Dierenpark Emmen (Closed) Emmen Zoo news

I began to wonder if there is practical material to lay in elephant moats, so elephant falling would not damage itself?

At times when wild elephants were captured in pits, pits were filled with branches as a cushion. Maybe zoos can lay branches or maybe some rubber-like material in the moat? At the worst, elephant would be scratched, but not broken legs.
 
I fully agree with you UntBwe. And thank you for your loving words about Annabel.

The day Annabel fell into the ditch I visited Emmen and saw the terrible accident. The youngsters were playing and running around a lot on this sunday, it was beautiful to watch. Suddenly we saw Annabel falling down and it didn't look good right away because she wasn't moving at all.

The ellies were so upset, I never forget their shouting and crying.
 
UntBwe said:
Where were you before? Are you also telling the zoo about other enclosures which are probably not according the guidelines of today? Or are you waiting for other accidents to happen?
Click to expand...

Please read... it's not my task because I'm not an elephant expert. But the elephant experts did just this, long time ago. Stupid to ignore it in my opinion.

@Jurek7
Maybe zoos can lay branches or maybe some rubber-like material in the moat?
Click to expand...

Nope: no option. All moats should be reconstructed to a safer thing.
 
Well, other enclosures not build according to the guidelines are reconstructed, like the gorilla exhibit in Blijdorp, they missed a meter or so...

@everyone: we are not experts....so stop to wanna be a wannabee. Guidelines are not written for you. Clear?
 
safariman said:
Well, other enclosures not build according to the guidelines are reconstructed, like the gorilla exhibit in Blijdorp, they missed a meter or so...

@everyone: we are not experts....so stop to wanna be a wannabee. Guidelines are not written for you. Clear?
Click to expand...

All they are is a guide not law! Therefore not every zoo will follow them word by word.

No one is saying their an expert. Not all moats are bad chester's elephant enclosure basically uses a moat but without the vertical sides (on the elephants side). Unless you want zoos to go back to horrible BIG metal bars to keep elephants in?
 
safariman said:
Well, other enclosures not build according to the guidelines are reconstructed, like the gorilla exhibit in Blijdorp, they missed a meter or so...

@everyone: we are not experts....so stop to wanna be a wannabee. Guidelines are not written for you. Clear?
Click to expand...


That's not right, the enclosure was build by the guidelines. Only the guidelines have changed in the meantime. And it's was put very clearly that the enclosure has been made 'bokitoproof', so the gorilla in guestion could not escape anymore.

The fact that guidelines change do not mean zoo's have to follow them immediately. And in the case of the dry moat, both lethal accidents had other causes, the dry moat was not to blame. Apparently it's only a danger to aged elephants, and even then there have to be special circumstances for an elephant to fall in. So why are these guidelines so important? The emmen enclosure is still a very good one, and the chances of another accident are slim at most. As I said before, the real experts are the caretakers, if they say the moat is safe, why believe some written lines, instead of real persons?

I was in the zoo today, and I saw swee san thay standing at the place of the accident, as if she is still missing annabel. I really missed annabel's presence in the herd, so it's to bad that she isn't there anymore. On the other hand, she was an old elephant with health problems, so the thought of loosing annabel within a few years wasn't unthinkable.
 
The fact that guidelines change do not mean zoo's have to follow them immediately. And in the case of the dry moat, both lethal accidents had other causes, the dry moat was not to blame. Apparently it's only a danger to aged elephants, and even then there have to be special circumstances for an elephant to fall in. So why are these guidelines so important? The emmen enclosure is still a very good one, and the chances of another accident are slim at most. As I said before, the real experts are the caretakers, if they say the moat is safe, why believe some written lines, instead of real persons?
Click to expand...

Why do you have such an issue with admitting that steep dry moats are dangerous for elephants and that the moat costs Annabel`s life? We all know that it was a mistake made about 25 years ago when the current enclosure was planned, and we also know that the current management is already planning the new enclosure without such dangerous moats. I don`t blame them for hoping that nothing would happen until the move into the new enclosure, although in hindsight, we know they were wrong. Do you really want to tell me that even after that horrific accident of Annabel, the keepers in Emmen tell you the moat is not to blame and not dangerous?! If they really tell such nonsense, they`re wrong. And you`ll find lots of elephant keepers (=experts) who will tell you that they know since long that dry moats are a deadly danger for elephants. Why do you think the zoo in Munich reconstructed their elephant enclosure last year, to eliminate the steep dry moat? Why does Amersfoort zoo not have a dry moat at all, although the fence is disturbing the visitor`s view?

Again, I am with you that I did not expect a death in Emmen, and I agree that the risk for another death in the moat is low. But the moat is potenially dangerous for ALL elephants, young and old, young ones can also fall unlucky and break legs or their backbone, and elephants of all ages can be pushed in during a row, or during rough play.
 
Why don't i admit it? Because there simply is nothing to admit. The moat is not the blame for annabel's death. Elephant's are too smart to fall in. Off course there's a small risk, that's why they don't use a dry moat in the new enclosure. But aside from that, the risk of an elephant falling in and seriously injuring itself is really small, so why should we consider it a 'death trap'? Emmen has been using a dry moat since the 1960's and in the old situation elephants were often begging for food, and were leaning dangerously far over the moat. And never did an accident occur. In the current enclosure there was no reason to consider a dry moat a danger. And the facts still proove it. Youngsters almost can't be seriously harmed becaused they are too well build, the youngest ones are kept away from the moat by the adults and by the electric wire, and the old ones are way too smart.

Annabel was the victim of circumstances, nothing more. That's sad enough. Even with hindsight we can't tell what would have happened if there hadn't been a dry moat. So let's stop weeping, emmen didn't make mistakes. Accidents simply occur.
 
Accidents can be prevented when the cause of danger is known, and Annabel`s death PROVES again that steep dry moats are death traps for elephants.

Which is the last I will say on this topic. I am still very sad that she died, and I am very sorry for the keepers in Emmen and most of all, Annabel`s family who misses her most.
 
There's that word again; 'death trap'. I'm sorry, but it's obvious it isn't. She just landed on her back. And yes, the problem was that it occured in the dry moat, so they a hard time getting her out. After section it turned out that she did suffer in the moat, but if she hadn't broken her neck, she could have got on her feet again. Sadly, there was no way to see that when she was lying in there. Of course people think it was because of these circumstances that the moat was to blame, but it's simply not true. The real problem was her age, and the the fact she fell on her back.
 
Johnny said:
Why don't i admit it? Because there simply is nothing to admit.
Click to expand...

You have to admit that two elephants in Emmen lost their lifes in Emmen because of the FACT that, for what reason, they ended in a dry moat with steep sides. So the moat is the problem, and ofcourse the reason they got in there in the first place. If there is no ditch, they can not fall into it is my opinion.
 
I dont understand you Johnny, the experts are very clear. Dry moats with steep walls are a danger for elephants. Emmen knew this and although they were warned they accepted the risk (because of financial reasons, planning a new zoo anyway etc etc ) and i can understand why they took the risk.
But now things went wrong they should accept they re the ones to blame as they very consciencely took the risk of an elephant getting hurt or as happened killed, by falling into the moat.
And none of us is an elephant expert but all of us can easily reason:

Moats are a danger, Emmen knew this, decided to take the risk and they paid the price with the loss of one of there cows.

Like said before let's hope other zoos take the lesson and remove their steep walls
 
DDcorvus said:
I dont understand you Johnny, the experts are very clear. Dry moats with steep walls are a danger for elephants. Emmen knew this and although they were warned they accepted the risk (because of financial reasons, planning a new zoo anyway etc etc ) and i can understand why they took the risk.
But now things went wrong they should accept they re the ones to blame as they very consciencely took the risk of an elephant getting hurt or as happened killed, by falling into the moat.
And none of us is an elephant expert but all of us can easily reason:

Moats are a danger, Emmen knew this, decided to take the risk and they paid the price with the loss of one of there cows.

Like said before let's hope other zoos take the lesson and remove their steep walls
Click to expand...

Since the moat wasn't the cause of the accident, emmen has no reason to be warned. Annabel fell on her back. If she broke a leg in the enclosure itself, is the enclosure suddenly unsafe? No. This was a very unfortunate and sad accident, nothing more. Emmen couldn't help it, it's as simple as that.


@ safariman;

Except the fact that the female leopard will move to another zoo, it is very quiet at the emmen-front. And the quarterly information bulletin is 3 months late now. Probably to busy with planning the new zoo;)
 
If there is no moat, no animal can fall into it. That's my point, and also the statement in the guidlines, ignored (unfortunately) by Emmen Zoo.

Where is the leopard moving to?
 
@ Jonny: You said earlier that Annabel could have injured her neck if she had fallen into a moat with a gentle slope. That`s just wrong - have a close look at the moat in Owehands, and you`ll see that the kind of fall Annabel died from is simply impossible without a steep edge. If an elephant is standing at a gentle slope and is pushed, it will most likely just do a few steps to the side. Or, if the push is so strong that the animal gets down, it will fall on the side, and not falling 2 meters down, landing on the back wth the feet towards the sky! You don`t need a degree in physics to understand that the injuries will much, MUCH worse when falling 2 meters down a steep edge. It is certainly thinkable that elephants push each other so badly that one breaks its neck or is otherwise badly injured, but that requires an attack with the intenion to kill, while accidental pushes can only cause very bad injuries when there is a steep moat to fall in.

So without the steep moat, Annabel had not died, and that`s the legal definition of a "cause". Other circumstances (young bulls playing rough, Annabel being old) contributed to the accident, but that does not eliminate the role of the moat, and elephant enclosures that serve as home for young and old elephants must be properly prepared for young elephants playing and old elephants not being as steady on their feet.
 
According to visitors she 'flew' a couple of meters. She would have fallen very badly, with or without a moat. As I said, the moat was a complication, not the cause. The only mistake emmen made was that the current enclosure has flaws concerning the keeping of a herd with that many youngsters, and that was something they couldn't imagine in their wildest dreams at the ending of the eightie's.

@ safariman; I don't know where she is going. Because she has been imported from sri lanka she is very valuable for the breeding programme, and the young leopards she had last year died. Apparently she is not showing signs of pregnancy, so she is moved to a zoo with better facilities for breeding leopards. It seems to me that the current leopard enclosure wasn't build with a breeding goal, so that would explain the difficulties at the moment.
 
This is how Ouwehands' Zoo made it. I don't think Annabel would died if she fel into such a ditch.

1zgcks6.jpg


The visitors are standing on the same level as the elephants, but there is still a solid concrete wall with electrial wires between them. A very good solution. Visitors and elephants do have a free view to each other.
 
Well, we all all know, I quess, that Johnny is hard to convince as an Emmen fanatic.. ;-) Please let him it its dream..

@UbtBwe: That's the solution!
@Yassa: totally correct reply... ;-)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top