Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2024

[Zoofan15]

If we are discounting our two founders there is a decent amount of bulls we have that are. First and foremost, the Sydney bulls don't hold much value; they have relations in both regions. But aside from them, Luk Chai for starters would be a great candidate being a son of two founders unrepresented in both regions; same goes for his full younger brother, Sabai.

The other two bulls, Pathi Harn and Roi Yim, are both descended from the Bong Su line (so related to Ongard, a bull already in the US).In saying that it wouldn't hurt for those regions to gain additional representation considering they're unrelated otherwise.

In order of value, it would look something like: Putra Mas, Gung, Luk Chai/Sabai, Roi Yim, Pathi Harn, Kavi/Ashoka

The most genetically valuable bulls we have are the ones the region will undoubtedly want to retain:

Putra Mas (1989) - founder
Gung (2000) - founder
Pathi Harn (2010) - first generation, only son of Bong Su in region

The least genetically valuable bulls are the ones other regions are unlikely to want (case in point, Europe sent them to us):

Kavi (2014) - well represented line globally
Ashoka (2014) - well represented line globally

The middle range bulls are the most suitable candidates for export:

Luk Chai (2009)
Sabai (2016)
Roi-Yim (2022)

After siring one more cohort of calves at Werribee, Luk Chai will be retired from breeding. Sabai has next to no application to the breeding programme (full brother of Luk Chai); and Roi-Yim is similarly descended from a total of four founders, yet would be genetically valuable overseas, where his only relation in North America is his mother’s half brother, Ongard.

 

[Jambo]

The most genetically valuable bulls we have are the ones the region will undoubtedly want to retain:

Putra Mas (1989) - founder
Gung (2000) - founder
Pathi Harn (2010) - first generation, only son of Bong Su in region

The least genetically valuable bulls are the ones other regions are unlikely to want (case in point, Europe sent them to us):

Kavi (2014) - well represented line globally
Ashoka (2014) - well represented line globally

The middle range bulls are the most suitable candidates for export:

Luk Chai (2009)
Sabai (2016)
Roi-Yim (2022)

After siring one more cohort of calves at Werribee, Luk Chai will be retired from breeding. Sabai has next to no application to the breeding programme (full brother of Luk Chai); and Roi-Yim is similarly descended from a total of four founders, yet would be genetically valuable overseas, where his only relation in North America is his mother’s half brother, Ongard.

So overall Sabai and Roi Yim seem to be the best candidates for overseas export - Sabai especially.

Even if Luk Chai is no longer going to breed, he can still remain on site at Werribee as a mentor bull and a contingency if all goes south with his line going forward.

 

[Zoofan15]

So overall Sabai and Roi Yim seem to be the best candidates for overseas export - Sabai especially.

Even if Luk Chai is no longer going to breed, he can still remain on site at Werribee as a mentor bull and a contingency if all goes south with his line going forward.

I’d agree with that. Sabai is a prime candidate, being an adolescent bull living independently of the matriarchal herd and having no obvious future breeding placement within the region. Exporting him would reduce Dubbo’s holdings to three groupings - two bulls living alone; and the matriarchal herd of four cows (one pregnant). It’d be hugely beneficial with Anjalee’s calf on the way (and hopefully breeding at least one of the other two adult cows).

Werribee’s facilities in the current state are designed to accomodate two adult bulls in their own paddocks - one being Luk Chai. Assuming at least one bull calf follows in the next cohort, that’s the foundations of a bachelor herd (with Roi-Yim), but with cows in the adjacent paddocks, it would be unrealistic to anticipate said bachelor herd to coexist beyond adolescence.

As a side note, Luk Chai is special to the region as Australasia’s first elephant calf. Though he may never have attained the hype of what I’ve read of the United Kingdom’s first elephant calf (Jubilee, born 1977), I feel like there’d be a desire to retain him within the region. Beyond sentimental attachment, there’s his greater value as a mentor to young bulls like you say.

 

[Jambo]

I’d agree with that. Sabai is a prime candidate, being an adolescent bull living independently of the matriarchal herd and having no obvious future breeding placement within the region. Exporting him would reduce Dubbo’s holdings to three groupings - two bulls living alone; and the matriarchal herd of four cows (one pregnant). It’d be hugely beneficial with Anjalee’s calf on the way (and hopefully breeding at least one of the other two adult cows).

With Sabai I do wonder whether perhaps he may be retained as a mentor bull in the future. We both know Dubbo's other two bulls (Gung and Pathi Harn) aren't the most interactive individuals and considering the success both Dubbo and Melbourne have seen with Luk Chai in this role, there's a chance there may be value with Sabai in a similar role going forward at Dubbo.

He share's a similar personality to his older brother, and grew up around him a lot. The consistent interaction sessions he had would've surely had a huge benefit, improving his own social skills. Especially if Anjalee births a son, Sabai might be a valuable individual to mentor the calf in the future.

 

[Zoofan15]

With Sabai I do wonder whether perhaps he may be retained as a mentor bull in the future. We both know Dubbo's other two bulls (Gung and Pathi Harn) aren't the most interactive individuals and considering the success both Dubbo and Melbourne have seen with Luk Chai in this role, there's a chance there may be value with Sabai in a similar role going forward at Dubbo.

He share's a similar personality to his older brother, and grew up around him a lot. The consistent interaction sessions he had would've surely had a huge benefit, improving his own social skills. Especially if Anjalee births a son, Sabai might be a valuable individual to mentor the calf in the future.

Gung began early musth cycles a few years ago, which were irregular and made his behaviour unpredictable. Both Luk Chai and Pathi Harn show avoidance if in an adjacent area to him during this time; but outside of musth, he and Luk Chai enjoyed contact sessions right up until Luk Chai left. As Gung matures, his annual musth cycle will become predictable and this will hopefully allow him to fulfill a mentor role outside of this period.

Pathi Harn however is a dominant, forceful bull and probably not the best choice as a mentor bull when there’s calmer individuals.

There absolutely could be value in retaining Sabai as a mentor bull. He’s also unrelated to Kanlaya.

 

[Zoofan15]

Permai transferring to Monarto January 2025:

Putra Mas is intended to follow mid-2025:

Perth Zoo's female elephant Permai set to depart in late January, months ahead of schedule - ABC News

Successful training with her moving crate, and the arrival of another elephant, Burma, at Monarto from Auckland, has convinced keepers to move Permai earlier.

She's also been exhibiting loneliness behaviour, such as rocking and not participating in activities.

Permai will travel by truck to South Australia, accompanied by keepers and other zoo staff. Her crate will be fitted with air-conditioning for comfort.

 

[Zoofan15]

Permai transferring to Monarto January 2025:

Putra Mas is intended to follow mid-2025:

Perth Zoo's female elephant Permai set to depart in late January, months ahead of schedule - ABC News

Successful training with her moving crate, and the arrival of another elephant, Burma, at Monarto from Auckland, has convinced keepers to move Permai earlier.

She's also been exhibiting loneliness behaviour, such as rocking and not participating in activities.

Permai will travel by truck to South Australia, accompanied by keepers and other zoo staff. Her crate will be fitted with air-conditioning for comfort.

The arrival of Permai before the Taronga cows will give her and Burma chance to begin forming a relationship. Though this can take years, especially with older elephants; and even then there’s no guarantees, I’m optimistic given their personalities. Hopefully they will be a support to each other when the others (which are a bonded pair) arrive.

Long term, it’ll be fascinating to see what relationships develop between the four cows:

0.1 Burma (1982)
0.1 Permai (1989)
0.1 Pak Boon (1992)
0.1 Tang Mo (1999)

It’s natural to assume the strongest bond will remain between Pak Boon and Tang Mo, who have lived together at Taronga since 2006; but worth noting Pak Boon and Tang Mo are only living together by circumstance and that their strongest friendships in the Taronga herd were previously with Porntip and Thong Dee respectively.

It could well eventuate that Burma or Permai forms a stronger bond with one of the Taronga females over the other; who in turn chooses to spend more of her time with her than the other Taronga female. It’s reasonable to assume Pak Boon will be the most dominant force in the herd; Tang Mo the most playful/energetic; and Burma happy to take a backseat, so lots of factors at play here.

 

[Jambo]

Permai transferring to Monarto January 2025:

Putra Mas is intended to follow mid-2025:

Perth Zoo's female elephant Permai set to depart in late January, months ahead of schedule - ABC News

Successful training with her moving crate, and the arrival of another elephant, Burma, at Monarto from Auckland, has convinced keepers to move Permai earlier.

She's also been exhibiting loneliness behaviour, such as rocking and not participating in activities.

Permai will travel by truck to South Australia, accompanied by keepers and other zoo staff. Her crate will be fitted with air-conditioning for comfort.

Not surprising! Something we all predicted due to the circumstances surrounding Putra Mas, there was really little reason to retain Permai at Perth for any longer than she should.

It's also a little bit sad to see her exhibiting stress behaviours; it has been two years since Tricia passed to be fair and most cows (like her), aren't used to these long periods of being kept on their own. Conversely, Burma at Auckland has seemed to have adapted well to this over the years. I guess it really comes down to the individual, but I'm extremely glad Permai will get the opportunity to venture into a larger complex at Monarto and meet Burma sooner rather than later.

The arrival of Permai before the Taronga cows will give her and Burma chance to begin forming a relationship. Though this can take years, especially with older elephants; and even then there’s no guarantees, I’m optimistic given their personalities. Hopefully they will be a support to each other when the others (which are a bonded pair) arrive.

Long term, it’ll be fascinating to see what relationships develop between the four cows:

0.1 Burma (1982)
0.1 Permai (1989)
0.1 Pak Boon (1992)
0.1 Tang Mo (1999)

It’s natural to assume the strongest bond will remain between Pak Boon and Tang Mo, who have lived together at Taronga since 2006; but worth noting Pak Boon and Tang Mo are only living together by circumstance and that their strongest friendships in the Taronga herd were previously with Porntip and Thong Dee respectively.

It could well eventuate that Burma or Permai forms a stronger bond with one of the Taronga females over the other; who in turn chooses to spend more of her time with her than the other Taronga female. It’s reasonable to assume Pak Boon will be the most dominant force in the herd; Tang Mo the most playful/energetic; and Burma happy to take a backseat, so lots of factors at play here.

I don't doubt both females will take to each other straight away. Both females have been without another elephant for a while now so they should be very interested in each other off rip. Both females also have very similar personalities, so this should surely help.

On the relationship predictions, I think Permai and Tang Mo may get along well. Both females have been known to have rather mature yet playful personalities and I'm sure Tang Mo will appreciate having another few elephants to interact with, she's always been a very social elephant.

 

[Zoofan15]

Not surprising! Something we all predicted due to the circumstances surrounding Putra Mas, there was really little reason to retain Permai at Perth for any longer than she should.

It's also a little bit sad to see her exhibiting stress behaviours; it has been two years since Tricia passed to be fair and most cows (like her), aren't used to these long periods of being kept on their own. Conversely, Burma at Auckland has seemed to have adapted well to this over the years. I guess it really comes down to the individual, but I'm extremely glad Permai will get the opportunity to venture into a larger complex at Monarto and meet Burma sooner rather than later.

I don't doubt both females will take to each other straight away. Both females have been without another elephant for a while now so they should be very interested in each other off rip. Both females also have very similar personalities, so this should surely help.

On the relationship predictions, I think Permai and Tang Mo may get along well. Both females have been known to have rather mature yet playful personalities and I'm sure Tang Mo will appreciate having another few elephants to interact with, she's always been a very social elephant.

It must have been a huge adjustment for Permai when Tricia died. It was devastating for them when Teduh died in 2007, but at least then they had each other. This is the first time in her life that Permai has had to live alone.

Historically, other elephants have lived alone at Auckland Zoo for varying lengths of times. Jamuna was on her own from her arrival in 1923 until the arrival of Rajah in 1936. His death left her alone until Kassala arrived in 1952 (leaving in 1957); with Malini arriving in 1961. It’s documented Jamuna initially snubbed the younger elephant upon their introduction.

Burma was described as Kashin’s long awaited companion. Plans to import a pair fell through in the late 1980’s and Koru’s unfortunate death left her alone for most of the eight years between Ma Schwe’s death in 1982 and Burma’s arrival in 1990.

 

[Zoofan15]

Monarto Update - Burma now on Display

Burma’s debut marks the first time an elephant has been displayed in a SA zoo in 30 years!

From Monarto’s socials:

South Australia's favourite elephant, Burma, has completed her quarantine period and is now ready for visitors - and a new friend from Perth Zoo, Permai!

Having settled in beautifully to her new home, Burma took her first tentative steps out into the wider elephant habitat yesterday and began exploring. It will take her a couple of days to get completely comfortable out there but visitors will be able to see her roaming the cloverleaf area, which provides over 3 acres of varied terrain complete with waterhole.

And if that isn't exciting enough, we're also thrilled to share that Burma will have the first of her new family, Permai from Perth Zoo, joining her in late January!

Given Burma has settled in really well here at Monarto Safari Park, and Permai is hitting all the key milestones in the training and preparation for her travel, it makes sense that we're able to bring these two girls together earlier than anticipated to start what we hope to be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

The herd will continue to grow throughout the new year, with the girls Pak Boon and Tang Mo set to travel from Taronga Zoo, and male Putra Mas also making the journey from Perth Zoo once he is finished musth.

 

[steveroberts]

so is there the slightest chance that Putra Mas may remain at PZ then if he doesnt respond to his new crate, and PZ will accordingly 're-route' their masterplan around a potential further ≈25 years of him living there with them perhaps.

 

[Jambo]

so is there the slightest chance that Putra Mas may remain at PZ then if he doesnt respond to his new crate, and PZ will accordingly 're-route' their masterplan around a potential further ≈25 years of him living there with them perhaps.

Well if he doesn't want to go in the crate, they could potentially work towards partially sedating him for the move but this would be a mission and would preferably be avoided.

This decision would ultimately be up to Perth staff, and I'm confident they will make the right choice based on Putra Mas's welfare if that day does come and his crate training doesn't progress.

 

[Tiger91]

Well if he doesn't want to go in the crate, they could potentially work towards partially sedating him for the move but this would be a mission and would preferably be avoided.

This decision would ultimately be up to Perth staff, and I'm confident they will make the right choice based on Putra Mas's welfare if that day does come and his crate training doesn't progress.

Surely the improved quality of life the move will bring, would have to trump leaving him at Perth and would warrant pharmaceutical intervention.

 

[Jambo]

Surely the improved quality of life the move will bring, would have to trump leaving him at Perth and would warrant pharmaceutical intervention.

I would say so, but anesthesia, especially with larger animals like elephants bring huge risks. In that case, he would also have to fly which may also pose problems if they can't find an aircraft suitable.

So it all comes down to Putra Mas. Hopefully once his musth ends next year, his crate training he is undertaking now will pay off and he'll be able to enter the crate without problems!

 

[Tiger91]

I would say so, but anesthesia, especially with larger animals like elephants bring huge risks. In that case, he would also have to fly which may also pose problems if they can't find an aircraft suitable.

So it all comes down to Putra Mas. Hopefully once his musth ends next year, his crate training he is undertaking now will pay off and he'll be able to enter the crate without problems!

If they did go the anesthesia route, I imagine it would be a twilight dose. So he is technically still awake just very calm.

 

[Jambo]

If they did go the anesthesia route, I imagine it would be a twilight dose. So he is technically still awake just very calm.

Partially anesthetised, yes. However in that case it would still be inadvisable for him to be kept in this state for the potential 30+ hour road trip across the Nullarbor to Monarto - a flight would be the only theoretical option.

 

[Zoofan15]

so is there the slightest chance that Putra Mas may remain at PZ then if he doesnt respond to his new crate, and PZ will accordingly 're-route' their masterplan around a potential further ≈25 years of him living there with them perhaps.

Never say never!

It’s not essential to provide bulls with the companionship of a herd in the same way it is for cows and so from a welfare perspective, it may be deemed to be in Putra Mas’ best interests to remain at Perth.

All along there’s been uncertainty over whether Putra Mas can naturally breed and if there’s no plans to breed from him at Perth, him remaining at Perth will have no effect on the breeding programme. He’s sired calves at Dubbo and Melbourne via AI and could potentially do so again.

 

[Zoofan15]

If they did go the anesthesia route, I imagine it would be a twilight dose. So he is technically still awake just very calm.

Partially anesthetised, yes. However in that case it would still be inadvisable for him to be kept in this state for the potential 30+ hour road trip across the Nullarbor to Monarto - a flight would be the only theoretical option.

Putra Mas won’t be fully immobilised due to the risks involved with anaesthetising this species.

Potentially a mild sedative could be administered but bear in mind it’s a 30+ hour journey and this will wear off within that trip. The most practical thing the staff can do is ensure he’s training so he feels sufficiently relaxed when the time comes to undertake the move.

It was asked during the Zoos Victoria presentation last month if it was an option to practice transporting their elephants prior to the move (the answer was no of course).

 

[Trua]

There's absolutely no way Perth will be partially anesthetising an elephant over a more than 30 hour journey on road over the NULLARBOR. So many things could go wrong there and breaking down with a half asleep bull elephant who may wake rather restlessly has trouble written all over it.

Even then, anesthesia can become very risky after say four, five hours. Partial anesthesia may give slightly more time but keep in mind the elephant is still under anesthesia no matter how much it is. Flying him would be the only option. A trip still going to take potentially seven to eight hours depending on how fast they can get him to and from the airport.

 

[Zoofan15]

There's absolutely no way Perth will be partially anesthetising an elephant over a more than 30 hour journey on road over the NULLARBOR. So many things could go wrong there and breaking down with a half asleep bull elephant who may wake rather restlessly has trouble written all over it.

Even then, anesthesia can become very risky after say four, five hours. Partial anesthesia may give slightly more time but keep in mind the elephant is still under anesthesia no matter how much it is. Flying him would be the only option. A trip still going to take potentially seven to eight hours depending on how fast they can get him to and from the airport.

It’s certainly a complex one logistically. With Putra Mas’ apprehension about getting in the crate, I’d be wary of putting him on a plane, which would only add to the over-stimulation he will be feeling. If an elephant went into a panic on an aircraft, they’d have no option but to euthanise for the safety of everyone on board, which of course would be devastating.

On the other hand, once Putra Mas is in the crate, he may realise it’s not as daunting as he feared and a road trip at a steady pace may even calm him rather than compound his anxiety.

It’ll be interesting to see what Perth choose to go with transport wise; or whether, as has been suggested, they could even opt to have him remain at Perth for the foreseeable.