in at least the next five years so that, if Rudy and Sunny have calves in 2025, they can continue to reproduce in healthy intervals. I can't really see Rudy or Sunny wanting to breed with a bull so much younger than them, it's not unheard of but I think they'd have more success with somebody closer in age/older rather than Frankie. If St Louis would ever give up Raja (doubtful) I think he'd be a wonderful choice since he's unrelated to the Columbus cows and is a proven breeder. But all the same any calf Phoebe has next will very likely be her last according to staff at Cbus so if Columbus wants to keep a healthy breeding herd Rudy and Sunny really need to have calves asap. Sunny has a bit more time but she very well couldve had multiple calves by now if Beco had been proven before he passed.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I've never been able to find a solid answer on this, and truthfully I'm not even sure that this is the right thread for this lol but is there a particular reason why Connie at the Columbus Zoo isn't housed with the rest of the females?
When I've asked volunteers about this I've received a "She's old and doesn't like babies" response which is odd to me given that to my knowledge she was an auntie to Bodhi and Beco?
Does anyone on here know anything that may have happened that would've caused the zoo to not want her around calves? I know her history with her own calves isn't pretty but all of that happened long before even Bodhi was born so I doubt that's why.
When I've asked volunteers about this I've received a "She's old and doesn't like babies" response which is odd to me given that to my knowledge she was an auntie to Bodhi and Beco?
Does anyone on here know anything that may have happened that would've caused the zoo to not want her around calves? I know her history with her own calves isn't pretty but all of that happened long before even Bodhi was born so I doubt that's why.
Yazziel
Well-Known Member
Connie is housed with Sunny and Rudy but not with Phoebe and Frankie. The reason I believe can be found in a news article I once read that Connie and Phoebe got into a fight over Connie trying to discipline a young Beco.
Yazziel
Well-Known Member
Elephants fight at Ohio zoo - UPI.com
Nevermind it was the other way around. Phoebe was disciplining Beco and Connie disapproved.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Oh I'd never thought of that! I assume the staff believe the issue to be calf related then, as all the elephants were housed together when Beco was fully seperated from Phoebe until Ellie was born in 2018.
Another potential reason is that the spot light is on the three cows and babies. We never hear much about Hank lately either.
Jonathan Petersson
Well-Known Member
@Frankie_number_1_fan I understand that this thread is based in speculation but please try to back some of your conjectures with real world evidence for at least situations we know information about. As I've mentioned multiple times in both the North American Asian Elephant Population Thread and Cincinnati Zoo News thread, Cincinnati does not plan on moving Kabir and Sanjay to another zoo or separating them from the herd. They get along very well together and there is no need for separation at this stage. Sabu's transfer to Columbus was not a breeding transfer but rather Cincinnati did not have the space for him anymore. Two years ago Mai Thai and Jati got into an aggressive confrontation and Mai Thai was injured. Because of this they have since been separated which has not left surplus space in the current barn hence Sabu's move. Him breeding with Sunny and Rudy is a bonus of the loan but by no means the cause of it. Mai Thai currently resides by herself or with Schottzie but she and Jati no longer share the same space together. Once Sabu returns after the new herd finishes quarantine, he will reside in the new complex as their is space for him in Elephant Trek where he will also be introduced to the Dublin individuals. Cincinnati is not rushing any introductions and the planning and considering being put into this project is far beyond what I have mentioned or any of us understand. The park knows what's best for their animals and planning accordingly. From my conservation with a keeper, introductions will be attempted between Mai Thai and the herd while Schottzie and Jati will live on their own with the occasional visit from Sabu as he is very close to Jati.
I was in Cincinnati this past week and Mai Thai and Jati were definitely together and as can be seen from social media posts, have been for some time. I'm not quite sure who you spoke with that stated Mai Thai and Jati had been permanently separated, but as someone with direct knowledge of their situation, I can assure you this is not the case. As for Sabu's move, it was done for both reasons, breeding and socialization/space. Columbus needed a natural breeding to better the chances of calves for Rudy and Sunny and Cincinnati needed space to allow for better social dynamics within the herd so they worked together with the SSP coordinator to see it through. Now I'm not saying anything that you've said is untrue, however, there's no merit to several statements you said you heard directly from a keeper...
Jonathan Petersson
Well-Known Member
Cincinnati is not planning on introducing all the cows into one big herd and Yasmin will remain the matriarch of her own social group. At one point the Cincinnati Zoo was discussing sending the three older gals to the Elephant Sanctuary in Tenenesse but these we ruled over with concerns from the elephant team.
I believe you are mixing up Schottzie and Jati. Mai Thai and Jati no longer share the same space which can be seen on social media posts that include photos and videos of Mai Thai in them. On your visit to Cincinnati you most likely saw Jati and Schottzie together or Mai Thai and Schottzie together. After the accident the zoo has decided to no longer house the two cows together which can be seen on any visit to the Cincinnati Zoo. All my information was sourced directly from a conservation with a zookeeper in the elephant team a couple weeks ago. I can not cite an oral conversation so I understand if there is skepticism. Feel free to provide examples proving my statement incorrect though!
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
It is incredibly unfortunate that plans to relocate at least Jati and Schottzie fell through. Don't get me wrong, I'm not TES' biggest fan mainly because I feel like it has become the "only" option for zoos when they want to move older animals, but with the age difference between Schottzie and Jati we are in a position for Jati to be completely by herself in about a decade or so (given that Schottzie is already over the median life expectancy for female asian elephants). This is completely omitting the fact that the zoo may soon be in a situation where the two are even just taking up space that could be taken up by more reproductive cows/calves. I can understand the keepers not wanting to stress them out with a move, nor do any facilities OTHER than TES come to mind that would be willing to take them, but I don't really see a sustainable future in Cinci for either girls given that they cannot be with over half the other elephants at the facility.
I can assure you I am not mixing the two up as Jati has a VERY distinct look when compared to the other cows but as I mentioned there were 3 elephants in the same yard... Nonetheless, here are just a couple videos all taken this year (one as recent as 9 days ago) showing that they are indeed still sharing the same space. Two of these are from the zoo themselves one from may for Mai Thai's 50th and the other from a cheetah enrichment session.
I would also like to mention you are completely contradicting what the zoo themselves have said is their plan for the herd in their news release for the arrival of the Dublin herd...
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Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
By the way, it's Jati has the red spots on her head that makes her look distinct. Mai Thai was the one getting bullied, not the evil jerk, so she'll probably fit in with the Dublin herd in a few months if the introduction goes well.