What are some species that should never be kept in zoos?

The repeated references within this thread to hoatzin not surviving long in captivity are more than a shade overblown, given the fact that Bronx Zoo kept *and* bred the species for a total of 15 years.... whilst in contrast, the captive longevity record for Indri - a species people keep comparing to the hoatzin in this regard - is closer to 15 days.
 
I don't know what makes you think this.

I am firmly of the belief that all animal species can thrive in captivity. A small minority are impractically difficult to keep (ex. baleen whales) but most animals can thrive in captivity if kept in the right conditions.

Many animals that we don't currently *think* can are perfectly capable of doing so, we just haven't yet discovered the methods they require. Sure, right now it looks like animals like Indri and Hoatzin do not survive well in captivity, but a century ago we thought gorillas were impossible to keep, and today we know that ay zoo with enough space and know how can keep and breed a troop. With some more experimentation, I am sure we could figure out how to comfortably keep Indri, Hoatzin, or nearly any other species we don't currently think "thrives" in captivity.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, its more about how much time, resources, interest and lets be honest individuals we will be willing to take to work out their husbandry requirements . I'm sure if enough zoos were willing to invest, we could have hard to keep species/ groups with healthy captive populations. its just that zoos now are more focused on keeping healthy populations of animals we already have
 
Pest control maybe?
Iirc cat's aren't the most efficient pest control method out there, and this can also backfire if the cat contracts some disease from the pest itself (E.g toxoplasmosis).

They can also be used for educational purposes as other domestic animals
I personally don't think that an animal most people see everyday and know everything about can be as educationally useful as most domestic animals that people tend to overlook.

Both Leipzig and Vienna off the top of my head keep cats, as I believe they are strays that the zoos take on - living in the Giraffe and Elephant houses respectively. Obviously not traditional housing given they can come and go inside the exhibit, but I think that's no different to having free-roaming guinea fowl or peacocks.
Having free-roaming cats sounds like a recipe for disaster, not only considering the already mentioned diseases they might end up transmitting to the other animals, but depending on the zoo layout they might get killed or kill something, there's a very famous video on Youtube of a stray cat that wandered inside of a lion habitat and end up getting ripped apart, for example.
 
And also to keep faithful to the spirit of the thread: Domestic cats. I can't think of a single reason to keep cats in a zoo. I can understand why to keep dogs mainly if they are there to help with stressful animals such as cheetahs, or other domestic animals such as goats and pigs, but I simply cannot understand why someone would keep a cat in a zoo.
I personally don't think that an animal most people see everyday and know everything about can be as educationally useful as most domestic animals that people tend to overlook.
I think the point of the thread is "what animals shouldn't be kept in zoos", not "what animals don't you like".
 
I think the point of the thread is "what animals shouldn't be kept in zoos", not "what animals don't you like".
And where exactly did I say I don't like cats? All that I said is that I don't think they should be in the zoo and the latter replied I am just defending my opinion. It sounds odd to assume that only because of this i don't like cats, lol.
 
Very few species thrive in zoos unfortunately and we are still narrowing down to the handful of species that can actually thrive and away from the practice of managing species that struggle in captivity.

Indri are one of the more interesting examples, they do not appear to survive in captivity.

I don't know what makes you think this.

I am firmly of the belief that all animal species can thrive in captivity. A small minority are impractically difficult to keep (ex. baleen whales) but most animals can thrive in captivity if kept in the right conditions.

Many animals that we don't currently *think* can are perfectly capable of doing so, we just haven't yet discovered the methods they require. Sure, right now it looks like animals like Indri and Hoatzin do not survive well in captivity, but a century ago we thought gorillas were impossible to keep, and today we know that ay zoo with enough space and know how can keep and breed a troop. With some more experimentation, I am sure we could figure out how to comfortably keep Indri, Hoatzin, or nearly any other species we don't currently think "thrives" in captivity.

@birdsandbats said a lot of what I was planning to, however I will add on that I'd like to qualify this post. It isn't that "very few species thrive in captivity", but that "very few species have thrived in captivity so far". It was only in recent decades where we truly figured out how to keep and breed species such as cheetahs, giant anteaters, and clouded leopards. Even if we take an extreme example of a species that can't thrive in zoos now, such as blobfish or great white sharks, doesn't mean they won't thrive in the future. Could specially pressurized tanks be developed in thirty years which allow blobfish to thrive and be cared for with robotic arms? Could the idea of an "endless pool" be repurposed in a way that allows pelagic sharks to be housed successfully? Only time will tell. I'm not necessarily saying these are ideas that should happen, just that they could be theoretically possible. Many of the species that are being phased out of zoos also aren't because they "don't thrive" from a welfare perspective, but because there is simply limited space in zoos that limits the amount of species we can house. Asiatic black bears, for example, don't thrive in zoos any less than any of the other bear species, however are being phased out simply because there isn't enough space to house all eight bear species in AZA zoos.

I also think we need to change the way we define what species "thrive" in zoos. Many on this thread are defining "thriving" simply by whether a species stays alive for a full lifespan and is able to breed successfully. If that was the case, we'd be saying that polar bears "thrived" when living in this exhibit:
full
Photo By: @snowleopard

Or in this exhibit:
full
Photo By: @snowleopard

We have more contemporary measures of welfare that can be used to truly determine whether an animal can thrive in zoos, and it may mean that species should be housed in better conditions than what they've bred successfully in, but in other species it may mean that we can acknowledge that rescued individuals may be able to thrive in zoos even if reproduction isn't desired or even possible.
 
Because they can harm the other animals or get themself killed if free-roaming/stray and giving them a exhibith sounds pointless? (the latter isn't a problem of its own, but it's an answer for the thread, which is my initial point).
This thread is about being kept in zoos, so the first point is irrelevant.

And clearly a lot of zoos disagree with the second, because plenty of zoos keep cats.
 
I don't know what makes you think this.

I am firmly of the belief that all animal species can thrive in captivity. A small minority are impractically difficult to keep (ex. baleen whales) but most animals can thrive in captivity if kept in the right conditions.

Many animals that we don't currently *think* can are perfectly capable of doing so, we just haven't yet discovered the methods they require. Sure, right now it looks like animals like Indri and Hoatzin do not survive well in captivity, but a century ago we thought gorillas were impossible to keep, and today we know that ay zoo with enough space and know how can keep and breed a troop. With some more experimentation, I am sure we could figure out how to comfortably keep Indri, Hoatzin, or nearly any other species we don't currently think "thrives" in captivity.
I used to feel this way, too, but I no longer believe so.

The days of zoos importing species from the wild to "experiment" are over. There are not going to be Indri or hoatzin in captivity tomorrow and they will not follow the track of gorillas, a species that many zoos kept in awful, unacceptable conditions before they figured out how to manage them. We have the species we're going to have and introducing new species is largely a net negative for improving the welfare of what we already have. Space is incredibly valuable and we can't sacrifice it for silly things.

Let's be honest, if a zoo were to even flirt with importing indri or hoatzin tomorrow, we would all recognize that as a horrible idea. There would be no "ooh, let's see what happens".

Many of the species that are being phased out of zoos also aren't because they "don't thrive" from a welfare perspective, but because there is simply limited space in zoos that limits the amount of species we can house. Asiatic black bears, for example, don't thrive in zoos any less than any of the other bear species, however are being phased out simply because there isn't enough space to house all eight bear species in AZA zoos.

I also think we need to change the way we define what species "thrive" in zoos. Many on this thread are defining "thriving" simply by whether a species stays alive for a full lifespan and is able to breed successfully. If that was the case, we'd be saying that polar bears "thrived" when living in this exhibit:
The second paragraph is exactly what I was trying to say that you and @birdsandbats seem to be arguing against? Asiatic black bears were held in exactly the same kinds of exhibits you're showing for polar bears to argue they did not thrive. Maybe the fact there isn't enough space to house all eight bears is proof they weren't thriving, I would argue.

Bears are a fantastic example and really represent the decline of US zoos. There was hardly a single decent bear exhibit in the United States until the nineties and now we're still struggling to get rid of the ugly concrete grottos left and right that these animals were left to rot in for decades. Polar bears are one of the best examples of a species that has persisted in captivity but never thrived. All of the data shows more deaths than births, and I suspect you'd find the same for all of the bear species kept in captivity.
 
Bears are a fantastic example and really represent the decline of US zoos. There was hardly a single decent bear exhibit in the United States until the nineties and now we're still struggling to get rid of the ugly concrete grottos left and right that these animals were left to rot in for decades. Polar bears are one of the best examples of a species that has persisted in captivity but never thrived. All of the data shows more deaths than births, and I suspect you'd find the same for all of the bear species kept in captivity.

That might be a very American perspective.... Polar bears in Europe are on a very tight breeding regime because of a lack of space, not because they don't thrive. But there are just not enough zoos with enough space since many city zoos have phased them out (often with good reason).

For other bears in Europe a non-thriving population is more due to a geriatric population, in Asiatic black bearsn or a lack of males, in sun bears. Not because those species can't do well in captivity.
 
Theater of the Sea, while not a "traditional" zoo, has dozens of cats living on its grounds. Initially part of a feral colony that just happened to live there, new strays periodically turn up, and very occasionally, needy cats are adopted.

The cats are a big draw IMHO. While not all are friendly, many are social enough to enjoy a good scratch or two behind the ears. The mostly outdoor setting helps prevent odor build up and seeing them lounge around here, there, and everywhere adds to relaxed atmosphere.

Domestic cats, especially strays, carry Toxoplasmosis.
This is a very serious disease for wild cat spp, primates and marsupials especially.
No responsible zoo would allow feral cats on its grounds.
 
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I personally don't think that an animal most people see everyday and know everything about can be as educationally useful as most domestic animals that people tend to overlook.
I did not know about toxoplasmosis, so thank you for making me aware of that. However, I still believe zoos can keep cats as exhibit animals. Them being an everyday species doesn't mean people know nor care a lot about them and can still be educational as farm animals.
 
Domestic cats, especially strays, carry Toxoplasmosis.
This is a very serious disease for wild cat spp, primates and marsupials especially.
No responsible zoo would allow feral cats on its grounds.
They probably don't have much a of choice though, given how abundant Feral Cats are in many areas.
 
And also to keep faithful to the spirit of the thread: Domestic cats. I can't think of a single reason to keep cats in a zoo. I can understand why to keep dogs mainly if they are there to help with stressful animals such as cheetahs, or other domestic animals such as goats and pigs, but I simply cannot understand why someone would keep a cat in a zoo.

I mean at least one zoo I’ve been to has a cat just loose in the barn in its farm complex. His name is Waldo.
 
I did not know about toxoplasmosis, so thank you for making me aware of that. However, I still believe zoos can keep cats as exhibit animals. Them being an everyday species doesn't mean people know nor care a lot about them and can still be educational as farm animals.
As a caged exhibit animal a domestic cat would be no more of a disease risk to other animals in a zoo collection, than a wild one. The desirability or relevance of such as an exhibit, is a different matter.
Feral cats can be trapped or shot, like any other pest species. In the UK they are the most serious of all invasive species, but the domestic cat is not included on the list of banned species, so there is no control on numbers or ownership, unlike Ring-tailed Coats for example, which despite being no threat to anything, are banned.
 
I personally don't think that an animal most people see everyday and know everything about can be as educationally useful as most domestic animals that people tend to overlook.
But people don't "know everything about" cats is the thing. Given that outdoor domestic cats are one of the leading causes of death in migratory songbirds, I'd argue that cats are one of the most important species to educate about from a conservation perspective.

As a caged exhibit animal a domestic cat would be no more of a disease risk to other animals in a zoo collection, than a wild one. The desirability or relevance of such as an exhibit, is a different matter.
All zoos have certain animals that are a zoonotic disease risk, it's just the reality of being a zoo. Responsible zoos, however, are the ones which have protocols in place to limit this disease risk as much as possible, such as PPE for zookeepers, separate enrichment items for high-risk species, and designing keeper sections with zoonosis in mind. So yeah, having a domestic cat exhibit isn't any more concerning from a disease perspective than a zoo exhibiting any other species that is a known disease vector.

The days of zoos importing species from the wild to "experiment" are over. There are not going to be Indri or hoatzin in captivity tomorrow and they will not follow the track of gorillas, a species that many zoos kept in awful, unacceptable conditions before they figured out how to manage them. We have the species we're going to have and introducing new species is largely a net negative for improving the welfare of what we already have. Space is incredibly valuable and we can't sacrifice it for silly things.

See, I don't think we "have the species we're going to have" though. Imports will be few and far between, however there have been new species introduced to AZA zoos in recent years nonetheless. Some birds in particular have become really common in zoos despite not being present a few decades ago. Examples: blue-bellied rollers (1996), crested couas (2003), Baer's pochard (2005), and scaly-sided merganser (2010). To throw a mammal into the mix, Visayan warty pigs (2002).

While new species in zoos are going to be few and far between, I don't think there is any reason to avoid bringing in a new species if there is a particularly compelling reason to do so. In some instances, for example a threatened local species, I'd actually argue zoos have a responsibility to attempt captive breeding programs when they could have direct benefits to the wild population. If Bronx Zoo didn't import Kihansi spray toads in 2001, the species would be extinct today. Surely, if another instance like this occurs in the near future, I'd hope zoos take the initiative to conserve a fascinating species.

Asiatic black bears were held in exactly the same kinds of exhibits you're showing for polar bears to argue they did not thrive. Maybe the fact there isn't enough space to house all eight bears is proof they weren't thriving, I would argue.
Yes, bears were not thriving in historical exhibits. That doesn't mean that bears can't thrive in zoos. One of my local zoos, Roger Williams Park Zoo, holds one of the six remaining Asiatic black bears in the AZA. George may not be part of a breeding program anymore, and is quite geriatric now, but nonetheless I'd argue that all of the welfare indicators show that he thrives at the zoo. He lives in an excellent exhibit with plenty of space and complexity, his caretakers provide plenty of enrichment, and he has access to the most advanced veterinary care whenever needed. There's no reason that Asiatic black bears can't thrive in zoos, and the choice was made to phase them out not due to their ability to thrive, but due to limited space.

Yes, there isn't enough space to house all eight bear species, and yes, many bears in zoos weren't thriving, but it doesn't mean that, say, the AZA-managed sloth bear, or the frequently rescued North American black bear, is any more capable of thriving in zoos than the phase-out Asiatic black bear.

Bears are a fantastic example and really represent the decline of US zoos. There was hardly a single decent bear exhibit in the United States until the nineties and now we're still struggling to get rid of the ugly concrete grottos left and right that these animals were left to rot in for decades. Polar bears are one of the best examples of a species that has persisted in captivity but never thrived. All of the data shows more deaths than births, and I suspect you'd find the same for all of the bear species kept in captivity.

Well the data for some bear species is going to be very different seeing that two of them (North American black bear and grizzly bear) are almost exclusively housed as rescues in AZA zoos. Yet if I look at the data for sloth bears, the AZA population has more or less stayed between 30 and 40 individuals since 1990. Some years might have more deaths than births, but other years will be the opposite. However, I don't think it matters if there are more deaths or births when answering the question "does x species thrive in zoos?". A rescued North American black bear can certainly live a life worth living in zoos, and so could an individual sloth bear that hasn't been given a breeding recommendation. Conversely, just because an animal is a prolific breeder and has sired a lot of offspring (say- Brookfield Zoo's old polar bear pair, which lived in one of the photos I linked in my last post) doesn't mean it was necessarily thriving.
 
Domestic cats, especially strays, carry Toxoplasmosis.
This is a very serious disease for wild cat spp, primates and marsupials especially.
No responsible zoo would allow feral cats on its grounds.

Theater of the Sea doesn't house primates, or marsupials, and certainly not any wild cat species.

They have: Atlantic bottlenose dolphins, California sea lions, Green sea turtles, a Hawksbill sea turtle, two American alligators, an American/Cuban hybrid crocodile, a Green iguana, a Blue and gold macaw, a Scarlet macaw, a Military macaw, two Hyacinth macaws, a Yellow-collard macaw, a Salmon-crested cockatoo, two White cockatoos, an African gray parrot, Nurse sharks, Stingrays, and only goodness knows how many varieties of tropical fish.

I'm not certain how much of a danger Toxoplasmosis is to any of those species, but I'd wager that the concern is limited at best.

Allowing feral and stray cats to live within zoo grounds can definitely be an option for some facilities. Especially if the cats themselves are fed daily, provided with clean drinking water, vaccinated, tested for common feline diseases, sterilized, and provided with regular vet care like Theater of the Sea's cats are.
 
Allowing feral and stray cats to live within zoo grounds can definitely be an option for some facilities. Especially if the cats themselves are fed daily, provided with clean drinking water, vaccinated, tested for common feline diseases, sterilized, and provided with regular vet care like Theater of the Sea's cats are.

Of course having stray cats is an option.
But as none of these measures you list will have ANY effect on the cats carrying Toxoplasmosis at this zoo or any other - and being a continuous disease threat to many mammal groups.
This disease is found in a large percentage of cat owners, and in addition to the threat to those other groups of mammals, can sometimes be very serious in humans.
Toxoplasmosis - Symptoms and causes
https://wildlifehealthaustralia.com...mmals/Toxoplasmosis_of_Australian_Mammals.pdf
 
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Of course having stray cats is an option.
But as none of these measures will have any effect on the cats carrying Toxoplasmosis, and being a continuous disease threat to many mammal groups.

You seem to have missed the point of my reply to you.

Which was that Theater of the Sea's cat care program clearly works for them, and indeed, even seems to increase the appeal of the place. Ergo, other zoos in similar circumstances could likely replicate that success if they choose to do so.

The issue of stray and feral cats running amuck has no easy answer, although I wager that zoos committing to having them shot and killed, even out of a concern for Toxoplasmosis, would be a PR nightmare.
 
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