North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

[Hyak_II]

You do raise a completely valid point, elephant transports are no cheap feat, especially moving four animals, two of which are full-size adults, across the Atlantic ocean.

I will say though, and this is coming from someone who has worked/interned/volunteered at numerous different facilities, sometimes what occurs at a facility isn’t necessarily what’s best for the animals, and simply what’s best/easiest/cheapest for upper management. Not imply that this specifically is the situation here, with Cincinnati’s plan to integrate the two groups, but more broadly speaking. How that said, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is, at least to a degree, a bit of that factoring into things as well. Especially the whole feel good spin on Schottzie and Yasmin being related. Anyone who actually knows anything knows it’s purely a PR spin to impress the public, and nothing more.

Regardless of that though, between the new exhibit, the new animals, and overall general expenses, Cincinnati’s undoubtedly hemorrhaging money right now. Good thing they have a number of very generous donors and their little cash cow Fiona to help pick up the slack (I kid, I kid…mostly)

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Another potential reason is that the spot light is on the three cows and babies. We never hear much about Hank lately either.

I just now realized there was another reply to this topic! My apologies for the randomness of this given the ongoing Cinci discussion lol.

I find it incredibly unlikely that the reason why Connie is kept separate is because shes not appealing to the public. While CURRENTLY, with Sabu being fully introduced to the reproductive females, I can see why she'd be seperated for that reason. But she hasn't been kept with Phoebe, Rudy and Sunny as a group since the birth of Phoebe's previous calf before Frankie in 2018. Its definitely not unheard of for post-reproductive cows without any surviving calves to be a part of breeding herds, the zoo would have to be a horrible establishment to keep Connie away because shes not "marketable" (for lack of a better phrase).

The article linked discussed one incident over a decade ago that was apparently minor enough that the cows were placed back together shortly after, so I doubt that specific incident was the reason. It is possible that aggressive "disagreements" between Phoebe and Connie happened more frequently and eventually got to the point where the girls had to be kept seperated, but from what I understand these incidents usually stem from dominance struggles, and the zoo had no reported issues keeping all their elephants together for a considerable period of time back in 2018. While it COULD be calf centered, if Connie was having dominance issues with Phoebe then those problems likely would've risen again when they were housed together.

I feel like a more serious incident must have occured around Beco specifically for them to fully omit Connie from being involved in a natural herd setting. Given that she has had a history of being a good "auntie" to both Bodhi AND Beco I find it unlikely that she ever had issues with her behavior towards calves. Her having an issue with Phoebe, however, I can see. Phoebe has far more matriatchal experience, but Connie is over a decade older and is a very headstrong cow in her own right, so them both having "claim" to matriarch is plausible.

This is a weird thing to ramble about I know but it's been a thing on my mind for YEARS whenever I see Connie. Both her and the situation with Hank feel like an odd stain on Columbus' genuinely great elephant keeping practices.

Its a real shame Connie is unable to play a part in the breeding herd. Right now it's clear her purpose at the zoo is just as a long-term companion for Hank. My hope is after Connie passes (which is, if we're being realistic, likely in less than a decade) the zoo sends Hank to a facility like Denver where he can socialize but also not just blatantly take up space at a facility thay desperately needs a valuable, natural breeding bull (which sadly Hank is neither of).

 

[Jambo]

I just now realized there was another reply to this topic! My apologies for the randomness of this given the ongoing Cinci discussion lol.

I find it incredibly unlikely that the reason why Connie is kept separate is because shes not appealing to the public. While CURRENTLY, with Sabu being fully introduced to the reproductive females, I can see why she'd be seperated for that reason. But she hasn't been kept with Phoebe, Rudy and Sunny as a group since the birth of Phoebe's previous calf before Frankie in 2018. Its definitely not unheard of for post-reproductive cows without any surviving calves to be a part of breeding herds, the zoo would have to be a horrible establishment to keep Connie away because shes not "marketable" (for lack of a better phrase).

The article linked discussed one incident over a decade ago that was apparently minor enough that the cows were placed back together shortly after, so I doubt that specific incident was the reason. It is possible that aggressive "disagreements" between Phoebe and Connie happened more frequently and eventually got to the point where the girls had to be kept seperated, but from what I understand these incidents usually stem from dominance struggles, and the zoo had no reported issues keeping all their elephants together for a considerable period of time back in 2018. While it COULD be calf centered, if Connie was having dominance issues with Phoebe then those problems likely would've risen again when they were housed together.

I feel like a more serious incident must have occured around Beco specifically for them to fully omit Connie from being involved in a natural herd setting. Given that she has had a history of being a good "auntie" to both Bodhi AND Beco I find it unlikely that she ever had issues with her behavior towards calves. Her having an issue with Phoebe, however, I can see. Phoebe has far more matriatchal experience, but Connie is over a decade older and is a very headstrong cow in her own right, so them both having "claim" to matriarch is plausible.

This is a weird thing to ramble about I know but it's been a thing on my mind for YEARS whenever I see Connie. Both her and the situation with Hank feel like an odd stain on Columbus' genuinely great elephant keeping practices.

Its a real shame Connie is unable to play a part in the breeding herd. Right now it's clear her purpose at the zoo is just as a long-term companion for Hank. My hope is after Connie passes (which is, if we're being realistic, likely in less than a decade) the zoo sends Hank to a facility like Denver where he can socialize but also not just blatantly take up space at a facility thay desperately needs a valuable, natural breeding bull (which sadly Hank is neither of).

Absolutely nothing wrong with Connie spending time with Hank. Although its somewhat unnatural, both obviously benefit from the time they spend together and some bulls (like Hank) value socialisation a lot.

Once Connie does eventually pass, I would hope they wouldn't send Hank to another facility. He's already an older male and sending him to Denver would be a difficult move for him considering the time he's been at Colombus. He also spends a lot of time with Rudy and Sunny and it's important both females continue to socialise with a bull even after Sabu returns to Cincinnati.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Absolutely nothing wrong with Connie spending time with Hank. Although its somewhat unnatural, both obviously benefit from the time they spend together and some bulls (like Hank) value socialisation a lot.

Once Connie does eventually pass, I would hope they wouldn't send Hank to another facility. He's already an older male and sending him to Denver would be a difficult move for him considering the time he's been at Colombus. He also spends a lot of time with Rudy and Sunny and it's important both females continue to socialise with a bull even after Sabu returns to Cincinnati.

Oh my issue isn't the fact they spend time together! I think its great that they both have a constant form of socialization (even though Hank does get his time by himself as the zoo has shown, which is great too). I'm more concerned on the zoo's confusing lack of transparency in regards to Connie's odd separation from the breeding herd, especially given her proven history with calves and knowing she gets along fine with Rudy, Sunny and (as far as we know) Phoebe as well. The zoo doesn't "owe" the public anything of course, I just find it strange that there is seemingly no reason for her separation.

As for Hank, I know a move wouldn't be the greatest for him but I'm thinking about space and the future of breeding at Columbus. Assuming Sabu successfully has bred all three reproductive females, there could easily be three more elephants at the facility by 2026. If Columbus wants to continue their breeding program (which they will undoubtedly) it's fairly clear that a proven breeding bull needs to be brought in. Columbus does have the ability to house multiple bulls, but the fact is their current facility isn't massive. Simply, Hank is taking the place of a much more valuable bull, cow or calf. He isn't very genetically valuable, he's a behavioral nonbreeder and as far as can be assumed he isn't terrific around calves. Keeping him for AI long term isn't a sustainable decision given that Phoebe will likely only have one more calf and Rudy and Sunny aren't proven for AI either. After Connie passes, there is no reason to keep him outside of bull socialization with Frankie down the line. But even then, socialization with a proven breeding bull would be far more beneficial and the zoo knows that.

I know Hank is no spring chicken but he's not ancient either, and animals much older have transferred facilities without issue. I don't think Denver is the ONLY facility able to take him, it's just the first one that came to mind given Hank's "condition" as inheritly a lifelong bachelor.

Im not saying they should send him out immediately either. Unless Connie has some undisclosed medical condition, she's in fairly good shape other than well-managed arthritis so she could easily have another near decade in her. I think currently his value as a social companion to Connie, Rudy and Sunny outweighs his complete lack of value as a breeding bull, I'm just saying that in the coming years the zoo needs to seriously consider replacing him with a bull that can actually sustain their breeding herd.

 

[Jambo]

Oh my issue isn't the fact they spend time together! I think its great that they both have a constant form of socialization (even though Hank does get his time by himself as the zoo has shown, which is great too). I'm more concerned on the zoo's confusing lack of transparency in regards to Connie's odd separation from the breeding herd, especially given her proven history with calves and knowing she gets along fine with Rudy, Sunny and (as far as we know) Phoebe as well. The zoo doesn't "owe" the public anything of course, I just find it strange that there is seemingly no reason for her separation.

As for Hank, I know a move wouldn't be the greatest for him but I'm thinking about space and the future of breeding at Columbus. Assuming Sabu successfully has bred all three reproductive females, there could easily be three more elephants at the facility by 2026. If Columbus wants to continue their breeding program (which they will undoubtedly) it's fairly clear that a proven breeding bull needs to be brought in. Columbus does have the ability to house multiple bulls, but the fact is their current facility isn't massive. Simply, Hank is taking the place of a much more valuable bull, cow or calf. He isn't very genetically valuable, he's a behavioral nonbreeder and as far as can be assumed he isn't terrific around calves. Keeping him for AI long term isn't a sustainable decision given that Phoebe will likely only have one more calf and Rudy and Sunny aren't proven for AI either. After Connie passes, there is no reason to keep him outside of bull socialization with Frankie down the line. But even then, socialization with a proven breeding bull would be far more beneficial and the zoo knows that.

I know Hank is no spring chicken but he's not ancient either, and animals much older have transferred facilities without issue. I don't think Denver is the ONLY facility able to take him, it's just the first one that came to mind given Hank's "condition" as inheritly a lifelong bachelor.

Im not saying they should send him out immediately either. Unless Connie has some undisclosed medical condition, she's in fairly good shape other than well-managed arthritis so she could easily have another near decade in her. I think currently his value as a social companion to Connie, Rudy and Sunny outweighs his complete lack of value as a breeding bull, I'm just saying that in the coming years the zoo needs to seriously consider replacing him with a bull that can actually sustain their breeding herd.

I think it's clear that Connie and Phoebe enjoy their time in their own social groupings. No need to put elephants together that don't necessarily get along; especially with other groupings being available that will benefit from more.

Phoebe spends most of her time either with just little Frankie or with Rudy and Sunny as well. It seems to me that the social groupings remain very much the same, but with Rudy and Sunny rotating between the three different groupings.

Re. retaining Hank, I also think it's important to recognise the fact that not many facilities would be open to obtaining Hank being an older, non breeding bull. In a decades time, he would be in his mid 40's, and by that time would also be nearing twilight years himself.

Replacing Hank long term will be the goal obviously; it's been good to see Colombus taking the iniative and offering to hold Sabu in the meantime. I don't see why another bull can't be obtained in say five years or so once the females will be ready to conceive again (following any Sabu sired calves). Columbus have managed multiple bulls in the past.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Im not caught up on the fact that Phoebe and Connie aren't together, its obviously not the end of the world, but WHY they aren't together. There has been zero indication that the two cows don't get along other than sprinkles from a conflict thay occurred over a decade ago. Its just weird considering Connie has played an auntie roll in the past and as far as we know gets along with the other females. And furthermore the zoo just feels like they're not being very transparent about it at all. In many other separation cases, with female elephants especially, zoos tend to be very honest about WHY they can't be together. Its just an incredibly odd aspect of the elephant program to be secretive about imo, but I digress. Im beginning to sound like a broken record lol so I'll leave it at this, if anyone is able to find out the real reason why Connie isn't with the rest of the breeding herd I'd be very interested to know !

Back to Hank, you make a good point on Columbus just not having a facility to send him to, I just worry about the space in Columbus. They have one relatively expansive outdoor yard but additionally two incredibly small others that have no business holding ONE elephant let alone multiple (as they usually do). Their community room indoors is fairly large and then they obviously have indoor behind-the-scenes stalls. While they can house multiple bulls as we've seen, assuming multiple females have calves in a few years AND they obtain a breeding bull within the next five years, I just don't see how both a growing herd can be sustained in addition to Hank's social grouping needs. This is also completely omitting the fact that Frankie will be seperated from Phoebe by the end of the decade and in addition to his own socialization time he will spend time on his own as Hank does. Thats three or four (if you count a new potential bull) groupings by 2030 (and Frankie's separation may even come earlier). I'm unsure Columbus has the ability to house that many groups going forward, and unless they plan to expand the only really sustainable plan is to send Hank out at some point.

 

[Jambo]

Im not caught up on the fact that Phoebe and Connie aren't together, its obviously not the end of the world, but WHY they aren't together. There has been zero indication that the two cows don't get along other than sprinkles from a conflict thay occurred over a decade ago. Its just weird considering Connie has played an auntie roll in the past and as far as we know gets along with the other females. And furthermore the zoo just feels like they're not being very transparent about it at all. In many other separation cases, with female elephants especially, zoos tend to be very honest about WHY they can't be together. Its just an incredibly odd aspect of the elephant program to be secretive about imo, but I digress. Im beginning to sound like a broken record lol so I'll leave it at this, if anyone is able to find out the real reason why Connie isn't with the rest of the breeding herd I'd be very interested to know !

Back to Hank, you make a good point on Columbus just not having a facility to send him to, I just worry about the space in Columbus. They have one relatively expansive outdoor yard but additionally two incredibly small others that have no business holding ONE elephant let alone multiple (as they usually do). Their community room indoors is fairly large and then they obviously have indoor behind-the-scenes stalls. While they can house multiple bulls as we've seen, assuming multiple females have calves in a few years AND they obtain a breeding bull within the next five years, I just don't see how both a growing herd can be sustained in addition to Hank's social grouping needs. This is also completely omitting the fact that Frankie will be seperated from Phoebe by the end of the decade and in addition to his own socialization time he will spend time on his own as Hank does. Thats three or four (if you count a new potential bull) groupings by 2030 (and Frankie's separation may even come earlier). I'm unsure Columbus has the ability to house that many groups going forward, and unless they plan to expand the only really sustainable plan is to send Hank out at some point.

I think it's obvious that they obviously don't get along well to the point where the elephants prefer other social groupings better, and so this is therefore being accommodated. Keep in mind Rudy and Sunny particularly are only recent arrivals, meaning it was probably essential Connie and Phoebe were grouped together so that Phoebe wasn't being kept by herself and to provide her with socialisation and herd support with her calves. Now that Rudy and Sunny have arrived, there's less need to group those two elephants together anymore, at least as much as before.

Frankie will probably end up in a bachelor facility (like Denver). He's not a valuable male by any means, and there's no need to retain him at Columbus long term.

Until we hear of pregnancy announcements it's hard to predict where Columbus will be at in a decades time. They could have the very same six elephants (minus Sabu) that they have now. As far as I know, Phoebe hasn't been introduced to Sabu yet, and both Rudy and Sunny who haven't conceived yet (Rudy also being 21, at the absolute top end of her reproductive window). Best case scenario, we do have three calves and by the time those calves are reaching adulthood Columbus will be in the right place to make further decisions from there, with Connie and Hank in their twilight years as well.

 

[Yazziel]

Until we hear of pregnancy announcements it's hard to predict where Columbus will be at in a decades time. They could have the very same six elephants (minus Sabu) that they have now. As far as I know, Phoebe hasn't been introduced to Sabu yet, and both Rudy and Sunny who haven't conceived yet (Rudy also being 21, at the absolute top end of her reproductive window). Best case scenario, we do have three calves and by the time those calves are reaching adulthood Columbus will be in the right place to make further decisions from there, with Connie and Hank in their twilight years as well.

Sabu has been introduced to Phoebe and Frankie. Back in August.

Look at this post on Facebook To close out Asian Elephant... - Columbus Zoo and Aquarium

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I think it's obvious that they obviously don't get along well to the point where the elephants prefer other social groupings better, and so this is therefore being accommodated. Keep in mind Rudy and Sunny particularly are only recent arrivals, meaning it was probably essential Connie and Phoebe were grouped together so that Phoebe wasn't being kept by herself and to provide her with socialisation and herd support with her calves. Now that Rudy and Sunny have arrived, there's less need to group those two elephants together anymore, at least as much as before.

Frankie will probably end up in a bachelor facility (like Denver). He's not a valuable male by any means, and there's no need to retain him at Columbus long term.

Until we hear of pregnancy announcements it's hard to predict where Columbus will be at in a decades time. They could have the very same six elephants (minus Sabu) that they have now. As far as I know, Phoebe hasn't been introduced to Sabu yet, and both Rudy and Sunny who haven't conceived yet (Rudy also being 21, at the absolute top end of her reproductive window). Best case scenario, we do have three calves and by the time those calves are reaching adulthood Columbus will be in the right place to make further decisions from there, with Connie and Hank in their twilight years as well.

Someone else beat me to it but Sabu has been introduced to Phoebe and Frankie for over three months now! Not a massive breeding window but certainly a window nevertheless. I'm not super set on Rudy being pregnant, I'm not even sure if Sabu has successfully bred her at all. Ive only received conformation on Sunny and of course that's no guarantee she's expecting. And since Rudy is at the very end of her breeding window she may never have calves, which would be such a disappointment for Columbus' breeding program as a whole given that the POINT of the girls' import was to expand Columbus' herd into a more natural setting...
But, as Columbus historically has only announced pregnancies within a few months of their cows giving birth, we won't know anything about the success of Sabu until this time next year at the earliest.

Frankie likely won't be going anywhere before the end of the decade. Other than Denver (which has a large herd currently), there's no other facility that I can think of that would be willing to take a young, developing, genetically unvaluable bull. Like many young bulls, he'll likely stick around his birth zoo until a "spot" opens up, which unless another bachalor facility arises, or Denver moves out some males, I can't see happening for a while.
Now, if Columbus plans to keep Hank, he has a history of socializing with a rowdy young bull, so he'd be an obvious choice for Frankie's socialization in the coming years, and I think Hank WOULD benefit from the company of a younger animal again.

Genuinely, if Rudy and Sunny don't have calves from Sabu, Columbus needs to bring in a bull as soon as possible. It would probably be too late for Rudy at that point sadly but then the goal needs to be establishing Sunny as the next primary breeding female.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

For me I would have preferred Sabu move to Columbus after the death of Coco giving Phoebe the opportunity to breed naturally much earlier and at the same time with the arrival Rudy and Sundara it would allow them to breed much earlier as well

 

[Jambo]

For me I would have preferred Sabu move to Columbus after the death of Coco giving Phoebe the opportunity to breed naturally much earlier and at the same time with the arrival Rudy and Sundara it would allow them to breed much earlier as well

At the time it wasn't known Hank wasn't capable of natural breeding; and there was still hope with Sabu and Jati.

In hindsight, yes it would've been a much better move for both facilities and we can only imagine how much more successful Columbus's breeding program would've been compared to what it is today.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

At the time it wasn't known Hank wasn't capable of natural breeding; and there was still hope with Sabu and Jati.

In hindsight, yes it would've been a much better move for both facilities and we can only imagine how much more successful Columbus's breeding program would've been compared to what it is today.

All the same, Hank was at Columbus for the better part of a DECADE before AI was successful with Phoebe, that span is far too long when the zoo knew full well that Sunny and Rudy were (and still are) in crucial years for first pregnancy.

Cinci too should've realized a long time ago that Jati was not going to conceive again. By the time Hank was clearly not exhibiting natural breeding behavior, Jati was well out of the probable window for another calf.

Of course highlight is 20/20 as they say, but it doesn't change the fact that Columbus basically shot themselves in the foot by attempting to rely on a behavioral nonbreeder and an unproven and very young bull for YEARS when an obvious candidate to replace Coco was less than a day's transfer away.

Im no expert on the AZA studbook or the dispersion of captive elephant genetics, but its honestly baffling seeing so many facilities' programs suffering because of fairly easy and frankly obvious transfers. Its an incredible shame knowing that Columbus may have completely sacrificed one or even two reproductive females. Saint Louis' current bull situation also rings a familiar bell with their insistence to keep Raja...

 

[Jambo]

All the same, Hank was at Columbus for the better part of a DECADE before AI was successful with Phoebe, that span is far too long when the zoo knew full well that Sunny and Rudy were (and still are) in crucial years for first pregnancy.

Cinci too should've realized a long time ago that Jati was not going to conceive again. By the time Hank was clearly not exhibiting natural breeding behavior, Jati was well out of the probable window for another calf.

Of course highlight is 20/20 as they say, but it doesn't change the fact that Columbus basically shot themselves in the foot by attempting to rely on a behavioral nonbreeder and an unproven and very young bull for YEARS when an obvious candidate to replace Coco was less than a day's transfer away.

Im no expert on the AZA studbook or the dispersion of captive elephant genetics, but its honestly baffling seeing so many facilities' programs suffering because of fairly easy and frankly obvious transfers. Its an incredible shame knowing that Columbus may have completely sacrificed one or even two reproductive females. Saint Louis' current bull situation also rings a familiar bell with their insistence to keep Raja...

Although it's not directly ever been mentioned publicly (at least to my knowledge), it's likely Hank was the father of Ellie too.

Of course although it's easier to look back now and determine where the AZA may have gone wrong, back then it would've a task. Moves can be expensive, and of course a suitable location would've needed to have been found and a suitable bull in return. There's so many factors that can also contribute to such decisions (such as social bonds, health ect.). So whilst it is obvious Cincy and Columbus should've came to their senses a little earlier; I can't think of much they otherwise could've done to benefit their own programs. Keep in mind Cincy were still trying to breed from Jati, even with minimal hope, she was still a very valuable female.

On Rudy and Sunny; neither are really valuable anyways, same goes for Phoebe and Hank. So I guess it's not a huge shame if Rudy or Sunny don't end up breeding, it's just detrimental to Columbus's overall breeding program. Thinking realistically, Phoebe will probably only breed once more following Frankie. But if Rudy and Sunny fail to conceive before Sabu returns to Cincy, this is the right time to reconsider their overall program.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Although it's not directly ever been mentioned publicly (at least to my knowledge), it's likely Hank was the father of Ellie too.

Of course although it's easier to look back now and determine where the AZA may have gone wrong, back then it would've a task. Moves can be expensive, and of course a suitable location would've needed to have been found and a suitable bull in return. There's so many factors that can also contribute to such decisions (such as social bonds, health ect.). So whilst it is obvious Cincy and Columbus should've came to their senses a little earlier; I can't think of much they otherwise could've done to benefit their own programs. Keep in mind Cincy were still trying to breed from Jati, even with minimal hope, she was still a very valuable female.

On Rudy and Sunny; neither are really valuable anyways, same goes for Phoebe and Hank. So I guess it's not a huge shame if Rudy or Sunny don't end up breeding, it's just detrimental to Columbus's overall breeding program. Thinking realistically, Phoebe will probably only breed once more following Frankie. But if Rudy and Sunny fail to conceive before Sabu returns to Cincy, this is the right time to reconsider their overall program.

I believe it was between Hank and Samson for Ellie's father. So neither option was really...the best genetically, but I would be inclined to say that it is quite likely that Hank ended up winning out so they inseminated Phoebe with ONLY Hank's sperm for Frankie. It makes sense too, AI is expensive already, so using sperm from a bull already in-house is not only easier but cheaper.

Its definitely easy to look back and criticize, especially now that we're at a point where Columbus' breeding program may be at it's largest roadblock since Coco's death. I will admit, I never even considered Sabu as a potential bull in Columbus until he was moved, but looking back it seems like such an obvious move; and Im sure the zoos themselves likely share the sentiment to a degree!

That being said, even if it was considered Im sure Cincinati would be more inclined to try and get calves out of a pairing that is likely the most genetically valuable in the continent. Any calves of theirs would be worth 10x more than any born in Columbus. Its a massive shame their only offspring died, he was at Columbus too iirc and he would've been a perfect candidate for a breeding bull by now. Ugh stupid EEHV!

As for Rudy and Sunny, population-wise yeah its not a massive loss if they never have calves. Their half siblings and cousins dominate a LOT of the breeding population in NA, even WITH Sabu or another valuable bull's genes; any male calves of theirs would likely see a similar fate to Bodhi in Denver: with a valuable father but an overrepresented mother, not enough to earn a spot as a full-time breeding bull at a facility.
It would be a huge loss to Columbus if neither cows reproduced though. Phoebe still has potentially one more calf in her, and given her track record that one would likely be male, but in five years time Columbus could very well have four non-reproductive cows and two completely unvaluable bulls on their hands.

I don't mean to be a downer though. I think there's genuine hope for Sunny and for Phoebe to have another calf as well. Fingers crossed both are female or at LEAST Phoebe's is female if that happens. Obviously the hope is for Rudy too but I wouldn't bet on her getting pregnant just given her personality and age.

 

[Yassa]

All the same, Hank was at Columbus for the better part of a DECADE before AI was successful with Phoebe, that span is far too long when the zoo knew full well that Sunny and Rudy were (and still are) in crucial years for first pregnancy.

Cinci too should've realized a long time ago that Jati was not going to conceive again. By the time Hank was clearly not exhibiting natural breeding behavior, Jati was well out of the probable window for another calf.

Of course highlight is 20/20 as they say, but it doesn't change the fact that Columbus basically shot themselves in the foot by attempting to rely on a behavioral nonbreeder and an unproven and very young bull for YEARS when an obvious candidate to replace Coco was less than a day's transfer away.

Im no expert on the AZA studbook or the dispersion of captive elephant genetics, but its honestly baffling seeing so many facilities' programs suffering because of fairly easy and frankly obvious transfers. Its an incredible shame knowing that Columbus may have completely sacrificed one or even two reproductive females. Saint Louis' current bull situation also rings a familiar bell with their insistence to keep Raja...

I totally agree with this post. There was so much mismanangement in the Asian elephant SSP that it`s hard to believe that the people making these decisions actually WANT asian elephants to persist in US zoos.

Cincinnatti made a huge mistake in 1998 when they sent Sabu away and only got him back i 2007. That`s most likely what cost Jathi the chance of having more calves and building up her own matriline; the gap between her first calf in 1998 and the possibility to concieve again in 2007 was just too big. Some females do get pregnant again after such long gaps, but not all. And later they kept him although it was pretty clear that Jathi would not not breed again.
Columbus made a huge mistake of not getting another bull much earlier to allow Phebe (and later Sunny and Rudy) to concieve naturally; and now it may very well be too late for Rudy. I disagree that it wouldn`t be that bad if neither of them breed. It`s right that they have many relatives, BUT most of them these are not part of the zoo population and it is unsure how many offspring they will have at White Oak, and if any of them will ever be relocated to an AZA zoo. And more importantly, every female asian elephant that is fertile is hugely important for the SSP since there are so very few, and still some of them don`t get the possibility to breed regularly. Just look at the situation in St. Louis, which has three young females in their prime but keeping their father seems more important to the zoo then breeding from the young girls. Yeah. The mismamangement is not just in the past, it`s far from over. Sadly.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I totally agree with this post. There was so much mismanangement in the Asian elephant SSP that it`s hard to believe that the people making these decisions actually WANT asian elephants to persist in US zoos.

Cincinnatti made a huge mistake in 1998 when they sent Sabu away and only got him back i 2007. That`s most likely what cost Jathi the chance of having more calves and building up her own matriline; the gap between her first calf in 1998 and the possibility to concieve again in 2007 was just too big. Some females do get pregnant again after such long gaps, but not all. And later they kept him although it was pretty clear that Jathi would not not breed again.
Columbus made a huge mistake of not getting another bull much earlier to allow Phebe (and later Sunny and Rudy) to concieve naturally; and now it may very well be too late for Rudy. I disagree that it wouldn`t be that bad if neither of them breed. It`s right that they have many relatives, BUT most of them these are not part of the zoo population and it is unsure how many offspring they will have at White Oak, and if any of them will ever be relocated to an AZA zoo. And more importantly, every female asian elephant that is fertile is hugely important for the SSP since there are so very few, and still some of them don`t get the possibility to breed regularly. Just look at the situation in St. Louis, which has three young females in their prime but keeping their father seems more important to the zoo then breeding from the young girls. Yeah. The mismamangement is not just in the past, it`s far from over. Sadly.

The complete mismanagement from Columbus and Cincinati especially in the past few decades has been almost astonishing. I don't pretend to be an expert on the AZA studbook, but I feel anyone with sense could see within a few years that Hank wasn't going to work as a natural breeding bull in Cbus, AND that waiting for Beco to become proven would not only take too much time, but also be fully impractical for Phoebe's reproductive future. The fact that it took over a decade for Columbus to bring in a natural breeding bull is, to be frank, ridiculous.

Sabu is one of several very underutilized but valuable bulls in NA...Miami ring a bell? Sabu should've had easily half a dozen calves running around by now. I will say though, it is likely a slight blessing in disguise that Jati didn't have multiple calves. Cinci's facility is TINY for four elephants, let alone a growing matriline. Of course loosing Jati's valuable genes is a massive loss, but I shudder to think of what fate couldve befallen the calves if they got underfoot of one of Jati's aggressive episodes...

Out of curiosity I went and poked around a few different "well represented" lines in NA and two of the major ones, Vance and Charlie, hardly have any breeding descendants at all. Charlie (Rudy and Sunny's father) has only a handful of living calves and of those, only one is actively reproducing (Doc in Syracuse). Rudy and Sunny are the only other two from that live in an AZA zoo. The rest are at Ringling (which, if Im not mistaken, likely will not continue their elephant breeding program going forward) and White Oak (which also isn't confirmed for breeding yet since they only have two females within a reproductive window).

Vance also sired over a dozen calves, but only four ever had calves of their own and only three of those four are still living. Tommy at Endangered Ark with his few young offspring, Hank in Columbus with his son Frankie, Targa's line in Syracuse and the now deceased Shirley's daughters at White Oak.
Compared to, say, the infamous Motek/Warda line these animals are much, much more valuable than given credit for. I feel that a lot of people (myself included, I will admit) seem to equate "well represented" with "unvaluable" when in several cases many individuals in well represented lines are post reproductive or not in a breeding situation.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Just look at the situation in St. Louis, which has three young females in their prime but keeping their father seems more important to the zoo then breeding from the young girls. Yeah. The mismamangement is not just in the past, it`s far from over. Sadly.

Discussing this separately so I don't sound like Im writing an essay lol-
Whats happening with the elephant program in St Louis is so frustrating. I have no idea how the AZA and the SSP are allowing the facility to let three valuable reproductive females go to waste because of sentimental value to a bull born over three decades ago. This is beyond insane.
If St Louis values Raja over the captive population then those three girls need to be sent out to somewhere that will actually utilize them. I do not know how much longer the NA population can be sustained with so many awful decisions being made.
I hope St Louis considers something soon given that they've lost two elephants in a short interval this year...

 

[E Maximus]

Out of curiosity I went and poked around a few different "well represented" lines in NA and two of the major ones, Vance and Charlie, hardly have any breeding descendants at all. Charlie (Rudy and Sunny's father) has only a handful of living calves and of those, only one is actively reproducing (Doc in Syracuse). Rudy and Sunny are the only other two from that live in an AZA zoo. The rest are at Ringling (which, if Im not mistaken, likely will not continue their elephant breeding program going forward) and White Oak (which also isn't confirmed for breeding yet since they only have two females within a reproductive window).

White Oak I feel is definitely a confirmed breeder for the program going forward. As you'll find in my population list they have 2 confirmed calves on the ground since they moved their herd in (don't quote me) 2020 and I'm sure have several more on the way.

Spoiler: White Oak Calves

0.1 Masala (Casey × Mable) 2021.08.25

0.1 Tikka (Casey × Aree) 2022.06.14

They also have way more than two females within a reproductive window. As of my last update, their population consisted of 1.14 individuals. Of the 14 females, 7 of them are all 26 and under and have either had a calf/pregnancy in the last 10 years or just reached reproductive age. (See the green below) Even if you take Sara and Asha from the equation as many will disqualify them as first-time mothers because of their age that still gives White Oak a sizable breeding herd of 5 cows all under 30.

Spoiler: White Oak Population as of January 2023

White Oak Conservation Center - Yulee, Florida, United States

1.0 Casey (WILD × WILD) 1971.00.00

0.1 Tonka (Hugo or Vance × Minyak) 1983.08.23 (40) 0 Calves

0.1 Luna (Hugo or Vance × Josky) 1984.01.01 (39) 0 Calves

0.1 Juliette (Pete × Icky) 1992.12.30 (31) 0 Calves

0.1 Bonnie (Vance × Sid) 1994.10.29 (29) 1 calf in 2009

0.1 Kelly Ann (Vance × Sally) 1996.01.01 (27) 0 Calves

0.1 Angelica (Charlie × Icky) 1997.06.23 (26) 1 Calf in 2013

0.1 Sara (Charlie × Icky) 2001.04.16 (22) 0 Calves

0.1 Asha (Charlie × Alana) 2002.03.05 (21) 0 Calves

0.1 Aree (Charlie × Mala) 2005.04.21 (18) 1 Calf in 2022

0.1 Mable (Romeo × Shirley) 2006.04.06 (17) 1 Calf in 2021

0.1 April (Charlie × Alana) 2010.04.03 (13) 0 Calves

0.1 Piper (Romeo × Shirley) 2012.08.13 (11) 0 Calves

0.1 Masala (Casey × Mable) 2021.08.25

0.1 Tikka (Casey × Aree) 2022.06.14

Total: 1.14.0 (15)

Now don't get me wrong there's still a ton of mismanagement when its comes to the program as a whole but White Oak just came onto the scene with the acquisition of the Ringling Herd and just moved their herd so you've got to give them time to get it going. They are completely different than Ringling was and are managing the herd in an arguably much more natural setting so to speak so they should have no problem boosting the regions success.

 

[Jambo]

The complete mismanagement from Columbus and Cincinati especially in the past few decades has been almost astonishing. I don't pretend to be an expert on the AZA studbook, but I feel anyone with sense could see within a few years that Hank wasn't going to work as a natural breeding bull in Cbus, AND that waiting for Beco to become proven would not only take too much time, but also be fully impractical for Phoebe's reproductive future. The fact that it took over a decade for Columbus to bring in a natural breeding bull is, to be frank, ridiculous.

Sabu is one of several very underutilized but valuable bulls in NA...Miami ring a bell? Sabu should've had easily half a dozen calves running around by now. I will say though, it is likely a slight blessing in disguise that Jati didn't have multiple calves. Cinci's facility is TINY for four elephants, let alone a growing matriline. Of course loosing Jati's valuable genes is a massive loss, but I shudder to think of what fate couldve befallen the calves if they got underfoot of one of Jati's aggressive episodes...

Out of curiosity I went and poked around a few different "well represented" lines in NA and two of the major ones, Vance and Charlie, hardly have any breeding descendants at all. Charlie (Rudy and Sunny's father) has only a handful of living calves and of those, only one is actively reproducing (Doc in Syracuse). Rudy and Sunny are the only other two from that live in an AZA zoo. The rest are at Ringling (which, if Im not mistaken, likely will not continue their elephant breeding program going forward) and White Oak (which also isn't confirmed for breeding yet since they only have two females within a reproductive window).

Vance also sired over a dozen calves, but only four ever had calves of their own and only three of those four are still living. Tommy at Endangered Ark with his few young offspring, Hank in Columbus with his son Frankie, Targa's line in Syracuse and the now deceased Shirley's daughters at White Oak.
Compared to, say, the infamous Motek/Warda line these animals are much, much more valuable than given credit for. I feel that a lot of people (myself included, I will admit) seem to equate "well represented" with "unvaluable" when in several cases many individuals in well represented lines are post reproductive or not in a breeding situation.

I think it's important to note that they are labelled as 'recommendations' for a reason. Zoos aren't always bound to follow the recommendations and I know of many instances when zoos have sat on recommendations or even gone against them. Unfortunately the SSP cannot do much in that situation. I'm not saying this is the case all the time but certainly has to be taken into consideration. Imo the SSP has made some questionable moves in the last decade but I wouldn't point all of them down to 'mismanagement'.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

White Oak I feel is definitely a confirmed breeder for the program going forward. As you'll find in my population list they have 2 confirmed calves on the ground since they moved their herd in (don't quote me) 2020 and I'm sure have several more on the way.

Spoiler: White Oak Calves

0.1 Masala (Casey × Mable) 2021.08.25

0.1 Tikka (Casey × Aree) 2022.06.14

They also have way more than two females within a reproductive window. As of my last update, their population consisted of 1.14 individuals. Of the 14 females, 7 of them are all 26 and under and have either had a calf/pregnancy in the last 10 years or just reached reproductive age. (See the green below) Even if you take Sara and Asha from the equation as many will disqualify them as first-time mothers because of their age that still gives White Oak a sizable breeding herd.

Spoiler: White Oak Population as of January 2023

White Oak Conservation Center - Yulee, Florida, United States

1.0 Casey (WILD × WILD) 1971.00.00

0.1 Tonka (Hugo or Vance × Minyak) 1983.08.23 (40) 0 Calves

0.1 Luna (Hugo or Vance × Josky) 1984.01.01 (39) 0 Calves

0.1 Juliette (Pete × Icky) 1992.12.30 (31) 0 Calves

0.1 Bonnie (Vance × Sid) 1994.10.29 (29) 1 calf in 2009

0.1 Kelly Ann (Vance × Sally) 1996.01.01 (27) 0 Calves

0.1 Angelica (Charlie × Icky) 1997.06.23 (26) 1 Calf in 2013

0.1 Sara (Charlie × Icky) 2001.04.16 (22) 0 Calves

0.1 Asha (Charlie × Alana) 2002.03.05 (21) 0 Calves

0.1 Aree (Charlie × Mala) 2005.04.21 (18) 1 Calf in 2022

0.1 Mable (Romeo × Shirley) 2006.04.06 (17) 1 Calf in 2021

0.1 April (Charlie × Alana) 2010.04.03 (13) 0 Calves

0.1 Piper (Romeo × Shirley) 2012.08.13 (11) 0 Calves

0.1 Masala (Casey × Mable) 2021.08.25

0.1 Tikka (Casey × Aree) 2022.06.14

Total: 1.14.0 (15)

Now don't get me wrong there's still a ton of mismanagement when its comes to the program as a whole but White Oak just came onto the scene with the acquisition of the Ringling Herd and just moved their herd so you've got to give them time to get it going. They are completely different than Ringling was and are managing the herd in an arguably much more natural setting so to speak so they should have no problem boosting the regions success.

I had no idea White Oak had calves! All the info in my previous post came from Elephant.se, which clearly isn't up to date on the White Oak/Ringing transfers. They still had Aree listed at Ringling! The site also neglected to include Angelina's previous calf. Not altogether surprising considering how Ringling has pretty much disappeared from social media as a whole. Thank you for the correction!
Its great that they have all(?) of Ringling's reproductive girls though so they're not just wasting at Ringling.

I definitely think we can't discount White Oak just yet, that was 100% not the point of my previous post. My intent was to say that several of the well represented lines aren't as unvaluable as people paint them to be. I think we'll see many more calves from White Oak in a much more responsibility managed fashion than Ringling for sure.