Almost, but not entirely, rescues for harbor seals. A few institutions have bred them in recent years.
Example: New York Aquarium (New York Aquarium Welcomes Harbor Seal Pup)
Subspecies held in the USA, for ZTL
- Thread starter TinoPup
- Start date
Example: New York Aquarium (New York Aquarium Welcomes Harbor Seal Pup)
Green_mamba
Well-Known Member
I notice that tufted deer in American zoos have been listed as Elaphodus cephalophus cephalophus. Is this the case for all tufted deer in America or any of them Elaphodus cephalophus michianus like the ones in Europe.
All tufted deer in the US are Western tufted deer (the nominate subspecies).
Green_mamba
Well-Known Member
Thanks
They use their own sources for taxonomy, which I think is a fair trade for the huge service they do, so for the time being I wouldn't really complain;
One day they'll change it maybe, but saying they're "hilariously" wrong is a bit of an exaggeration and an insult if you ask me, given that what is "hilariously wrong" could one day be factual in scientific disciplines (I am aware it's an extreme take, but I hope you get what I mean).
Precisely - for example, if ZTL were to follow the hyper-lumped tiger taxonomy proposed a few years ago you'd have to merge ALL current holdings of Malayan and Siberian into the historic Bengal, South Chinese, Indochinese and Caspian holdings on ZTL, and probably the generic zoo-mix tiger entries too given the fact they don't usually contain Sumatran blood.
The net result would be that the tiger listings on ZTL would go from useful to pretty much entirely useless, with no differentiation made between a pure Siberian Tiger in the studbook programme and a hyper-inbred zoo-mix white tiger with various deformities
The current status quo as regards taxonomy on ZTL is far, far better than the alternative!
Another inconsistency in Zootierliste I noticed: pronghorn. The nominate subspecies is not, to the best of my knowledge, held in any zoos. The Peninsular subspecies is held in a handful of Southwestern zoos (usually advertised as such), and the rest of the population is generic/non-subspecific.
All non-peninsular pronghorn will be the nominate subspecies. A. a. mexicana and A. a. oregona are largely considered invalid, and I wouldn’t be totally surprised if A. a. sonoriensis isn’t eventually also considered to be synonymous with A. a. peninsualris. The desert-adapted pronghorn and plains-adapted pronghorn do seem to be deeply tied to the climates of their native ranges, however. Neither group does well outside of their native ranges/climates.
Gotcha, I thought they would be non-subspecific given the AZA Ungulate TAG profile lists the two programs as "Peninsular" and "Generic"
I think that’s largely to account for the uncertainty surrounding the validity of the various other subspecies and to align TAG messaging and promote the peninsular pronghorn as the animal of choice where applicable. In practice, it is safe to say all non-peninsular are nominate.
SusScrofa
Well-Known Member
This is a good discussion to have. I also asked the same questions about Plains Zebra and non-AZA Siberian Tiger and would really like for us members to come to a clear consensus.
To any European zoochatters editing for ZTL, what is the protocol when adding an entry to an animal with subspecies signed but that is present at a non-accredited institution of questionable reputation? I'm sure such places exist in Europe, even if less so than in America.
Do we go with a "innocent until proven guilty" method and assign it to the subspecies the zoo claims it belongs to, or do we do the opposite approach and just always assign generic status unless at an AZA zoo? At least with Giraffes its a clear and constantly discussed detail that only the Masai here are pure so even if signage indicates Rothchild's or reticulated subspecies, I do think it can be agreed to put them in the generic category.
Some other observations in US mammal listings I have questions about:
1. Sand Cat - no non-subspecific category for this species is currently available and editors have assigned US populations to both nominate and harrisoni. How are these subspecies known? I've never seen them signed on subspecific level and even Prospect Park Zoo has referred to their San Cats as "African" on social media yet they are assigned to the Arabian subspecies currently on ZTL.
2. Vervet Monkey complex - More species than subspecies question, but what is protocol for assigning Chlorocebus signed as anything other than pygerythrus? I've been to a couple of places that have theirs signed as sabeaus. I'm sure these are hybrids but again, there isn't concrete proof one way or the other so should we use an innocent approach and just go with signage?
3. Ateles fusciceps - Are all US holders subspecies rufiventris? I at least know from an email that Miami holds that subspecies but what about Philadelphia and the countless other places?
4. I've seen a number of species where the holders are being assigned to the nominate subspecies rather than non-subspecific category. I've seen this with Pallas's Cat, Geoffroy's Spider Monkey and Caracal so far. Are the listings currently there actually proven to hold nominate or is this just assumption/mistake by editors adding them in?
5. US-native mammals in rescue centers - As has been said already, rescues sometimes get moved around the country. However, in my experience there usually are signs about the individual being from somewhere else in their rescue bios. I've seen certain zoochatters who assign subspecies status in species lists solely on the rescue sanctuaries location, which I guess usually makes sense, so is this the approach we should use? I at least feel confident that all or nearly all Red Foxes on east coast are the fulva subspecies.
I haven't even looked at bird or herp listings, so I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions on those.
To any European zoochatters editing for ZTL, what is the protocol when adding an entry to an animal with subspecies signed but that is present at a non-accredited institution of questionable reputation? I'm sure such places exist in Europe, even if less so than in America.
Do we go with a "innocent until proven guilty" method and assign it to the subspecies the zoo claims it belongs to, or do we do the opposite approach and just always assign generic status unless at an AZA zoo? At least with Giraffes its a clear and constantly discussed detail that only the Masai here are pure so even if signage indicates Rothchild's or reticulated subspecies, I do think it can be agreed to put them in the generic category.
Some other observations in US mammal listings I have questions about:
1. Sand Cat - no non-subspecific category for this species is currently available and editors have assigned US populations to both nominate and harrisoni. How are these subspecies known? I've never seen them signed on subspecific level and even Prospect Park Zoo has referred to their San Cats as "African" on social media yet they are assigned to the Arabian subspecies currently on ZTL.
2. Vervet Monkey complex - More species than subspecies question, but what is protocol for assigning Chlorocebus signed as anything other than pygerythrus? I've been to a couple of places that have theirs signed as sabeaus. I'm sure these are hybrids but again, there isn't concrete proof one way or the other so should we use an innocent approach and just go with signage?
3. Ateles fusciceps - Are all US holders subspecies rufiventris? I at least know from an email that Miami holds that subspecies but what about Philadelphia and the countless other places?
4. I've seen a number of species where the holders are being assigned to the nominate subspecies rather than non-subspecific category. I've seen this with Pallas's Cat, Geoffroy's Spider Monkey and Caracal so far. Are the listings currently there actually proven to hold nominate or is this just assumption/mistake by editors adding them in?
5. US-native mammals in rescue centers - As has been said already, rescues sometimes get moved around the country. However, in my experience there usually are signs about the individual being from somewhere else in their rescue bios. I've seen certain zoochatters who assign subspecies status in species lists solely on the rescue sanctuaries location, which I guess usually makes sense, so is this the approach we should use? I at least feel confident that all or nearly all Red Foxes on east coast are the fulva subspecies.
I haven't even looked at bird or herp listings, so I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions on those.
No, do not rely on the facility's location! Also, a lot of foxes are not the North American subspecies. Many are from the pet trade, including those labeled as rescues; you can't send that exotic you don't want any more/can't handle to the SPCA, it goes to a zoo (hopefully). Nature centers, at least, are more likely to have a wild rescue, but this isn't always the case. Even AZA zoos have ones from the pet trade.
Most, if not all, Chlorocebus monkeys in US zoos are hybrids. I have, however, seen zoos sign them as vervet, grivet, and green monkey on different occasions. This is a case where it'd probably be best if ZTL added a section for "species status unclear" for various Chlorocebus sp.
Within the AZA, three spider monkey programs are managed: Ateles fusciceps rufiventris (AFR), Ateles geoffroyi vellerosus (AGV), and Ateles geoffroyi geoffroyi (AGG). While there are exceptions, most spider monkeys in the AZA likely belong to one of these three programs- so most A. fusciceps would be AFR, most AGVs are signed as "Mexican spider monkey", and most that are signed as "Central American" or "Geoffroy's" spider monkey are AGGs. Outside the AZA, most Ateles geoffroyi are likely not subspecific, however there could very well be some subspecific individuals out there.
The vervets at Columbus and those descended from them (San Diego and Zoo Boise) are purebred C. pygerythrus, as the original animals were imported nuisance animals from South Africa.
Most outside the AZA though are still hybrids, correct? I'm glad there are at least a few zoos working with pure vervets!
Some additional clarifications:
Crested Porcupines - the AZA is focusing on Cape, and pretty much every animal in an AZA facility should be Cape rather than African Crested at this point. Both are present outside the AZA, which makes things trickier, and don't forget Indian Crested is present too.
See here for identification discussion:
"African Crested Porcupines" - which species are they?
Ocelot - the AZA population is determined to consist of Brazilian and generic. The split is nearly 50/50, so use caution.
Bongo - these are Eastern/Mountain Bongo, issaci
Dama Gazelle - both Addra and Mhorr are present, Addra is currently the AZA focus.
Black-crowned Crane - these should all be Western. In western the red is confined to the lower half of the cheek patch, in eastern the red significantly extends into the upper half.
Gray-crowned Crane - these should all be Eastern, far as is known.
Gentoo Penguin - largest chunk of the population is ellsworthi, but papua is also present.
Slender-snouted Crocodile - the AZA has determined their population to be the Western species.
Dwarf Crocodile - this split has been a confusing one, multiple species are present as well as hybrids. List to species carefully.
Galapagos Giant Tortoise - numerous subspecies/species present as well as hybrids. There has been a push to genetically identify the population and the majority has been confirmed. Try to figure out the right species if possible.
Crested Porcupines - the AZA is focusing on Cape, and pretty much every animal in an AZA facility should be Cape rather than African Crested at this point. Both are present outside the AZA, which makes things trickier, and don't forget Indian Crested is present too.
See here for identification discussion:
"African Crested Porcupines" - which species are they?
Ocelot - the AZA population is determined to consist of Brazilian and generic. The split is nearly 50/50, so use caution.
Bongo - these are Eastern/Mountain Bongo, issaci
Dama Gazelle - both Addra and Mhorr are present, Addra is currently the AZA focus.
Black-crowned Crane - these should all be Western. In western the red is confined to the lower half of the cheek patch, in eastern the red significantly extends into the upper half.
Gray-crowned Crane - these should all be Eastern, far as is known.
Gentoo Penguin - largest chunk of the population is ellsworthi, but papua is also present.
Slender-snouted Crocodile - the AZA has determined their population to be the Western species.
Dwarf Crocodile - this split has been a confusing one, multiple species are present as well as hybrids. List to species carefully.
Galapagos Giant Tortoise - numerous subspecies/species present as well as hybrids. There has been a push to genetically identify the population and the majority has been confirmed. Try to figure out the right species if possible.
SusScrofa
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that info, I have seen A.g. vellerosus at the non-AZA Bee City Zoo with the characteristics of that subspecies and signed as "Mexican Spider Monkey", so I assume they do exist outside of AZA. The zoo also keeps generic Geoffroy's in a separate exhibit..