Argali or Marco Polo Sheep in zoos

ThylacineAlive said:
along with the fact that US zoos do not take much interest in Caprines.
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Which reminds me of my bewilderment when a Canadian zoo aficionado (and dear friend of mine) expressed his joy to see more Rocky Mountain goats in the various European zoos we visited together than in any American or Canadian institutions. I think I'll have to send him to Tallin one day. ^^
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Dall Sheep are a wonderful species, and one I never saw until this year at Krefeld Zoo and Plzen Zoo. They are completely phased-out, or nearly so, from American zoos for the same reasons @Batto gave, along with the fact that US zoos do not take much interest in Caprines.

~Thylo
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I see them regularly as wild animals now here in Alaska, but the first Dall Sheep I ever saw where at Krefeld Zoo In 2002.

Someone else posted a few years ago that they thought the general disconnect today’s society has from hunting and hunting stories (think Hemingway I guess) as one of the primary reasons wild sheep, goats, deer, and antelope were losing favor as exhibited animals. Outside of native species specialty zoos and “safari parks” it does seem to be true that the public isn’t clamoring to see traditional “game” species.

I enjoy zoos due to the “illusion of discovery” they provide and I am always dissatisfied with a collection of wolves and multiple big cat species...and no appropriate prey species. Any zoo that displays Cheetahs with gazelles and small antelopes or Snow Leopards and genuine Asian Highland Game species shoots right to the top of the list for me.
 
Pleistohorse said:
Someone else posted a few years ago that they thought the general disconnect today’s society has from hunting and hunting stories (...)as one of the primary reasons wild sheep, goats, deer, and antelope were losing favor as exhibited animals.
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That's an intriguing perspective, and I think it does have a point. I might also add that there are also fewer hunters among today's zoo directors and zoo stakeholders than in the earlier decades of zoos.
 
Batto said:
Which reminds me of my bewilderment when a Canadian zoo aficionado (and dear friend of mine) expressed his joy to see more Rocky Mountain goats in the various European zoos we visited together than in any American or Canadian institutions. I think I'll have to send him to Tallin one day. ^^
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I saw my very first Rocky Mountain Goats this year as well, at Tierpark Berlin (after failing to see them wild in Utah many years ago). The nominate Bighorn Sheep is another taxa I hadn't seen until my latest Europe trip, too. The only reason I'd seen nelsoni before 2018 is because I had visited the LA Zoo in 2016 to visit friends at school.

Pleistohorse said:
Someone else posted a few years ago that they thought the general disconnect today’s society has from hunting and hunting stories (think Hemingway I guess) as one of the primary reasons wild sheep, goats, deer, and antelope were losing favor as exhibited animals. Outside of native species specialty zoos and “safari parks” it does seem to be true that the public isn’t clamoring to see traditional “game” species.
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A very unique theory indeed, and one I would agree with. As far as the US goes, though, I think the largest problem is the fact that the government has an almost complete ban on the importation of live even-toed ungulates. This makes it very difficult to trade genes with European zoos or acquire more founders. Deer are particularly unpopular with the government and many zoos cannot trade deer across state lines. I remember speaking with someone at the SDZ Safari Park and finding out that the only zoo they can reliably trade animals with is Bronx because New York and California have more lax laws when it comes to testing for diseases. This is why a lot of Asian deer species are almost exclusively found at Bronx and San Diego within the AZA.

~Thylo
 
Pleistohorse said:
I enjoy zoos due to the “illusion of discovery” they provide and I am always dissatisfied with a collection of wolves and multiple big cat species...and no appropriate prey species. Any zoo that displays Cheetahs with gazelles and small antelopes or Snow Leopards and genuine Asian Highland Game species shoots right to the top of the list for me.
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I agree that zoos are much better when they exhibit both predator and prey species. That's one of the reasons I love Saint Louis and Minnesota so much.
 
Batto said:
For the majority of zoo visitors, as illustrated by Tierpark Berlin, it's "just a (big) sheep"
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Frankly, the ram at Berlin Tierpark still has rather short horns. :)

The theory that zoos no longer keep sheep and goats is a bit stretched. Zootierliste lists 115 holders of Alpine Ibex and 424 holders of Mouflon, and they include many larger zoos. Rather, zoos overlook the possibility of raising the conservation value of their caprines.

It also looks like that small wildlife parks in Europe and hunting ranches in the USA are an overlooked resource for holding rare ungulates (many of which are undemanding but endangered due to hunting).
 
Jurek7 said:
The theory that zoos no longer keep sheep and goats is a bit stretched.
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I wonder how you came to that interpretation? For the record: I did not state that zoos no longer keep sheep and goats (which are, at least in their domestic forms, a standard in most zoos). Rather, I gave you an answer to your original question regarding the lack of argalis in zoos.
 
Batto said:
Which reminds me of my bewilderment when a Canadian zoo aficionado (and dear friend of mine) expressed his joy to see more Rocky Mountain goats in the various European zoos we visited together than in any American or Canadian institutions. I think I'll have to send him to Tallin one day. ^^
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Given the fact that Rocky Mountain goats are not doing so well these days, I suspect the days where one can see them in Europe are numbered.
 
I recently heard that the Moscow Zoo breeding herd of Argali Sheep died as a result of some type of disease or pathogen. Does anyone know if this is true?
 
Did not know that. Do they still have the breeding program going then? I have heard that Argali are more disease resistant than North American wild sheep as they have been exposed to humans and their domestic sheep for thousands of years. Is this true? I keep a small herd of Mouflon here in CT they seem hardy as well compared to NA wild sheep.

Greg
 
Greg Sinnott said:
Did not know that. Do they still have the breeding program going then? I have heard that Argali are more disease resistant than North American wild sheep as they have been exposed to humans and their domestic sheep for thousands of years. Is this true? I keep a small herd of Mouflon here in CT they seem hardy as well compared to NA wild sheep.

Greg
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Evidently European Mouflon are somewhat-domesticated in a similar way to Dingos and aren't actually a true wild sheep so this may be why they're hardier. To my knowledge all wild sheep are susceptible to disease, though Eurasian species may be a bit more resistant I'm not sure.

~Thylo
 
Jurek7 said:
I think I am not the only one fascinated by the world's largest wild sheep. The thread is about them in zoos.
Rather surprisingly, the only two zoos I found are Moscow breeding centre and Berlin Tierpark, which received animals from Moscow.

It seems strange that it is not more common alive in collections. It occurs in five countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and China), it can be commercially hunted and exported as a trophy, it is spectacular, it raises hunters interest, and its biology is similar to zoo staples lke Mouflon. Other Central Asian animals, from blue sheep to takin, spread in zoos in the last two decades.

Anbody knows of zoos within native range which keep Marco Polo Sheep?
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There were Argali in a US zoo...Cincinnati. There was actually a pair and the ewe died. A fellow named Stromberg ( from the Patio Ranch) bought some Mouflon ewes to the zoo to cross with the Argali. He then back bred these offspring to the ram once more. The Argali ram died shortly after but a herd of Strumberg Sheep was created. They have a lot of the size and horn length of an Argali as well as the color of the Mouflon. I believe that Argali ram was the only one ever in North America. The government makes it extremely difficult to import them because of their concern over pathogens.
 
Jurek7 said:
I think I am not the only one fascinated by the world's largest wild sheep. The thread is about them in zoos.
Rather surprisingly, the only two zoos I found are Moscow breeding centre and Berlin Tierpark, which received animals from Moscow.

It seems strange that it is not more common alive in collections. It occurs in five countries (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and China), it can be commercially hunted and exported as a trophy, it is spectacular, it raises hunters interest, and its biology is similar to zoo staples lke Mouflon. Other Central Asian animals, from blue sheep to takin, spread in zoos in the last two decades.

Anbody knows of zoos within native range which keep Marco Polo Sheep?
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I think you may be correct. Back when I was the studbook keeper for markhor I noted some animals that passed through Zoobjedinenije (Moscow Zoo Centre). They sent various animals to Tierpark Berlin (at that time the East German Zoo). Marco Polo sheep may have been considered "too" valuable for export to Western Zoological Parks. While many ibex and markhor came through that route. Any Texas firms that have argali likely obtained them as surplus from the San Diego Zoo or Wildlife Park, via various dealers in the 1960s to 1970s. Such animals would be suspect, since the Texans have a penchant for cross breeding.
 
Hey guys, remember this story?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/us/montana-giant-sheep-hybrid-guilty.html

Welp, the guy involved was sentenced today.

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He got six months in prison and will have to pay a $20,000 fine.

But that's not what I'm interested in, I'm far more curious about what fate will befell Montana Mountain King. The cloned Marco Polo ram at the heart of all of this.

This is what today's article had to say about him.

"The animal has been confiscated by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services and is being held in an accredited facility until it can be transferred to a zoo, said Richard Bare, a special agent with the wildlife service."

Now, my line of questioning is... Are Marco Polo sheep even in US zoos? Especially AZA-accredited ones? What zoo is this ram going to end up at? Where has he even been held for the last six months? What impact could he have on the captive Marco Polo population?
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
Now, my line of questioning is... Are Marco Polo sheep even in US zoos? Especially AZA-accredited ones? What zoo is this ram going to end up at? Where has he even been held for the last six months? What impact could he have on the captive Marco Polo population?
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There are zero in the US currently. Heck, there are only 2 places on ZTL that even still have them in the world. If anything, he will probably just be a one off in some collection.
 
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