Taronga Zoo Future of Taronga Zoo (Speculation / Fantasy)

[Tiger91]

I’ve been misinformed it would appear, I was told prior to their move to the US they were a family in itself, but I did minimal research especially in comparison to other topics I’ve discussed. Although my point does stand, moving Elephants in and out of social structures cause some problems, same goes for when they die. Although they are nowhere near the intellectual level as, for instance, chimps, they are capable of feeling and expressing general emotions.

Elephants would probably eclipse chimps on an intellectual level, they show more empathy and mourning and were recorded doing so earlier then chimps. Even tho chimps have been intensively researched for longer.

The African imports essentially resuscitated the African elephant breeding program in North America. They had a population where they had a larger non breeding number then actual viable breeding animals. The South African imports have bred multiple times, to the point where San Diego wild animal park actually split there herd. Ad now both herds are breeding and have sent progeny to other herds to start/ continue breeding.

 

[Tiger91]

Essentially this is a result of the recent acquisitions from the 2016 import finally breeding; and whilst it did take them a few years to do so, the results are finally showing.

Similarly, the initial import from 2003 also had their fair share of results around the same time (late 2000s, early 2010s) but this has since dropped off somewhat due to the founder bulls being sent to other institutions.

Wasn't there also a back up of calves as well. Where the receiving institutions had to halt breeding until space was made available and animals were able to be shifted around.

 

[Zoofan15]

Elephants would probably eclipse chimps on an intellectual level, they show more empathy and mourning and were recorded doing so earlier than chimps. Even tho chimps have been intensively researched for longer.

Chimpanzees rank higher than elephants in terms of intelligence. While elephants are complex animals, their social structure isn’t as intricate as chimpanzees. Taronga’s community are an example of that, with multiple family groups representing dynasties forged over decades with complex political alliances determining ranking and the balance of power.

 

[Jambo]

Wasn't there also a back up of calves as well. Where the receiving institutions had to halt breeding until space was made available and animals were able to be shifted around.

Yes that was the case; San Diego's herd was split with two cows and one bull being sent over to Reid Park to establish a second herd there.

In essence the breeding program has been quite successful thus far and bulls have rotated between facilities in order to further develop the genetic viability of the population. With a mostly ageing population though, there should be spaces opening up in the coming decade.

 

[Tiger91]

Chimpanzees rank higher than elephants in terms of intelligence. While elephants are complex animals, their social structure isn’t as intricate as chimpanzees. Taronga’s community are an example of that, with multiple family groups representing dynasties forged over decades with complex political alliances determining ranking and the balance of power.

Elephant cognition is believed to be at least at the level of chimp and cetaceans. Elephants have a diverse social structure which is theorised to have cultures akin to the way orcas do. They smash emotional intelligence tests and tests of empathy, as well as recollection and memory. They are able to be translocated and learn from others etc, they literally hold funerals for there dead.
Chimps are incredibly intelligent and there close relation to humans has helped them have a leg up in being tested. But the days of them being seen as the next smartest after humans is gone. However I think cetaceans will take out the cake of smartest. The part of there brains that processes complex emotions is the largest of any known animal.

 

[Tiger91]

Yes that was the case; San Diego's herd was split with two cows and one bull being sent over to Reid Park to establish a second herd there.

In essence the breeding program has been quite successful thus far and bulls have rotated between facilities in order to further develop the genetic viability of the population. With a mostly ageing population though, there should be spaces opening up in the coming decade.

Yes! I remember that animal activist had a field day with it. When in reality elephant herd split all the time. Especially when droughts hit.
The Reid park cows were also sent with offspring and they have continued to grow there herd.
It will be exciting to see the first generation cows start breeding/continue breeding and bolster numbers. They have had fantastic social upbringings from those herds.

 

[Zoofan15]

Elephant cognition is believed to be at least at the level of chimp and cetaceans. Elephants have a diverse social structure which is theorised to have cultures akin to the way orcas do. They smash emotional intelligence tests and tests of empathy, as well as recollection and memory. They are able to be translocated and learn from others etc, they literally hold funerals for there dead.
Chimps are incredibly intelligent and there close relation to humans has helped them have a leg up in being tested. But the days of them being seen as the next smartest after humans is gone. However I think cetaceans will take out the cake of smartest. The part of there brains that processes complex emotions is the largest of any known animal.

Every source I’ve come across ranks great apes as the most intelligent. Older studies say chimpanzee; more recent studies say orangutan. Dolphins follow on after. Elephants are fourth, followed by pigs, crows, parrots, octopi and rats (in varying order).

This is a future of Taronga Zoo thread, so maybe let’s get back to discussing the zoo now.

 

[loganjmuir]

Sumatran tiger export:

Memphis Zoo in the US has applied for a permit to import two tigers from Taronga Zoo:

1.0 Pemanah (17/01/2019) Clarence x Kartika
0.1 Mawar (17/01/2019) Clarence x Kartika

Mawar will transfer from Memphis Zoo to Point Defiance Zoo in Tacoma, Washington within 30-60 days of her arrival in Memphis.

Reported by @Elena in the Australasian Sumatran tiger population thread.

Am I correct in saying Taronga, following their departure, will be left with 2.2? This could also mean Taronga plans to breed in the future. Exciting news and a big booster for Point Defiance.

 

[Zoofan15]

Am I correct in saying Taronga, following their departure, will be left with 2.2? This could also mean Taronga plans to breed in the future. Exciting news and a big booster for Point Defiance.

That’s correct. Taronga will be left with the following:

1.0 Kembali (20/08/2011) Satu x Jumilah
0.1 Kartika (20/08/2011) Satu x Jumilah
1.0 Clarence (22/08/2013) Ramalon x Kaitlyn
0.1 Tengah Malam (17/01/2019) Clarence x Kartika

Bear in mind also that Dubbo’s eldest tigers turn 17 and 18 this year, presenting an opportunity for Taronga to retire one of their elder three tigers (all housed seperately from each other).

I’m anticipating Taronga Zoo will import a male to breed with Tengah in the future. Had her survived, Auckland’s male cub would have been the natural choice; but there will hopefully be a male in the next litter.

Taronga have five exhibits (three on display; two off display), so would need to accomodate five groupings of tigers with the acquisition of a male. Even though it’d be a while before potential cubs would require housing in a sixth grouping, it’d be useful to identify an avenue for transferring out one or more of the older trio (either retirement to Dubbo or to another zoo within the region e.g. Sydney Zoo, who has elderly hybrids).

 

[The Sleepy Hippo]

Every source I’ve come across ranks great apes as the most intelligent. Older studies say chimpanzee; more recent studies say orangutan. Dolphins follow on after. Elephants are fourth, followed by pigs, crows, parrots, octopi and rats (in varying order).

This is a future of Taronga Zoo thread, so maybe let’s get back to discussing the zoo now.

Dutch primatologist and ethologist, Fraans de Waal, has questioned whether humans are intelligent enough to know how intelligent other species are...
But I agree, interesting topic but not the topic of the thread. Was interesting reading each post

 

[Tiger91]

That’s correct. Taronga will be left with the following:

1.0 Kembali (20/08/2011) Satu x Jumilah
0.1 Kartika (20/08/2011) Satu x Jumilah
1.0 Clarence (22/08/2013) Ramalon x Kaitlyn
0.1 Tengah Malam (17/01/2019) Clarence x Kartika

Bear in mind also that Dubbo’s eldest tigers turn 17 and 18 this year, presenting an opportunity for Taronga to retire one of their elder three tigers (all housed seperately from each other).

I’m anticipating Taronga Zoo will import a male to breed with Tengah in the future. Had her survived, Auckland’s male cub would have been the natural choice; but there will hopefully be a male in the next litter.

Taronga have five exhibits (three on display; two off display), so would need to accomodate five groupings of tigers with the acquisition of a male. Even though it’d be a while before potential cubs would require housing in a sixth grouping, it’d be useful to identify an avenue for transferring out one or more of the older trio (either retirement to Dubbo or to another zoo within the region e.g. Sydney Zoo, who has elderly hybrids).

In an ideal world Clarence and kartika would go to Dubbo to replace there older tigers. I vaguely remember them being able to be housed together fairly well. So the possibility to house together or seperate would be there.
It would be good to see Kembali sent to a smaller regional zoo that wants Sumatran tigers. Thus helping to maintain sumatran holders and free up space at taronga. Allowing another litter of cubs to be bred.

 

[Zoofan15]

In an ideal world Clarence and kartika would go to Dubbo to replace there older tigers. I vaguely remember them being able to be housed together fairly well. So the possibility to house together or seperate would be there.
It would be good to see Kembali sent to a smaller regional zoo that wants Sumatran tigers. Thus helping to maintain sumatran holders and free up space at taronga. Allowing another litter of cubs to be bred.

Yes, it would be good if Clarence and Kartika could retire to Dubbo long term to free up the Taronga site for breeding. While Tengah descends from the well represented Nico-Meta line, her maternal great-grandmother (Assiqua) is sparsely represented; with Tengah likely to be her only breeding descendent going forward.

Presumably Taronga would want at least 3/5 exhibits filled for display purposes, so imagine a male would be imported (and breeding undertaken) while Kembali is still at Taronga. An additional two vacant exhibits are more than sufficient to accomodate the cubs as they grow.

Historically, Taronga have been proactive in importing outside the region (Assiqua, Satu etc.) so let’s hope they consider it again.

 

[Tiger91]

Yes, it would be good if Clarence and Kartika could retire to Dubbo long term to free up the Taronga site for breeding. While Tengah descends from the well represented Nico-Meta line, her maternal great-grandmother (Assiqua) is sparsely represented; with Tengah likely to be her only breeding descendent going forward.

Presumably Taronga would want at least 3/5 exhibits filled for display purposes, so imagine a male would be imported (and breeding undertaken) while Kembali is still at Taronga. An additional two vacant exhibits are more than sufficient to accomodate the cubs as they grow.

Historically, Taronga have been proactive in importing outside the region (Assiqua, Satu etc.) so let’s hope they consider it again.

It would be fantastic if we could import an unrelated male from Europe. Given we have just brought in American blood lines. Bringing in a European male to mix with there founder genes would diversify our regions genetics nicely.
On thinking on the issue, if they move Clarence and kartika. Keep tengah and kembali while importing a new male. I wouldn't be surprised to see both females produce a litter. They would have the space to accomodate it. Annnd they wouldn't turn down the increase in visitation that they bring. Especially with no majour developments to draw crowds outside of the reptile house happening.

 

[Zoofan15]

It would be fantastic if we could import an unrelated male from Europe. Given we have just brought in American blood lines. Bringing in a European male to mix with there founder genes would diversify our regions genetics nicely.
On thinking on the issue, if they move Clarence and kartika. Keep tengah and kembali while importing a new male. I wouldn't be surprised to see both females produce a litter. They would have the space to accomodate it. Annnd they wouldn't turn down the increase in visitation that they bring. Especially with no majour developments to draw crowds outside of the reptile house happening.

I agree Taronga undertaking an import of a male Sumatran tiger from outside the region would be ideal. It’s exciting to have Ramah and Zayana here in the region and breeding at Auckland Zoo, but in terms of sustaining the regional population long term, it’s not enough.

Ramah and Zayana are basically the Raja and Soraya of the 2000’s - fresh imports paired to create a valuable bloodline. However, Raja and Soraya were accompanied by an additional 11 imports between 2000 and 2008.

Kembali is a male and unlikely to play a future role in the breeding programme. I anticipate he’ll remain at Taronga, with the new breeding pair and their offspring occupying an additional two exhibits initially; with the other two available to manage any overflow (potentially needed in the event of a large litter as the cubs mature).

 

[Jambo]

Kembali is a male and unlikely to play a future role in the breeding programme. I anticipate he’ll remain at Taronga, with the new breeding pair and their offspring occupying an additional two exhibits initially; with the other two available to manage any overflow (potentially needed in the event of a large litter as the cubs mature).

I thought Taronga only had three exhibits? Or is there some BTS?

 

[Zoofan15]

I thought Taronga only had three exhibits? Or is there some BTS?

They have two BOH exhibits (in addition to the three on display exhibits). Here’s a map of the complex showing where they’re located and their size in relation to the on display exhibits:


Taronga Zoo Tiger Trek — lahznimmo architects

 

[Tiger91]

Kembali is a male and unlikely to play a future role in the breeding programme. I anticipate he’ll remain at Taronga, with the new breeding pair and their offspring occupying an additional two exhibits initially; with the other two available to manage any overflow (potentially needed in the event of a large litter as the cubs mature).

Ahaha my bad! for some reason I always thought he was female

 

[Zoofan15]

Ahaha my bad! for some reason I always thought he was female

No problem, though I will note that male Sumatran tigers are known for their impressive ruffs and Kembali has the largest ruff of any male in the region. He’s truly a magnificent specimen.

Incidentally, I would consider his mother, Jumilah, the prettiest female Sumatran tiger I’ve ever seen. They are a naturally striking species, but Jumilah was particularly stunning.

Kembali:


Credit: Taronga Zoo’s socials.

 

[Tiger91]

No problem, though I will note that male Sumatran tigers are known for their impressive ruffs and Kembali has the largest ruff of any male in the region. He’s truly a magnificent specimen.

Incidentally, I would consider his mother, Jumilah, the prettiest female Sumatran tiger I’ve ever seen. They are a naturally striking species, but Jumilah was particularly stunning.

Kembali:

View attachment 685126
Credit: Taronga Zoo’s socials.

I think I always assumed female, as I have never seen him on display. Or if I have I assumed it was Clarence. Most of my visits the cubs and kartika have been on display, and they like to climb the large fig tree in there exhibits. So I tend to gravitate there.

 

[Jambo]

I think I always assumed female, as I have never seen him on display. Or if I have I assumed it was Clarence. Most of my visits the cubs and kartika have been on display, and they like to climb the large fig tree in there exhibits. So I tend to gravitate there.

Yeah, Kembali usually gets run of the first tiger exhibit - I've seen him there fairly often when I visit. I actually tend to find it's Clarence more off display nowadays; especially with Kartika and the cubs having the second and third exhibit most of the time.