Enclosure space is overrated compared to quality of space

[birdsandbats]

Then the exhibit is obviously too small, because not every hoofstock paddocks is eroded to nothing.

If that's the case then basically all hoofstock are wildly impractical to keep in a captive setting.

 

[La Cucaracha]

So space is overrated, and a substantial number of exhibits in reputable zoos are "obviously too small"? I don't want to begin on the mental gymnastics of making both of these arguments.

Now you're just being obtuse to join your friends.

Yes, I think a substantial number of hoofstock exhibits in reputable zoos are outdated and inadequate. It doesn't mean they need to be the San Diego Safari Park.

 

[Great Argus]

Then the exhibit is obviously too small, because not every hoofstock paddocks is eroded to nothing. It honestly makes me sad to see beef cattle living better lives.

Funny, now we've gone back to "space does matter" - one big circle and nowhere further on the argument apparently.
And sometimes the efforts of getting a maintaining a grassy paddock make it worse for the animals, so there's that too.

 

[La Cucaracha]

If that's the case then basically all hoofstock are wildly impractical to keep in a captive setting.

That's just untrue.

 

[birdsandbats]

That's just untrue.

How? If keeping hoofstock on eroded soil is bad husbandry, then hoofstock have wildly impractical space requirements. There's no way you could ever maintain vegetation on a small paddock.

Funny, now we've gone back to "space does matter" - one big circle and nowhere further on the argument apparently.
And sometimes the efforts of getting a maintaining a grassy paddock make it worse for the animals, so there's that too.

It's almost like it's time to call a troll a troll.

 

[La Cucaracha]

I spend a lot of time obsessing over pasture and grass seed. I was an ag student before I was an architecture student.
Believe it or not, it was seeing the paddocks at Denver Zoo and comparing them to the pastures near my college that made me want that for wild ungulates in captivity.
I just don't think it needs to be thousands or even dozens of acres if planned correctly. And I partly say that because it shouldn't be a daunting change.
Why that's hypocritical with Hediger's philosophy or trolling is beyond me.

 

[Great Argus]

I spend a lot of time obsessing over pasture and grass seed. I was an ag student before I was an architecture student.
Believe it or not, it was seeing the paddocks at Denver Zoo and comparing them to the pastures near my college that made me want that for wild ungulates in captivity.

Then you should also have an understanding of the challenges with keeping grass stable and growing when constantly grazed by hoofstock.

I just don't think it needs to be thousands or even dozens of acres if planned correctly. And I partly say that because it shouldn't be a daunting change.

Dozens of acres is already far larger than a handful of facilities offer.
It's not really a daunting change, rather a consideration of the species in question and whether maintaining ground cover will be beneficial.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Then you should also have an understanding of the challenges with keeping grass stable and growing when constantly grazed by hoofstock.

Admittedly not with exotic or zoo hoofstock, but yes. My solution would be rotational grazing, but I've read keepers being hesitant to shift hoofstock into rotation. Believe it or not, I do consider the experience of better qualified individuals as well.

 

[Great Argus]

Admittedly not with exotic or zoo hoofstock, but yes. My solution would be rotational grazing, but I've read keepers being hesitant to shift hoofstock into rotation.

Not sure how you'd work successful rotational grazing in the zoo setting, quite frankly.
Many species of exotic hoofstock are not easy to shift between exhibits, sometimes not even into their barns. Changing exhibits regularly makes several species more fractious. So yeah, it's not really a good idea.

Believe it or not, I do consider the experience of better qualified individuals as well.

I don't particularly believe it, considering you've spent the thread arguing with actual zookeepers about husbandry.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Believe it or not, I do consider the experience of better qualified individuals as well.

Well you clearly don't seem to be doing that in any way at all. Like @Great Argus has said, some of the people you have been arguing with are real, fully-qualified zookeepers, so they almost certainly know a lot more than you do about this.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Not sure how you'd work successful rotational grazing in the zoo setting, quite frankly.
Many species of exotic hoofstock are not easy to shift between exhibits, sometimes not even into their barns. Changing exhibits regularly makes several species more fractious. So yeah, it's not really a good idea.



I don't particularly believe it, considering you've spent the thread arguing with actual zookeepers about husbandry.

There's an old saying that goes, "You can move a cow anywhere it wants to go." But this is especially true with bison. The Rocky Mountain Arsenal Wildlife Refuge rotates them by using water, and their bison herd is very much a managed, semi-captive one.

Also, that was the hot takes thread. Now it's just a vanilla enclosure size thread. Although anybody that comes at me sideways for their own amusement will receive the same kind of treatment.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Well you clearly don't seem to be doing that in any way at all. Like @Great Argus has said, some of the people you have been arguing with are real, fully-qualified zookeepers, so they almost certainly know a lot more than you do about this.

I like Aardwolf and Neil. But I'm not going to agree with anyone on everything.

 

[Lafone]

Rotational grazing is fairly easy to manage in domesticated species as they are commonly herded and moved more often (and even handled) as part of their management.

Given the amount of supplementary feeding going on with exotics in a traditional zoo setting, continuous grazing, with some recognition for plant recovery, good drainage, practical planting of the more robust grasses (and mixes) as well as the tactical application of CP or more manual methods of unwanted plant control, is going to be more practical. Also saving on unnecessary contact and unnecessary movement.

On division, fewer zoo animals could be comfortably temporaily sectioned using electric or mobile fencing (part aesthetics, part their far less predictable reaction to it) than domestics, so you are talking about sectioning large enclosures with permanent and robust fencing to ensure rotation works, which also comes at higher cost. You need more space for what isn't an efficiency gain in management, welfare or land use.

If you had enough space for rotation, the enclosures would be large enough not to wear that much in the first place.

Oh and I actually work in agriculture.

 

[Great Argus]

There's an old saying that goes, "You can move a cow anywhere it wants to go." But this is especially true with bison. The Rocky Mountain Arsenal Wildlife Refuge rotates them by using water, and their bison herd is very much a managed, semi-captive one.

Ah, but it has to want to go - many hoofstock are perfectly satisfied staying in one area, and they're often better off that way. Denying zoo animals water unless they move like you want will get you in trouble with the regulating agencies.

Although anybody that comes at me sideways for their own amusement will receive the same kind of treatment.

We already knew that, you're not shy with your opinions. More amused that you think we keep coming at you sideways even when there's actual zookeepers rebutting your ideas.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Rotational grazing is fairly easy to manage in domesticated species as they are commonly herded and moved more often (and even handled) as part of their management.

Given the amount of supplementary feeding going on with exotics in a traditional zoo setting, continuous grazing, with some recognition for plant recovery, good drainage, practical planting of the more robust grasses (and mixes) as well as the tactical application of CP or more manual methods of unwanted plant control, is going to be more practical. Also saving on unnecessary contact and unnecessary movement.

On division, fewer zoo animals could be comfortably temporaily sectioned using electric or mobile fencing (part aesthetics, part their far less predictable reaction to it) than domestics, so you are talking about sectioning large enclosures with permanent and robust fencing to ensure rotation works, which also comes at higher cost. You need more space for what isn't an efficiency gain in management, welfare or land use.

If you had enough space for rotation, the enclosures would be large enough not to wear that much in the first place.

Oh and I actually work in agriculture.

I would never suggest pure grazing without any supplement. Always test the soil for deficiencies.

Rotational grazing is definitely used where otherwise one singular pasture is quickly overgrazed. The point is to make grazing more efficient. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it where overgrazing is not a concern.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Ah, but it has to want to go - many hoofstock are perfectly satisfied staying in one area, and they're often better off that way. Denying zoo animals water unless they move like you want will get you in trouble with the regulating agencies.



We already knew that, you're not shy with your opinions. More amused that you think we keep coming at you sideways even when there's actual zookeepers rebutting your ideas.

You don't deny them water, silly. You just change where the water is and open the gate to the paddock. I can only tell you it works with bison.

Rebutting which ideas exactly? Neil actually agreed with me that live feeding is neat, and I wholeheartedly do believe that.

 

[La Cucaracha]

I've also had some keepers admit there is a point of diminishing returns with enclosure size. There have been studies about this, too.

 

[Great Argus]

You don't deny them water, silly. You just change where the water is and open the gate to the paddock. I can only tell you it works with bison.

I'm aware of how it works. It is essentially denying water if the animals do not want to move or are struggling to locate the water. It's a bad method for the captive environment.

Rebutting which ideas exactly? Neil actually agreed with me that live feeding is neat, and I wholeheartedly do believe that.

I like how the agree point that immediately came to your mind was the one completely irrelevant to the main argument at hand.

 

[Riverdale Zoo]

Four pages of discussion regarding the square area of a single pen and nobody has mentioned the size of the outdoor pen, the indoor pen, the dens or burrows in both, where they shelter and sleep, the off season or foul weather protection areas and the short term storage or medical isolation spaces required to actually keep livestock healthy and safe not too many living in a part of the world that has 4 seasons I take it.

 

[La Cucaracha]

I'm aware of how it works. It is essentially denying water if the animals do not want to move or are struggling to locate the water. It's a bad method for the captive environment.



I like how the agree point that immediately came to your mind was the one completely irrelevant to the main argument at hand.

I've also had some keepers admit there is a point of diminishing returns with enclosure size. There have been studies about this, too.

So, not this either?

Four pages of discussion regarding the square area of a single pen and nobody has mentioned the size of the outdoor pen, the indoor pen, the dens or burrows in both, where they shelter and sleep, the off season or foul weather protection areas and the short term storage or medical isolation spaces required to actually keep livestock healthy and safe not too many living in a part of the world that has 4 seasons I take it.

I've mentioned at least winter enclosures and separating stalls. If it's not in the last four pages, blame mods lol.