North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

With Miami, also have to consider what is their long term plan with African elephants. They have 2 non-reproductive cows in another exhibit. They are not “young” but I don’t recall their ages. Unfortunately the exhibits are not that close to merge without some other reconfiguration of the zoo. Will be interesting to see what they do Mike the less.
"none the less" not "Mike" (not sure what auto-correct was doing there!)

Anyway, the African population at Miami is about 47 years old:

Miami Zoo - Miami, Florida, United States
0.1 Peggy (WILD × WILD) 1976.00.00
0.1 Mabel (WILD × WILD) 1976.00.00
Total: 0.2.0 (2)
 
With Miami, also have to consider what is their long term plan with African elephants. They have 2 non-reproductive cows in another exhibit. They are not “young” but I don’t recall their ages. Unfortunately the exhibits are not that close to merge without some other reconfiguration of the zoo. Will be interesting to see what they do Mike the less.
Both are certianly geriatric, but easily could have another decade or so in them.
Considering it's becoming less and less common for zoos to have both species long-term, my guess is that the goal is to phase out one. I'd say this is more likely with the Africans due to both individuals being post-reproductive and no apparent need or ability to bring in more animals as they did with Ongard. I suppose they could opt to hold bachelors or even l continue to bring in geriatric animals, but I don't really see this as being too likely.
If I recall correctly, their barn has 4 stalls and an ERD. So the most they could house theoretically is 4 elephants to have space to separate each should it be needed. This is to enough space to house each elephant short term should severe weather(hurricanes specifically)
Oh yeah definitely their current space isn't suitable. I suppose it could be possible for a planned expansion down the line after Nellie passes, but that's pure speculation and I haven't been able to find anything backing that possibility up.

Personally, I think their space would be perfect for a small number of bachelors. Two of those barn stalls are already bull-proof so it wouldn't be a huge issue to make the rest of them match. And we all know more bachelor holding is never a bad thing.
In this scenario I would sincerity hope Ongard would be moved into a breeding situation. Ongard is young but very well could start breeding females quickly. Just look at African elephant Callee's stellar performance in Omaha at just 20 years old!

I could perhaps see Houston as a potential good move for him. After Thai's passing and a presumed herd split, Ongard would be close in age to Tilly, Tupelo and later on Winnie, while also still being able to breed Tess if she was still reproductive by that time. I'd say Albuquerque or ALS could be options, but I see them needing older, proven bulls in a faster manner than Ongard would be able to provide.
 
As much as I love that they have continued to house both species. The most feasible and cost-effective would be to phase out their asians. As much as I favor them over Africans, the only way they will get any more is if they do a costly import or if another facility can spare some females. Which there doesn't seem to be any of. Houston is the only facility outside of White Oak that has multiple Matrilines currently breeding and they don't seem to be too eager to move any females out anytime soon. I don't have much knowledge of the potential Canadian breeding ban or what that means for African Lion Safari in Canada but that could be another option however I wouldn't count on it just yet. However, with Sedgewick and Omaha's breeding taking off, it won't be long before they find themselves needing to move a matriline or two out. I could see Miami doing what Reid Park did and going through with renovating their African space to include a three or four-stall barn, two or three "indoor" paddocks, and then taking on one of the matrilines from either facility to start another breeding herd. The same could be said of other places such as Louisville, San Antonio, and Brookfield. All of these facilities say they would love to get back into elephants in the future and with the way everything currently going they could all potentially take on a matriline or two from one of the three current powerhouses within the African population.
 
As much as I love that they have continued to house both species. The most feasible and cost-effective would be to phase out their asians. As much as I favor them over Africans, the only way they will get any more is if they do a costly import or if another facility can spare some females. Which there doesn't seem to be any of. Houston is the only facility outside of White Oak that has multiple Matrilines currently breeding and they don't seem to be too eager to move any females out anytime soon. I don't have much knowledge of the potential Canadian breeding ban or what that means for African Lion Safari in Canada but that could be another option however I wouldn't count on it just yet. However, with Sedgewick and Omaha's breeding taking off, it won't be long before they find themselves needing to move a matriline or two out. I could see Miami doing what Reid Park did and going through with renovating their African space to include a three or four-stall barn, two or three "indoor" paddocks, and then taking on one of the matrilines from either facility to start another breeding herd. The same could be said of other places such as Louisville, San Antonio, and Brookfield. All of these facilities say they would love to get back into elephants in the future and with the way everything currently going they could all potentially take on a matriline or two from one of the three current powerhouses within the African population.
I'm not entirely sure on the sizing of the current African facility but my guess is it's similar to the Asian holding in terms of size. Would there even be space to renovate if need be? I've never been to Miami and their map isn't very helpful lol.

I can definitely see African investment as a possibility, but I really hope we don't loose Miami as an Asian holder. There are already not very many in NA as it is.
It could potentially be possible for the facility to continue to hold both in the form of an African Breeding herd and a small Asian bachelor herd. Not super likely but possible I suppose.

Again, very unfamiliar on available space, but it may very well be equally likely that Miami would invest in expanding their asian habitat and import a few females or work out matriline splits within the region (This really only leaves Houston, ALS, White Oak ane Endangered Ark as possibilities though). Bringing in Ongard was an evident step on their interest in continuing a future with Asians versus Africans. Obviously plans change and it may very well be a more appealing option to turn to the booming African population, but I think there's potential in either.

Its also plausible for Miami to ditch plans for a breeding herd on either end and just opt to hold bachelors or geriatric females. Im more inclined to go with bachelors since geriatrics animals aren't exactly "exciting" crowd-pleasers, and I imagine SSP coordinators would be more inclined to request holding for surplus males than aging females.
 
I hadn't realized Tina is 58, so sending her to TES at such an advanced age may very well not be something the zoo would want to risk her health with. I do believe though, given that LA has lost two of their old girls a year apart from each other, Tina likely doesn't have many years left. And from what I know of LA's complex they could potentially hold her AND new elephants, or they could wait until she passes easily. As of last year, LA's statement on Billy breeding is that he simply didn't have potential mates at the zoo because the girls were post-reproductive, but they did emphasize his genetic importance, so imo it feels very likely they'll be looking to accept new cows after Tina passes.

I need to remind the audience that Tina was a circus elephant many years so she knows the routines of a road trip so she probably wouldn’t have an issue with a trip to Tennessee. In fact I am sure she would just load up easily when asked even in a PC situation. She has lived that life for decades. What we don’t know is if she has any health issues. If she’s in reasonable health, it would be nice if she made that move so the zoo can have one or two cows that Billy can breed. I can’t see the zoo letting go of Billy.

I don’t want TES to have another Jana and Nicole situation again.

I remember seeing Tina and Jewel when they were on the road just before Boo joined them and I live in Georgia.
 
Regarding news on the European thread about Sibu and Aung Bo's moves from Dierenrijk and Chester zoo respectively, does anyone suppose either of these bulls could be indended NA imports?
I am extremely unfamiliar with Europe's population but with their limit on breeding I imagine we'd see less bull transports in the region, but im no expert so anyone feel free to correct me on this.

I know ALS indended to relieve a European bull before Covid hit, and they aren't exactly open publicity wise, so one of them COULD be transported there.
 
Regarding news on the European thread about Sibu and Aung Bo's moves from Dierenrijk and Chester zoo respectively, does anyone suppose either of these bulls could be indended NA imports?
I am extremely unfamiliar with Europe's population but with their limit on breeding I imagine we'd see less bull transports in the region, but im no expert so anyone feel free to correct me on this.

I know ALS indended to relieve a European bull before Covid hit, and they aren't exactly open publicity wise, so one of them COULD be transported there.


Interesting point. What comes to my mind is would it be safe to fly a mature bull especially if he’s in musth?
I am not an expert, however.
 
No, I highly doubt it. First off, both of them are large, fully mature bulls, that are difficult to move overseas. Their size and weight makes it much more difficult/expensive to do that (a 6 to 10 year old animal that only weighs somewhere between five and 8000 pounds is a lot easier to move, vs a 10,000+ pound adult). Secondly, neither of them are logical choices to come to North America. Sibu is an Alexander son, and while Aung Bo would be a founder to the North American population, he has much more use remaining in Europe, considering that he is his father‘s only son that is currently proven as a natural Breeder.

Assuming Rockton is still looking to Europe for a new bull, there are a number of much more logical choices, particularly any one of the numerous Radza sons that are kicking around in Bachelor holding. Other sensible options could be Ludwig or Min Tan from Heidelberg, or Edgar from Leipzig, amongst others. There’s a lot of crossover between Rocktons lines and lots of the available young bulls in Europe, as Rockton sent both Nikolai and Calvin to Europe, where both bred prolifically, and of course Rockton has Lily from Europe as well. So that eliminates any of Nikolai‘s numerous offspring in Europe, any of Chanda‘s multiple descendants, or any other Motek line animals from being options for ALS.
 
It was reported that Aung Bo is going to Dublin (which is a good choice). Sibu‘s future home is still unkown but as a son of Alexander he is related to most of the females in African Lion Safari. And he‘s a huge bull, I agree with Hyak that it‘s much easier to transport younger bulls overseas.

By the way, neither Motek/Warda nor Nicolai nor Calvin have that many offspring in Europe. Or rather, Nicolai has many kids but most are from the Manari and Sayang families who are from the Borneo and are not supposed to breed in Europe anymore die to genetic reasons. And three of Alex‘s offspring and four of his grandkids have been exported to the US and Australia.
 
Assuming Rockton is still looking to Europe for a new bull, there are a number of much more logical choices, particularly any one of the numerous Radza sons that are kicking around in Bachelor holding.
ALS only really has Europe to turn to logically.
Currently NA doesn't have too many of age surplus bulls. There's Baylor from Houston and Ongard in Miami, but both are a little too young to be breeding cows just yet so I doubt they're being considered as of now.
I don't think we can write it off 100%, but so many of ALS' cows are related to the NA stock of young bulls. Given their relations with European facilities in the past, receiving a bull from Europe feels like the most likely option imo.
 
ALS only really has Europe to turn to logically.
Currently NA doesn't have too many of age surplus bulls. There's Baylor from Houston and Ongard in Miami, but both are a little too young to be breeding cows just yet so I doubt they're being considered as of now.
Baylor and Ongard, who are both fourteen years old, are indeed old enough to start breeding cows as bull elephants become sexually mature at about the age of thirteen.
 
Baylor and Ongard, who are both fourteen years old, are indeed old enough to start breeding cows as bull elephants become sexually mature at about the age of thirteen.
Both are still certianly young though.
ALS does have a few cows on the younger side either bull could breed with success, there are several cows in their breeding prime that are much older. Its not unheard of by ANY means, but usually more mature bulls tend to have the favor of cows.
With both JUST now reaching the beginning of their reproductive windows, I'd say the likelihood of them having success with cows quickly is slim. If they were closer to their 20s I'd be more inclined to agree, but as it stands I just don't see either making the move to Rockton soon.

While technically there's no huge rush to bring in a new bull given that only a handful of the younger girls are of breeding age now, I'd imagine ALS wouldn't want to have a huge gap of time between bulls. This is all assuming Johnson is transferred within the next year, which imo is hopefully something in the cards. The inbreeding risk is just too great now for him to remain much longer...
 
Once again, as usual in this particular topic, a lot of postulation and inaccurate “facts” are being thrown around at the moment.

First off, there is absolutely *zero* risk of any accidental inbreeding occurring at ALS. If Johnson ended up breeding one of his daughters, it would absolutely have been a deliberate decision by management, due to the management style used at the park.

Secondly, ALS has exactly FOUR mature breeding cows. Lily, Natasha, Opal, and Emily. Their next oldest potential breeding cow would be Nelly, who is currently 10. All the others are 8 and under.

Baylor and Ongard, both of whom are 14, would be prime candidates to go to ALS. At their age, they now outsize in both height and weight, all but the tallest and largest of cows. Couple that with the fact that ALL of their potential breeding cows, barring four, are 10 or less, there would likely be zero issues with a younger bull successfully breeding them. Even for the older four, simply do one last round of breeding by Johnson if so desired before he departs, and by the time they were ready to conceive again, the hypothetical bull in this situation would be *at least* 17-18 years old, which is, generally speaking, more than old enough to deal even with socially stubborn adult cows (which, none of the breeding girls at ALS are. Johnson started breeding with all of them when he was only 12 or 13).

Also most Asian bulls are *fertile* between 10 and 12 years old. Doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re mature enough to have a cow submit to them for breeding, but they are indeed fertile.

Also, there’s not a chance that Ongard would head to ALS. I don’t think it’s something that San Diego (who owns him) would permit. Baylor would be a significant amount more likely, both because he has multiple full brothers in the states, and also because Houston has sent animals there before, albeit decade ago now. Their management also seems much more elephant, as opposed to PR, minded when it comes to such things.
 
First off, there is absolutely *zero* risk of any accidental inbreeding occurring at ALS. If Johnson ended up breeding one of his daughters, it would absolutely have been a deliberate decision by management, due to the management style used at the park.
Not sure where you got the impression that anyone here thought that Johnson inbreeding was an accident? It's clear hes intentionally being mixed with the reproductive cows regardless of their relation to him. Its just not feasible for ALS to seperate him for more individualized breeding as in other facilities with related offspring (such as Houston). Not to mention waiting for new bull would likely have meant sacrificing cow fertility as in Emily's case.

Its also not wrong to say that younger bulls may have less success with cows. It's been recorded at multiple zoos that younger bulls can struggle for various reasons. Not to say this would be the case with Baylor or Ongard, but it's a variable that should be taken into some consideration. Onyx being in the herd is also something that may be a wrench for a younger bull. He's on the younger side himself but just beginning to reach an age where he might butt heads with a younger breeding bull versus an older one.

We also have to consider that ALS may not be looking for a new bull asap. While personally I find them waiting unlikely (given that they have so many young cows reaching the beginning of their breeding window), it may very well be that they're choosing to wait until a more mature or even proven bull can come their way before starting breeding back up. Waiting until Onyx can be phased out and send to another facility may be a factor for them too.
 
Ok, moving this point of conversation here to this thread, in regards to Vus Musi at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Cause I’m getting different responses from different people about how he’s acting around the cows currently.

Some zoochat users have told me Vus Musi is getting along with the girls at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, others have told me he isn’t and is still a hothead around females. So now I’m genuinely just confused, so I just wanna ask has anyone actually seen him behavior wise in terms of his personality around the girls at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park? Cause one moment I’m hearing it’s courting behavior and the next moment I’m hearing he’s harassing the females and I don’t know the whole story, I don’t even think I’ve seen him ever in person so in other words I don’t know. But there is apparently quite a bit of mix messaging about this particular elephant from what I’m gathering so I’m moving this topic conversation here. Done speculating from here.
 
Last edited:
Ok, moving this point of conversation here to this thread, in regards to Vus Musi the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Cause I’m getting different responses from different people about how he’s acting around the cows currently.

Some zoochat users have told me Vus Musi is getting along with the girls at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, others have told me he isn’t and is still a hothead around females. So now I’m genuinely just confused, so I just wanna ask has anyone actually seen him behavior wise in terms of his personality around the girls at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park? Cause one moment I’m hearing it’s courting behavior and the next moment I’m hearing he’s harassing the females and I don’t know the whole story, I don’t even think I’ve seen him ever in person so in other words I don’t know. But there is apparently quite a bit of mix messaging about this particular elephant from what I’m gathering so I’m moving this topic conversation here. Done speculating from here.
There have been an increasing number of positive interactions between Musi and some of the females in the Safari Park herd, including courtship behaviors, but it has been a very long time coming. His health was not good when he first arrived from Fresno, and his time at Fresno seemed to have left him socially stunted. His initial reintroductions to the Safari Park females went very poorly, and he was aggressed on heavily by the girls, leaving him very fearful of them. In the months since, he has been seemingly growing in confidence with the select and growing number of females he has been introduced to again.
 
There have been an increasing number of positive interactions between Musi and some of the females in the Safari Park herd, including courtship behaviors, but it has been a very long time coming. His health was not good when he first arrived from Fresno, and his time at Fresno seemed to have left him socially stunted. His initial reintroductions to the Safari Park females went very poorly, and he was aggressed on heavily by the girls, leaving him very fearful of them. In the months since, he has been seemingly growing in confidence with the select and growing number of females he has been introduced to again.

Got it. This response now makes the most sense. Why was his health not good at Fresno if you don’t mind me asking? And what do you mean by socially stunted cause I don’t really know what that means as stupid as that sounds.
 
Got it. This response now makes the most sense. Why was his health not good at Fresno if you don’t mind me asking? And what do you mean by socially stunted cause I don’t really know what that means as stupid as that sounds.
I know nothing specific about the state of his health when he arrived back from Fresno other than that it was not good. Staff and volunteers at the Park shared that he was ill and being treated behind-the-scenes when he first arrived back at the Park, as many locals were quite excited to see him back and it took awhile for him to ever be on exhibit.

Socially stunted as in when he returned from Fresno he did not know how to appropriately interact with other elephants in a way that an animal of his age should have known how to do despite growing up in a robust and dynamic family herd. Something in the social dynamics in the group at Fresno caused him to regress and develop inappropriate social behaviors that the Safari Park herd reacted very adversely to.
 
I know nothing specific about the state of his health when he arrived back from Fresno other than that it was not good. Staff and volunteers at the Park shared that he was ill and being treated behind-the-scenes when he first arrived back at the Park, as many locals were quite excited to see him back and it took awhile for him to ever be on exhibit.

Socially stunted as in when he returned from Fresno he did not know how to appropriately interact with other elephants in a way that an animal of his age should have known how to do despite growing up in a robust and dynamic family herd. Something in the social dynamics in the group at Fresno caused him to regress and develop inappropriate social behaviors that the Safari Park herd reacted very adversely to.

Oh! This is actually really interesting to know. Thank you for telling me this news. I’m glad to know his social behaviors is at least improving, I’d like to think he could be a good breeding bull someday and be a father himself, but I’m trusting the park staff as they know what’s best for him and fingers crossed for calves.

Does anyone thinks his chances are good he will become a good breeding bull?
 
I'm still very confused on why Musi was moved back in the first place. His mother isn't post-reproductive yet, certianly? She's only in her 30s. I suppose they could be opting not to breed her again and using birth control but she is a valuable female and birth control is finicky.
This is a real social gamble introducing him back into his natal herd anyway let alone an inbreeding risk being introduced.
Im glad to hear Musi is adjusting and appears to be getting ahold of what to do (he too is VERY valuable) but I am a bit stumped since this appears to be pretty unprecedented to move a bachelor bull BACK to his natal facility.
 
Back
Top