North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

John Marchwick said:
Tendaji is an active breeding bull, has sired a calf and is a proven breeding bull so I’m not sure why you’re saying he has issues breeding. Ajani and Kedar, I’m not speculating there cause just cause they’re not breeding now, doesn’t mean they cant figure out how to breed. We have no idea or I at least don’t know why they haven’t had luck, though I did here around a year ago that Kedar had been showing interest in breeding with Zahara but I don’t know what means nor am I gonna speculate further on that cause that could mean so many things.

just so you know too, just because the 3 males Sonny, Mopani and Jabari aren’t around breeding bulls now, doesn’t mean they won’t eventually be around a breeding bull. We have no idea what Omaha nor Indianapolis’s intentions are, they know what’s best for their animals, and they certainly know more about elephant care and welfare than I certainly do. And the calves expected to be born at Toledo and Reid Park, they could be girls those calves born for all we know. There’s no point in speculating on something like that when we don’t even know the gender of the calves yet.

we have no idea what facilities will or will not bring an active breeding bull, and for all we know other bulls (Tamani at Kansas City, Titan at Sedgwick County, Vus Musi at San Diego Zoo Safari Park, Samson at Maryland Zoo, Jabali and Tsavo at Disneys Animal Kingdom). I just think the best thing we can do is be patient. I personally have been wrong about so many things when it comes to elephants and was stupid enough in the past to post ridiculous claims and speculation over the things that I thought I knew what I was talking about, only to be later get proven wrong. We have a long ways to go with the elephant population still in the United States, which I think almost everyone on here by now is aware of. But for example with calves being born, we went from 1-2 born in years between 2020-2022, we had 5 born in 2023. My point is don’t repeat my mistakes of judging a facility so quickly, cause we don’t know the full story at the end of day in terms of why that particular elephant is managed or cared for the way it is.
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Alright. I was not expecting such a response to a completely non-judgmental and respectful reply.
John Marchwick said:
Tendaji is an active breeding bull, has sired a calf and is a proven breeding bull so I’m not sure why you’re saying he has issues breeding.
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Nowhere did I say that? I was grouping him in with the other wildborn bulls that are his peers and pointing out that they SHOULDN'T have issues breeding, as he evidently does not.

It is perfectly reasonable to say that Kedar and Ajani will likely never become proven or will not for many years. Both have been around fertile cows for years but haven't had success. Indy had to AI Zahara, Ajani was moved to make room for a bull who COULD breed the cows. The observation of them both coming from a bull-less facility is definitely a strong factor in why they haven’t had breeding success.
John Marchwick said:
just so you know too, just because the 3 males Sonny, Mopani and Jabari aren’t around breeding bulls now, doesn’t mean they won’t eventually be around a breeding bull. We have no idea what Omaha nor Indianapolis’s intentions are, they know what’s best for their animals, and they certainly know more about elephant care and welfare than I certainly do. And the calves expected to be born at Toledo and Reid Park, they could be girls those calves born for all we know. There’s no point in speculating on something like that when we don’t even know the gender of the calves yet.
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You completely paraphrased the final sentences of my last reply here. I am perfectly aware that bulls may be brought in, but given the current breeding climate it doesn't appear likely that this will occur for a few years yet. These are speculations based off of the current (and past) breeding climate of the mentioned facilities and the population as a whole. There are not enough bulls to go around currently and unless more individuals are brought in this will be the case for several years until some youngers age.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but its genuinely frustrating that I'm being told to not speculate in the speculation thread. If we just waited for news then why does this thread even exist in the first place? It is FOR discussions like what I've been talking about, and those discussions are not always 100% positive because no zoo or program is perfect. Im not going around saying any of these facilities are awful, and I do not believe they are. I am merely stating what myself and others have noticed. There AREN'T many active african breeding bulls. Facilities without bulls ARE producing apparent behavioral nonbreeders. I don't pretend to be an expert, but these observations are real and worth discussing in a thread like this. If you don't feel comfortable speculating then don't, but that is the purpose of this thread, and those who do wish to participate in such discussions should be able to do so without being told off.
 
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Mating is a social behavior, the bulls will have to learn how to behave around cows.

we know that animals have an instinct to reproduce regardless.

with s small group of active breeding bulls, it is hard to say what can happen. AI is difficult and expensive, it is highly invasive due to the cow’s reproductive anatomy.

Europe has been forming bachelor Asian herds with a mature bull and young bulls. The young bulls may have observed mating behavior at their birth homes, so we will see what happens when they get to their own breeding situations once they leave the bachelor holdings.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Alright. I was not expecting such a response to a completely non-judgmental and respectful reply.

Nowhere did I say that? I was grouping him in with the other wildborn bulls that are his peers and pointing out that they SHOULDN'T have issues breeding, as he evidently does not.

It is perfectly reasonable to say that Kedar and Ajani will likely never become proven or will not for many years. Both have been around fertile cows for years but haven't had success. Indy had to AI Zahara, Ajani was moved to make room for a bull who COULD breed the cows. The observation of them both coming from a bull-less facility is definitely a strong factor in why they haven’t had breeding success.

You completely paraphrased the final sentences of my last reply here. I am perfectly aware that bulls may be brought in, but given the current breeding climate it doesn't appear likely that this will occur for a few years yet. These are speculations based off of the current (and past) breeding climate of the mentioned facilities and the population as a whole. There are not enough bulls to go around currently and unless more individuals are brought in this will be the case for several years until some youngers age.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but its genuinely frustrating that I'm being told to not speculate in the speculation thread. If we just waited for news then why does this thread even exist in the first place? It is FOR discussions like what I've been talking about, and those discussions are not always 100% positive because no zoo or program is perfect. Im not going around saying any of these facilities are awful, and I do not believe they are. I am merely stating what myself and others have noticed. There AREN'T many active african breeding bulls. Facilities without bulls ARE producing apparent behavioral nonbreeders. I don't pretend to be an expert, but these observations are real and worth discussing in a thread like this. If you don't feel comfortable speculating then don't, but that is the purpose of this thread, and those who do wish to participate in such discussions should be able to do so without being told off.
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it was not meant as a judgment towards you. I understand too this thread is for speculation, just was explaining my point of view on things was all.
 
ZCChip said:
Mating is a social behavior, the bulls will have to learn how to behave around cows.

we know that animals have an instinct to reproduce regardless.

with s small group of active breeding bulls, it is hard to say what can happen. AI is difficult and expensive, it is highly invasive due to the cow’s reproductive anatomy.

Europe has been forming bachelor Asian herds with a mature bull and young bulls. The young bulls may have observed mating behavior at their birth homes, so we will see what happens when they get to their own breeding situations once they leave the bachelor holdings.
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There will certianly be a need for increased African bachelor holding now that we're seeing breeding begin to take off. There only two bachelor specific facilities in NA right now, and to my understanding they both can only hold a small number a-piece.

What we really need is an African version of Denver or two, where a large herd can be maintained with a mature bull at the head (these would be ideal locations for overrepresented, mature bulls like Mabu and Jackson to be held as well).
I'm sure at least a few facilities do have capability to house 3-4 bachelors AND breeding herds (IE Houston with Asians), but in a decade or so I'm not sure that handful of facilies will be enough to adequately meet the needs of all the young bulls. Im also unsure of any facilities that could/would be willing to dedicate solely to males, but I am truthfully more unfamiliar with the individual african holders so I can't make any guesses there.

ZCChip said:
The young bulls may have observed mating behavior at their birth homes, so we will see what happens when they get to their own breeding situations once they leave the bachelor holdings.
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I think therein the issue lies. Several of these young bulls are growing up in facilities without witnessing breeding themselves. We've seen the effects firsthand with Louie and Kedar. Both have, to my knowledge, "practiced" breeding behaviors but never managed to quite understand exactly what to do. Both come from facilities that haven't had a natural bred calf in decades. I'm not even sure having a bull mentor in a non-breeding setting would be of value in that department sadly.

Thankfully the only facility I'm really concerned about repeating itself when it comes to this is Indianapolis. Given, they could choose to finally make the switch to having an onsite breeding bull, but I can't say I'm betting on it. Which is a huge shame given that little Jabari is one of the most valuable young males in the region.
 
ZCChip said:
I need to remind the audience that Tina was a circus elephant many years so she knows the routines of a road trip so she probably wouldn’t have an issue with a trip to Tennessee. In fact I am sure she would just load up easily when asked even in a PC situation. She has lived that life for decades. What we don’t know is if she has any health issues. If she’s in reasonable health, it would be nice if she made that move so the zoo can have one or two cows that Billy can breed. I can’t see the zoo letting go of Billy.

I don’t want TES to have another Jana and Nicole situation again.

I remember seeing Tina and Jewel when they were on the road just before Boo joined them and I live in Georgia.
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What about back to SD , they own her . It would be ideal since the lost Mary last year .
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
There will certianly be a need for increased African bachelor holding now that we're seeing breeding begin to take off. There only two bachelor specific facilities in NA right now, and to my understanding they both can only hold a small number a-piece.

What we really need is an African version of Denver or two, where a large herd can be maintained with a mature bull at the head (these would be ideal locations for overrepresented, mature bulls like Mabu and Jackson to be held as well).
I'm sure at least a few facilities do have capability to house 3-4 bachelors AND breeding herds (IE Houston with Asians), but in a decade or so I'm not sure that handful of facilies will be enough to adequately meet the needs of all the young bulls. Im also unsure of any facilities that could/would be willing to dedicate solely to males, but I am truthfully more unfamiliar with the individual african holders so I can't make any guesses there.


I think therein the issue lies. Several of these young bulls are growing up in facilities without witnessing breeding themselves. We've seen the effects firsthand with Louie and Kedar. Both have, to my knowledge, "practiced" breeding behaviors but never managed to quite understand exactly what to do. Both come from facilities that haven't had a natural bred calf in decades. I'm not even sure having a bull mentor in a non-breeding setting would be of value in that department sadly.

Thankfully the only facility I'm really concerned about repeating itself when it comes to this is Indianapolis. Given, they could choose to finally make the switch to having an onsite breeding bull, but I can't say I'm betting on it. Which is a huge shame given that little Jabari is one of the most valuable young males in the region.
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Oakland Zoo last I remember stating they were interested in being a bachelor facility for African elephants though idk if that’s still currently the case. I’ve heard rumors (though I can’t confirm) that San Diego Zoo will be used as a bachelor facility for African elephants, and the San Diego Zoo Safari Park will house their breeding herd of elephants. Birmingham Zoo in Alabama is currently a bachelor facility for African elephants too as far as I’m aware.

With Indianapolis Zoos breeding intentions, only the zoo knows what’s in the best interests of their elephants. Indianapolis Zoo with Kedar has stated before he tried to court Zahara but was too young and wasn’t ready (I actually heard she might of rejected to breed with him), either way we don’t know.
 
I don't know if this has been discussed already. Would it be possible to import bulls from Europe ? Some of Tel Aviv bulls (espacially from NORRIS) are very will represented and are looking as good breeders or potential good breeders.

Europe has also a lacking of proven breeding bulls for sure but some of them are over represented.
 
GPN said:
I don't know if this has been discussed already. Would it be possible to import bulls from Europe ? Some of Tel Aviv bulls (espacially from NORRIS) are very will represented and are looking as good breeders or potential good breeders.

Europe has also a lacking of proven breeding bulls for sure but some of them are over represented.
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Yes it's possible and a few facilities have looked into it. At the moment the Asian population is in need of some new genetics.

With the Tel Aviv bulls though, they are related to a lot of the American population via the Motek x Warda line so probably wouldn't be as desirable as some of the other bulls within the population.
 
Jambo said:
Yes it's possible and a few facilities have looked into it. At the moment the Asian population is in need of some new genetics.

With the Tel Aviv bulls though, they are related to a lot of the American population via the Motek x Warda line so probably wouldn't be as desirable as some of the other bulls within the population.
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and if Tel Aviv wants to continue breeding their asians they need a new bull but I don’t know how that’s going to happen.
 
I was more thinking about the african population...

Of course it would be also great for the Asian. Some Emmen, Rotterdam bulls could be right candidates.
 
GPN said:
I was more thinking about the african population...

Of course it would be also great for the Asian. Some Emmen, Rotterdam bulls could be right candidates.
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Tel Aviv is no longer breeding Africans. They had sequestered their bull from the cows due to an attack on a keeper. One of the cows is his mother. That zoo has no problem with inbreeding with both species. Father to daughter or son to mother or brother to sister.
 
Jambo said:
Yes it's possible and a few facilities have looked into it. At the moment the Asian population is in need of some new genetics.

With the Tel Aviv bulls though, they are related to a lot of the American population via the Motek x Warda line so probably wouldn't be as desirable as some of the other bulls within the population.
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Definitely no more animals from the Motek/Warda line should be imported for a few decades or so at least. That line is in clear domination of NA's Asian breeding population currently and several of those individuals are related via full siblings. Any of Razda's numerous sons would be perfect candidates, as would really any bull unrelated to Calvin or Motek.

ZCChip said:
Tel Aviv is no longer breeding Africans. They had sequestered their bull from the cows due to an attack on a keeper. One of the cows is his mother. That zoo has no problem with inbreeding with both species. Father to daughter or son to mother or brother to sister.
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Europe's african population is definitely in worse shape than NA's. To my understanding they have even fewer bulls and their animals are inbred rather frequently in some facilities. While more proven bulls are needed in NA, I do believe in terms of genetic value any imports wouldn't really add that much in the long run. In about a decade's time we very well may have 4+ founder bulls breeding, which imo is more than enough to begin to fix the popular sire effect that Mabu and Jackson have created. If these young bulls aren't breeding within the next decade then maybe looking elswhere would be best, but for now it would probably be smarter to work with the valuable animals we have
 
Europe's african population is definitely in worse shape than NA's.
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Europe's population is not actually in worse shape the US, although it seems that way their breeding population is much larger and has more founders than the US. With facilities like Wuppertal and Cabarceno and most recently Beekse Bergen being breeding powerhouses, and facilities like Stoso, Boras and Halle producing calves every few years
 
Thanks for your long answer.

I know that Tel Aviv is stopping elephant breeding but Tel Aviv genetic is very represented in Europe and not only by inbred animals.
Mr.Ivory said:
Europe's population is not actually in worse shape the US, although it seems that way their breeding population is much larger and has more founders than the US. With facilities like Wuppertal and Cabarceno and most recently Beekse Bergen being breeding powerhouses, and facilities like Stoso, Boras and Halle producing calves every few years
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Beekse Bergen is actually a mix of Cabarceno and Wuppertal's genetic.

Another question is about Moja's matriline. Moja is currently living in Wildlife Safari but her 2 daughters are living in Pitsburg. Is there any willing or possibility to reunite them?
 
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