Question Regarding White/Albino Big Cats

Most zoos nowadays in the Uk have phased out white tigers with the exception of WMSP and the big cat Sanctuary. However, several zoos keep white lions, including Hertfordshire zoo, Lincolnshire wildlife park, WMSP and the Big cat sanctuary
 
I believe there are only 4 white tigers in uk now. I at smarden cat sanctuary 2 at West mid and 1 at Hamerton. They are all in their teens so won't b around for long. Uk don't breed them now but I believe some places either in Europe or USA still do. In the long run while I believe its not good for uk to have them for reasons we all know about if a couple of younger ones are avaliable perhaps they should come to uk for educational purposes ie showing today's youngsters that inbreeding etc isn't a good idea. Not all youngsters can learn from a book or pc and some understand more by face to face interaction etc.
 
sidcup said:
I believe there are only 4 white tigers in uk now. I at smarden cat sanctuary 2 at West mid and 1 at Hamerton. They are all in their teens so won't b around for long. Uk don't breed them now but I believe some places either in Europe or USA still do. In the long run while I believe its not good for uk to have them for reasons we all know about if a couple of younger ones are avaliable perhaps they should come to uk for educational purposes ie showing today's youngsters that inbreeding etc isn't a good idea. Not all youngsters can learn from a book or pc and some understand more by face to face interaction etc.
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I think that's what the few collections that still have white tigers do.

Like we've gone on in this thread the history about why white tigers should not be around, but they are basically a lesson that others need to know about so it doesn't happen again.
 
SSLees said:
I think that's what the few collections that still have white tigers do.

Like we've gone on in this thread the history about why white tigers should not be around, but they are basically a lesson that others need to know about so it doesn't happen again.
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I'd still like to know what 'regulations' you were referring to in your original question.

There are a few inconsistencies in the above argument, which refers continually to both in-breeding and hybridisation. Surely there is nothing more 'out-bred' than a hybrid! - even one between sub-species.

The recessive gene which controls this mutation occurred in the wild just like that with the 'white' lions - not in captivity like the white wallabies, and the huge number of mutation reptiles, waterfowl, parakeets, finches etc etc which currently occupy captive space and resources in many zoos, and private collections.

Presumably due to the low population numbers and greater range and mixing of blood-lines, a population of 'white' tigers was not able to establish in the wild, even though the gene originated there naturally. Lion populations being denser, naturally in-bred and restricted in wild range, allowed the gene to take hold and produce a population of mutated animals.

'White' tigers were selectively bred directly in captivity, and 'white' lions bred in the wild from populations controlled/pressured by man. Humans were involved in both, along with all the wallabies, finches, reptiles, the chickens that lay your breakfast eggs, the dog that lies in front of your fire, the bean-sprouts that go into your salad, the cows that produce your leather shoes - every plant and animal species that support your life - ALL were selectively bred by man., often with very considerable and deliberate in-breeding, or line-breeding as it is often called when it has a positive outcome.
 
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SSLees said:
Sorry my bad.

I was referring to the Association of Zoos and Aquariums that banned breeding for rare recessive alleles in 2011
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Does that include 'black' leopards and 'king' cheetahs? - not that many of those are bred in the UK!
I'm pretty sure the cheetah is both 'rare' and recessive' though melanism might not be in leopards as it isn't in the jungle cat.
Sorry for the diversion from the main topic.
 
SSLees said:
Sorry my bad.

I was referring to the Association of Zoos and Aquariums that banned breeding for rare recessive alleles in 2011
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Considering the fact the organisation in question is located in North America, the ban has no bearing on UK or indeed European collections - so in answer to your original question, a zoological collection in the UK which happened to produce an unexpected colour variant (whether leucistic, albino, melanistic or otherwise) within their captive cat population would not be impacted by this ruling whatsoever :p
 
ZooNews2024 said:
Does that include 'black' leopards and 'king' cheetahs? - not that many of those are bred in the UK!
I'm pretty sure the cheetah is both 'rare' and recessive' though melanism might not be in leopards as it isn't in the jungle cat.
Sorry for the diversion from the main topic.
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I'd assume so, different result yeah. But there would be people using the same method to make it happen?

TeaLovingDave said:
Considering the fact the organisation in question is located in North America, the ban has no bearing on UK or indeed European collections - so in answer to your original question, a zoological collection in the UK which happened to produce an unexpected colour variant (whether leucistic, albino, melanistic or otherwise) within their captive cat population would not be impacted by this ruling whatsoever :p
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Well... now I feel very stupid, so sorry for making a pointless thread.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Considering the fact the organisation in question is located in North America, the ban has no bearing on UK or indeed European collections - so in answer to your original question, a zoological collection in the UK which happened to produce an unexpected colour variant (whether leucistic, albino, melanistic or otherwise) within their captive cat population would not be impacted by this ruling whatsoever :p
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BIAZA has a similar sort of thing though don't they? At least a frowny face about it if not an actual "don't do this"?
 
Chlidonias said:
BIAZA has a similar sort of thing though don't they? At least a frowny face about it if not an actual "don't do this"?
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Just looked back on Big Cat's Sanctuary on Baikal (their white tiger male) where I found out about it, and BIAZA does not allow intentionally breeding. But as others have said, unexpected ones would not be affected by it.
 
I don't believe the AZA has any color variant big cats left; if they do it would probably be in the single digits. I would be very interested to hear otherwise; trying to look into this has usually brought me to past examples only.

I did have the pleasure of seeing a white tiger at Hamerton during my UK visit.
 
JVM said:
I don't believe the AZA has any color variant big cats left; if they do it would probably be in the single digits. I would be very interested to hear otherwise; trying to look into this has usually brought me to past examples only.

I did have the pleasure of seeing a white tiger at Hamerton during my UK visit.
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Chlidonias said:
BIAZA has a similar sort of thing though don't they? At least a frowny face about it if not an actual "don't do this"?
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At the risk of derailing this conversation further; is their position just related to cats, or does it go further? The man 'made' albino wallabies or mutation reptiles etc spring to mind - and as Hamerton has been mentioned above, I wonder what is their position regarding something like the Golden Possums? Do these fit the description of a rare recessive allele?. It is quite natural and occurs in the wild (like the white Tiger gene) and is sometimes called a 'morph' not a 'mutation', but it looks as though it is recessive too and in zoos has been 'selected' by man - very similar to a black Leopard or Jaguar.
 
SSLees said:
Sorry my bad.

I was referring to the Association of Zoos and Aquariums that banned breeding for rare recessive alleles in 2011
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I read the paper and they didn't completely ban breeding recessive alleles, they banned inbreeding specifically for said alleles, and also any breeding of harmful genes + they aren't a fan of resources that could go to breeding programs for conservation going to recessive gene breeding programs.

"Occasional expression of a rare and deleterious allele may occur by chance, but should not be ‘forced’; rather, these traits should be allowed to appear at their naturally occurring frequencies. Retaining all alleles at their naturally occurring frequencies helps retain genetic diversity and provides populations with adaptive potential in the face of environmental change. The standard genetic management strategy in zoos, using mean kinship rather than phenotype to select breeding animals, is specifically intended to maintain gene diversity and minimize inbreeding (Ballou & Lacy, 1995)."
"From an education perspective, intentional inbreeding for the production of anomalous phenotypes is in direct contrast to the mission of modern zoos."
"Thus, AZA-accredited institutions should not engage in intentional inbreeding practices for the purpose of producing anomalous phenotypes from the perspectives of welfare, education, population management, and conservation."

They have a specific issue with aberrant animals being ambassadors and not being labeled properly, which could lead to people thinking they are different species needing conservation, but don't ban owning or breeding them.
 
JVM said:
I don't believe the AZA has any color variant big cats left; if they do it would probably be in the single digits. I would be very interested to hear otherwise; trying to look into this has usually brought me to past examples only.
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Only black leopards. Fort Worth and San Diego should both have a female (amur and african).
 
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