White Tigers

[Wisp O' Mist]

Moderator note: thread split from here - some animals are better off in private hands

You would not have so many cross bred mutant cross eyed white tigers (to be a wee bit extreme as an example) which have no conservation value and are kept merely as status symbols by idiots, if not for private holders in the US.

How are they superior to zoos in doing what they do-producing valueless mongrels?

Both AZA & EAZA zoos bred white tigers in the past and were paramount in bringing them to the western world in the first place. Let's not forget our history here.

 

[TinoPup]

Both AZA & EAZA zoos bred white tigers in the past and were paramount in bringing them to the western world in the first place. Let's not forget our history here.

And then they learned better and stopped.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

And then they learned better and stopped.

That is correct, although not the point I was trying to make.

 

[TinoPup]

That is correct, although not the point I was trying to make.

Because your point was wrong. When AZA zoos learned better, they stopped breeding them (and white lions) and now rarely hold them. Outside the AZA, however, they're common and frequently being bred.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Because your point was wrong. When AZA zoos learned better, they stopped breeding them (and white lions) and now rarely hold them. Outside the AZA, however, they're common and frequently being bred.

My point was not "wrong". If one wants to proclaim that zoos only engage in responsible breeding practices, while private individuals instead opt to throw caution to the wind, than white tigers are a really bad example to use for that argument.

The first white tiger imported to the US arrived at Smithsonian’s National Zoo on December 5, 1960. Her name was Mohini, she gave birth to her first litter on January 6, 1964. The cubs were sired by Samson, who was Mohini's half-brother... and uncle. Yes, at the same time.

Two of the three cubs produced died of feline distemper just over a year later in August 1965.

Mohini's second litter arrived on February 5, 1966. Samson was also the sire of this litter. One of the two cubs produced was stillborn. The surviving cub, Kesari, was later sent to the Cincinnati Zoo.

Mohini's third litter arrived on April 13, 1969. Unlike her previous two litters, these cubs were sired by Ramana - Mohini's son, the sole survivor of her first litter. One of the two cubs in this litter died at only two days old due to birth defects. (He starved to death. This cub had shortened tendons in his front legs, this prevented him from being able to knead.)

The surviving cub, Rewati, had crossed eyes, a crooked spine and shortened limbs. She was reportedly sterile, never successfully conceiving.

Mohini's fourth and final litter were born on March 8, 1970. This litter consisted of four cubs... three of which were accidentally killed by Mohini. She crushed them while struggling to give birth to a fifth (stillborn) cub. Ramana was also the sire of this particularly ill-fated litter. The surviving cub was named Moni, he died of a neurological disorder at only 16 months old. He also reportedly had a twisted neck.

Mohini's line survived via her first two children - Ramana and Kesari. They became the proud parents of a litter of four at Cincinnati Zoo on 20th June 1974.

Cincinnati Zoo would go on to become a powerhouse when it came to breeding white tigers.

As over 70 of them were eventually born there.

The AZA only mandated that it's member zoos stop breeding white tigers in 2011. Cincinnati's last white tiger only died in 2018.

White tigers were bred in accredited US zoos for 47 years. Inbreeding was present from the beginning and genetic defects were noticeable from the third litter bred.

 

[Great Argus]

My point was not "wrong". If one wants to proclaim that zoos only engage in responsible breeding practices, while private individuals instead opt to throw caution to the wind, than white tigers are a really bad example to use for that argument.

At least the AZA has quit breeding and holding them - the same cannot be said for private breeders.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

At least the AZA has quit breeding and holding them - the same cannot be said for private breeders.

Hopefully the Big Cat Public Safety Act will put a stop to the vast majority of white tiger breeding.

What You Need to Know About the Big Cat Public Safety Act | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

 

[Great Argus]

Hopefully the Big Cat Public Safety Act will put a stop to the vast majority of white tiger breeding.

What You Need to Know About the Big Cat Public Safety Act | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

My understanding is that it will have little effect on that. Most places that already had big cats qualified to still hold them and carry on business as usual.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

My understanding is that it will have little effect on that. Most places that already had big cats qualified to still hold them and carry on business as usual.

"Do not breed, acquire, or sell any big cat after the date of the enactment of the Act (December 20, 2022), regardless of whether the activity is intrastate, interstate, or international;"

From the link that I provided to help people understand the far reaching consequences of the Big Cat Public Safety Act being passed.

 

[TinoPup]

My point was not "wrong". If one wants to proclaim that zoos only engage in responsible breeding practices, while private individuals instead opt to throw caution to the wind, than white tigers are a really bad example to use for that argument.

The first white tiger imported to the US arrived at Smithsonian’s National Zoo on December 5, 1960. Her name was Mohini, she gave birth to her first litter on January 6, 1964. The cubs were sired by Samson, who was Mohini's half-brother... and uncle. Yes, at the same time.

Two of the three cubs produced died of feline distemper just over a year later in August 1965.

Mohini's second litter arrived on February 5, 1966. Samson was also the sire of this litter. One of the two cubs produced was stillborn. The surviving cub, Kesari, was later sent to the Cincinnati Zoo.

Mohini's third litter arrived on April 13, 1969. Unlike her previous two litters, these cubs were sired by Ramana - Mohini's son, the sole survivor of her first litter. One of the two cubs in this litter died at only two days old due to birth defects. (He starved to death. This cub had shortened tendons in his front legs, this prevented him from being able to knead.)

The surviving cub, Rewati, had crossed eyes, a crooked spine and shortened limbs. She was reportedly sterile, never successfully conceiving.

Mohini's fourth and final litter were born on March 8, 1970. This litter consisted of four cubs... three of which were accidentally killed by Mohini. She crushed them while struggling to give birth to a fifth (stillborn) cub. Ramana was also the sire of this particularly ill-fated litter. The surviving cub was named Moni, he died of a neurological disorder at only 16 months old. He also reportedly had a twisted neck.

Mohini's line survived via her first two children - Ramana and Kesari. They became the proud parents of a litter of four at Cincinnati Zoo on 20th June 1974.

Cincinnati Zoo would go on to become a powerhouse when it came to breeding white tigers.

As over 70 of them were eventually born there.

The AZA only mandated that it's member zoos stop breeding white tigers in 2011. Cincinnati's last white tiger only died in 2018.

White tigers were bred in accredited US zoos for 47 years. Inbreeding was present from the beginning and genetic defects were noticeable from the third litter bred.

You're still incorrect with your point. It wasn't known in the 1960s that breeding white tigers was bad, and breeding practices in general were quite different. Line breeding and inbreeding had to occur to get the recessive gene, and inbreeding isn't always a horrible thing (and is often done when breeding animals). Cubs of every species were frequently dying back then; take a look at cheetah birth statistics, for example.

And then they learned better and stopped. Responsible, AZA zoos stopped breeding them and publicizing them. You know who still does? Zoos outside the AZA, owned by private individuals. Tigers are a fantastic example of AZA vs private.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

You're still incorrect with your point. It wasn't known in the 1960s that breeding white tigers was bad, and breeding practices in general were quite different.

I'd make the argument that when cubs with serious defects were turning up in virtually every litter, that should've been a pretty big clue that maybe breeding white tigers wasn't a good idea. Zoo directors showed a serious lack of commonsense back then.

And then they learned better and stopped. Responsible, AZA zoos stopped breeding them and publicizing them.

Yeah, after nearly fifty years. I applaud that the AZA finally put their foot down and said no more white tigers, but my use of them as an example of AZA accredited zoos partaking in irresponsible breeding still stands.

The world isn't black and white. AZA zoos can and have irresponsibly bred animals in the past, private owners have responsibly bred animals in the past. And vice versa! It's all about shades of gray my friend.

You know who still does? Zoos outside the AZA, owned by private individuals.

Incorrect. The Big Cat Public Safety Act prohibits the breeding of privately owned big cats.

 

[Great Argus]

"Do not breed, acquire, or sell any big cat after the date of the enactment of the Act (December 20, 2022), regardless of whether the activity is intrastate, interstate, or international;"

From the link that I provided to help people understand the far reaching consequences of the Big Cat Public Safety Act being passed.

Yes, but per the actual text of the document, you're exempt if you have appropriate USDA license. Which many of the places already did. The law applies to Joe Public, not Joe Licensed Public. The latter may do as he pleases, so long as he stays within the rules.

 

[Sheather]

White tigers get such a bad rep in this community but they wouldn't be any more unhealthy than orange tigers if they were more regularly out-crossed in a responsible manner with unrelated tigers (because they have no conservation value, the fastest genetic rescue would be to breed a few male Siberians into the gene pool - they're all continental tigers anyway and it would not be affecting that tiger form's gene pool to only borrow from the male side.)

But AZA won't do that, which is just going to mean crappy little roadside zoos keep breeding white tigers to white tigers forever until they look like bulldogs, which is unfortunate, as a healthy white tiger is a beautiful animal.

I don't agree with the AZA phasing out white tigers if only on a financial level. It's an excellent attractant of visitors and subsequent income that can be used to care for all sorts of other animals with conservation value. A captive umbrella species if you will.

 

[TinoPup]

I'd make the argument that when cubs with serious defects were turning up in virtually every litter, that should've been a pretty big clue that maybe breeding white tigers wasn't a good idea. Zoo directors showed a serious lack of commonsense back then.



Yeah, after nearly fifty years. I applaud that the AZA finally put their foot down and said no more white tigers, but my use of them as an example of AZA accredited zoos partaking in irresponsible breeding still stands.

The world isn't black and white. AZA zoos can and have irresponsibly bred animals in the past, private owners have responsibly bred animals in the past. And vice versa! It's all about shades of gray my friend.



Incorrect. The Big Cat Public Safety Act prohibits the breeding of privately owned big cats.

And those litters were happening once every couple of years at best. Again, health problems at birth was not unusual in any species back them. You're overestimating what the knowledge at the time was.

It doesn't work as an example because they stopped doing it.

Re-read the act. Joe Smith can't keep a tiger in his backyard. Joe Smith can get a USDA license - pretty easy to do, given all of the awful places that have one - and keep a tiger in his backyard.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Yes, but per the actual text of the document, you're exempt if you have appropriate USDA license. Which many of the places already did. The law applies to Joe Public, not Joe Licensed Public. The latter may do as he pleases, so long as he stays within the rules.

And the incentive that most of those places had to overbreed in the first place was cub petting schemes and photo opts, which the act also bans.

 

[Great Argus]

And the incentive that most of those places had to overbreed in the first place was cub petting schemes and photo opts, which the act also bans.

Yes, but they're still going to breed to keep big cats in their hands. They don't want to lose them and have to reaquire them. There's a couple facilities that are still powerhouse breeding Panthera.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

And those litters were happening once every couple of years at best.

And yet Cincinnati Zoo still managed to breed 70 white tigers in the same timeframe.

Again, health problems at birth was not unusual in any species back them. You're overestimating what the knowledge at the time was.

I think you're not giving the zoos enough credit here, we wouldn't have most of the species that we do nowadays if the "codes" to breeding them successfully weren't "cracked".

It doesn't work as an example because they stopped doing it.

It's historical and meant to show that AZA zoos haven't always been saints when it comes to animal breeding.

Joe Smith can get a USDA license - pretty easy to do, given all of the awful places that have one - and keep a tiger in his backyard.

I never said that wasn't the case.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Yes, but they're still going to breed to keep big cats in their hands. They don't want to lose them and have to reaquire them.

Why though? Where's the monetary incentive? Another part of the act involves keeping the public fifteen feet back from big cat enclosures, so no offering "up close and personal" encounters for extra cash.

There's a couple facilities that are still powerhouse breeding Panthera.

Name them.

 

[TinoPup]

And yet Cincinnati Zoo still managed to breed 70 white tigers in the same timeframe.



I think you're not giving the zoos enough credit here, we wouldn't have most of the species that we do nowadays if the "codes" to breeding them successfully weren't "cracked".



It's historical and meant to show that AZA zoos haven't always been saints when it comes to animal breeding.



I never said that wasn't the case.

Do you even know what the statistic you're quoting includes? Is that 70 including stillbirths? 70 that survived 6 months, to adulthood?

I don't even know what to say to this, what an absurd statement.

You're vilifying for something that wasn't known at the time. The AZA didn't even exist in the 1960s. How about you look up what private zoos were doing in that same time period and compare?

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Do you even know what the statistic you're quoting includes? Is that 70 including stillbirths? 70 that survived 6 months, to adulthood?

Nope! How about you?

You're vilifying for something that wasn't known at the time. The AZA didn't even exist in the 1960s.

"In October 1924 the American Association of Zoological Parks and Aquariums was formed as an affiliate of the American Institute of Park Executives. In 1966, the American Association of Zoological Parks and Aquariums became a professional branch affiliate of the newly formed National Recreation and Park Association, which absorbed the American Institute of Park Executives.

In the fall of 1971, the American Association of Zoological Parks and Aquariums membership voted to become an independent association. On January 19, 1972, it was chartered as the American Association of Zoological Parks and Aquariums with its executive office located in Wheeling, West Virginia, within the Oglebay Park Good Zoo. In 1994, the shorter name American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) was adopted."

:Association of Zoos and Aquariums - Wikipedia