New Elephant holding facilities in US Zoos?

[tigris115]

Dallas has a pregnant female currently? I don't recall an announcement.


100%. I think we honestly are doing pretty decent with the number of breeding holders and holders in general. We have to keep in mind that elephant breeding is a global effort, and that the US isn't operating completely alone in their program. Any current facilities with large, growing herds and well-made facilities are incredibly unlikely to phase out, and we will likely see a few current geriatric animal holders elect to rennovate and hold breeding herds like Tulsa and Cincinnati.


Anytime a case regarding Happy has made it to court, the law has sided with the zoo. Despite unideal living situations, it's evident that Happy is too old and has had too much of a complicated social life to ever make it ethical to shove her into a completely new situation. If Bronx would elect to build an entire new complex, then I'm sure the general public and NY law would welcome it with open arms. It would indeed be a complicated project, but I have little doubt that Bronx would make a fabulous exhibit.
The last time a law banning Elephants in captivity was passed in the US was 20 years ago. Not saying it will never happen again, but if those sentiments were shared by all lawmakers then we've seen multiple opportunities for similar bans to come up. US Lawmakers tend to be fairly fond of their local zoos, and regard ARAs as nuisances like most of us do. San Francisco feels like a unique case since iirc it's not a very well regarded zoo in the first place. Especially not 20 years ago with hideously outdated elephant standards in place at the time.

I like your optimism

 

[tigris115]

San Francisco feels like a unique case since iirc it's not a very well regarded zoo in the first place. Especially not 20 years ago with hideously outdated elephant standards in place at the time.

I do agree San Fran's biggest problem is just how unloved it is by the local government

It has so much potential but it's not being properly exploited

 

[DavidBrown]

I fully believe that Bronx Zoo will commit to elephants in a new exhibit going forward, despite their lack of stated plans for a new exhibit, and Bronx certainly has the ability to commit to a really impressive elephant complex.

This seems very unlikely. WCS has stated that they are getting out of elephants once the current ones pass, and they have not indicated any change from that philosophy in over a decade now. I talked to someone there in the early 2000s who said that they had considered building a very large elephant complex within Wild Asia and decided not to even at that time.

 

[15399]

This seems very unlikely. WCS has stated that they are getting out of elephants once the current ones pass, and they have not indicated any change from that philosophy in over a decade now. I talked to someone there in the early 2000s who said that they had considered building a very large elephant complex within Wild Asia and decided not to even at that time.

Can you point me to anything stating they are "getting out of elephants"? Everything I've seen was qualified with something like "we won't keep elephants in this way ever again".

So if that's what happens, the monorail will have an empty exhibit?

Well the monorail is going to run into some serious problems in a decade or so anyways. Interest in Asian ungulates is really low in the AZA, and in some cases Bronx is the only (or one of very few) holders of the various deer, gaur, etc., on the monorail. Especially given the challenges with moving deer across state lines and the near-impossibility of importing new ungulates, Bronx Zoo will likely no longer be able to have quite the variety of ungulate species on the monorail as they do currently anyways, meaning they'll need to seriously consider how they'd like to use the space on that ride.

 

[15399]

I never heard of this. Seems asinine but I assume it's that Jane Goodall act

No- Jane Goodall Act is a contemporary Canada-wide act that has yet to pass (and is supported by each of Canada's AZA-accredited facilities, might I add). I was referring in 2011 when Toronto's City Council forced the zoo to send its last three elephants to PAWS. You can read about the decision here, needless to say it was a bit of a mess- and resulted in Toronto temporarily losing its AZA accreditation: Elephant tug of war: The story of the Toronto Zoo transfer

New York seems the next city to make such a law, given all the slander the NhRP has been flinging at them regarding Happy.

I strongly suspect Los Angeles will pass a bill banning elephants in the near future. Billy has similarly been a target by ARA groups, and bills have come close before: Councilman Renews Complaint Over LA Zoo’s Treatment of Billy the Elephant – NBC Los Angeles

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Interest in Asian ungulates is really low in the AZA, and in some cases Bronx is the only (or one of very few) holders of the various deer, gaur, etc., on the monorail.

Many casual zoogoers choose to ride the monorail for the "bigger" species anyway (Elephants, rhinos, tigers), and loosing elephants will be a decent blow to the popularity of the attraction (a pay-to-ride attraction might I add). It certianly wouldn't be an unpopular decision to phase out of several ungulate species once their current individuals pass and invest in an elephant complex, and might even extend the lifespan of the monorail.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I strongly suspect Los Angeles will pass a bill banning elephants in the near future. Billy has similarly been a target by ARA groups, and bills have come close before: Councilman Renews Complaint Over LA Zoo’s Treatment of Billy the Elephant – NBC Los Angeles

I would say this is all heavily dependent on what Los Angelas chooses to do with their program. If they are proactive and bring in either new females or a few bulls to form a bachelor herd, then a potential ban feels drastically less likely. His move to a better exhibit was a great move and did help decrease the validity of ARA arguments, and finally allowing him to live in a "natural" social circumstance would give the zoo much more of a defense.
Him living with only a singular female at the moment leaves the zoo in a remarkably shaky position, where at any time Billy could be left alone again and ARAs would have a feeding frenzy. If they're smart, then plans for more animals to be moved in should already be in place if not in the process of being executed.

 

[DavidBrown]

Can you point me to anything stating they are "getting out of elephants"? Everything I've seen was qualified with something like "we won't keep elephants in this way ever again".

The zoo made a formal announcement back in 2006, and we discussed it here: Questions about why the Bronx Zoo is closing their elephant exhibit and what it means [Bronx Zoo]

Here is a New York Times story about the announcement Bronx Zoo Plans to EndElephant Exhibit (Published 2006)

 

[Jambo]

This seems very unlikely. WCS has stated that they are getting out of elephants once the current ones pass, and they have not indicated any change from that philosophy in over a decade now. I talked to someone there in the early 2000s who said that they had considered building a very large elephant complex within Wild Asia and decided not to even at that time.

Perhaps that was the case at the time back then but it's important to remember that plans change and management changes. It's been almost two decades since that was mentioned. I wouldn't be so quick to assume decisions made back then would still be relevant today.

 

[DavidBrown]

Perhaps that was the case at the time back then but it's important to remember that plans change and management changes. It's been almost two decades since that was mentioned. I wouldn't be so quick to assume decisions made back then would still be relevant today.

Possibly, but it seems more likely now than ever that there will not be any more elephants at the Bronx Zoo after the current ones pass away or move to other facilities. There has been a strong trend away from keeping elephants in northern zoos, and the paradigm of elephant exhibits has changed to keeping family herds which requires much larger exhibit spaces and multi-multimillion dollar exhibits than used to be the case.

If WCS has any plans for a future elephant exhibit, they have made zero statements about it for almost 20 years, and the politics of keeping elephants in New York City have become ever nastier (i.e., the ongoing litigation about elephant "personhood") since 2006.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Possibly, but it seems more likely now than ever that there will not be any more elephants at the Bronx Zoo after the current ones pass away or move to other facilities. There has been a strong trend away from keeping elephants in northern zoos, and the paradigm of elephant exhibits has changed to keep family herds which requires much larger exhibit spaces and multi-multimillion dollar exhibits.

If WCS has any plans for a future elephant exhibit, they have made zero statements about it for almost 20 years.

Bronx is less than a day's drive away from three other Asian elephant holders, so there's certianly not a shortage of elephants in the north. Bronx would arguably be a great addition to that region of holders, from both a breeding or bachelor sense.

Regardless of whether the zoo has been specific on their plans, any of their most recent statements have simply stated that elephants will not return to their current complex. It's remarkably likely that they simply haven't made a decision yet, but as others have pointed out it would make a lot of sense for them to return to elephants via a new complex. The monorail (and the zoo) could benefit from the popularity of elephants and they will more than likely have the room within the next few decades.

A statement made 18 years ago (back when zoos were still arguing for the benefit of concrete barn flooring ) is hardly applicable in today's enviornment.

 

[DavidBrown]

A statement made 18 years ago (back when zoos were still arguing for the benefit of concrete barn flooring ) is hardly applicable in today's enviornment.

If you pay attention to what is happening in the world of AZA management and the trajectory of how elephant programs are developing, it is relevant. If you are just running your mouth in a fantasy zoo forum, maybe not.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

If you pay attention to what is happening in the world of AZA management and the trajectory of how elephant programs are developing, it is relevant. If you are just running your mouth in a fantasy zoo forum, maybe not.

Hey now, there's no need to be rude on what you so lovingly call a "fantasy zoo forum". I do pay attention to what is happening in AZA zoos, thank you very much (and have worked at one). Apologies if my own phrasing sounded a bit harsh, but what myself and others are saying is that zoo plans can drastically change over the course of nearly two decades, and quoting a 2006 article as definitive proof of Bronx being a phase out facility isn't exactly the concrete evidence it was at the time. We're all here to discuss our thoughts on the matter after all.

 

[DavidBrown]

Hey now, there's no need to be rude on what you so lovingly call a "fantasy zoo forum". I do pay attention to what is happening in AZA zoos, thank you very much (and have worked at one). Apologies if my own phrasing sounded a bit harsh, but what myself and others are saying is that zoo plans can drastically change over the course of nearly two decades, and quoting a 2006 article as definitive proof of Bronx being a phase out facility isn't exactly the concrete evidence it was at the time. We're all here to discuss our thoughts on the matter after all.

I appreciate your response. I hoped that Bronx Zoo would create a state of the art elephant exhibit also, but the chances of that happening seem worse than ever if you consider the political climate in New York and the trends in new elephant exhibits.

Zoos that have been firmly committed to keeping elephants are now going out of elephants, like the Oakland Zoo now and Woodland Park Zoo a few years back. I wonder if the Los Angeles Zoo is far behind, both because of political pressure and the reality that the captive population of elephants seems unsustainable. The end of these elephant programs make me think that any zoo starting up a new elephant program going forward is probably unlikely, Brookfield Zoo's new master plan notwithstanding. Cincinnati Zoo is trying to buck the trend, and maybe Brookfield will too. Time will tell.

 

[JVM]

Jim Breheny has also commented on the situation on The Zoo more recently than that press release, in the episode "An Elephant's Trust" which broadcast in 2018, before Maxine's passing, and while I had swore he declared they wouldn't keep elephants at the Bronx Zoo onscreen, I listened in again to be sure, and Breheny states "once these guys die, we'll never keep elephants this way again" before discussing multigenerational herds as "the future of elephants in zoos", which is in line with what @Neil chace was saying above. I really would have sworn he said 'here' not 'this way', but there you go.

I am personally skeptical Bronx will ever hold elephants again, but it does appear they have avoided closing the door completely.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I am personally skeptical Bronx will ever hold elephants again, but it does appear they have avoided closing the door completely.

This appears to be a trend for several zoos that have phased out their current elephants/will be phasing out. Both Louisville and Knoxville have said similar vague statements, both saying along the lines that they're "considering elephants in their masterplan."
Certianly time will tell if Bronx (or any of these facilities) decide to commit to elephants.
It will be at least 15 years or more before elephants would return to Bronx, and probably a similar amount of time for any similar facility. Personally I think we will see a few facilities return to them, especially african holders.

 

[tigris115]

No- Jane Goodall Act is a contemporary Canada-wide act that has yet to pass (and is supported by each of Canada's AZA-accredited facilities, might I add). I was referring in 2011 when Toronto's City Council forced the zoo to send its last three elephants to PAWS. You can read about the decision here, needless to say it was a bit of a mess- and resulted in Toronto temporarily losing its AZA accreditation: Elephant tug of war: The story of the Toronto Zoo transfer

This one's complicated

While I do agree that exhibit was not suitable for the elephants and I'm not sure if Toronto can make a great elephant exhibit (it's not like elephants can't be exhibited in cold places; see Zoo Zurich and Borås Djurpark) and those three needed to be transferred to a proper home. As well, I have absolutely nothing against elephant sanctuaries like TES and PAWS.

But the way the city handled it was horrific and only served to build resentment with everyone involved. I sincerely believe the city government was swayed by animal rights groups and that shouldn't be happening. As well, I do think the article itself is a bit accusatory towards the AZA and the stance of elephants in zoos

 

[15399]

As well, I do think the article itself is a bit accusatory towards the AZA and the stance of elephants in zoos

Agreed, however it is the best overview of the issue I could find, even if it was imperfect.

While I do agree that exhibit was not suitable for the elephants and I'm not sure if Toronto can make a great elephant exhibit (it's not like elephants can't be exhibited in cold places; see Zoo Zurich and Borås Djurpark) and those three needed to be transferred to a proper home.

Toronto has plenty of space, so if funding existed I'm sure a new home would've been possible. That said, Toronto phasing out elephants wasn't the issue here, the issue was the way the city went about forcing their hand.

But the way the city handled it was horrific and only served to build resentment with everyone involved. I sincerely believe the city government was swayed by animal rights groups and that shouldn't be happening.

It was indeed horrific- causing their zoo to lose accreditation over governance issues, and having elected officials think they know better than trained animal care staff is a big problem that never should've happened.

As well, I have absolutely nothing against elephant sanctuaries like TES and PAWS

Keep in mind the TES of today that zoos send elephants to is very different than these sanctuaries were a decade ago- at that point they were tuberculosis-filled places where elephants went to die, and nowhere near as transparent as TES is today. While sending elephants to TES today is oftentimes the correct choice, it wouldn't have been a responsible choice back then.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Toronto has plenty of space, so if funding existed I'm sure a new home would've been possible. That said, Toronto phasing out elephants wasn't the issue here, the issue was the way the city went about forcing their hand.

It is a remarkable shame that we will likely never see high quality elephant exhibits, or any longterm elephant holders at all for that matter, in Canada. Zoos like Toronto would be inclined to build fantastic indoor exhibits (perhaps the likes of Zurch!) and the additions would be remarkably valuable to the sustainability of both populations in NA. Having a major breeding holder other than ALS would be nice as well.

 

[USZOOfan42]

It is a remarkable shame that we will likely never see high quality elephant exhibits, or any longterm elephant holders at all for that matter, in Canada. Zoos like Toronto would be inclined to build fantastic indoor exhibits (perhaps the likes of Zurch!) and the additions would be remarkably valuable to the sustainability of both populations in NA. Having a major breeding holder other than ALS would be nice as well.

Does Canada have any elephants currently?