African Elephants in Europe 2024

ZCChip said:
right but last I know Ramat Gan participates in the EAZA. It will be interesting what will happen now the breeding bull has passed.
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The bull who died you are talking about was their bull Asian Elephant. They stopped breeding Africans back in 2007 when Yossi killed the matriarch female, and they separated him for life.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
The bull who died you are talking about was their bull Asian Elephant. They stopped breeding Africans back in 2007 when Yossi killed the matriarch female, and they separated him for life.
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Mmmm, it was a somewhat flawed decision to stop ALL breeding. It would have been preferable to bring in a new breeding bull to continue these important family blood lines.

I would be open to learn what actually determined Yossi's attack on the matriarch female. Was it down to behavioural mismatch, hormonal issues or keeper/curatioral management error?
 
Actually, it's quite to say the oldest or 2nd oldest since they are all wild caught. For sure Bahati is the oldest african elephant out of Africa. Then, Yoyo, Ettie and Aviva are surely in the same age, more or less...
 
lintworm said:
And Ramat Gan isn't ;)
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Well, one can say so. But, but there could be a valuable argument to consider in this case Ramat Gan to be part of "Europe" or "European". Firstly Ramat Gan must be a garden. Secondly not all borders are that clear as a border
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Mmmm, it was a somewhat flawed decision to stop ALL breeding. It would have been preferable to bring in a new breeding bull to continue these important family blood lines.

I would be open to learn what actually determined Yossi's attack on the matriarch female. Was it down to behavioural mismatch, hormonal issues or keeper/curatioral management error?
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Or the way of housing, just bad luck, design of enclosure with hard corners?
 
ZCChip said:
That’a what I meant to the other poster.
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My comments were focussed on the aspect of stopping breeding alltogether with African elephants and separating bull Yossi out of the family breeding line (totally irrespective of what spp. of elephant is/was otherwise involved/spoken of). The African elephant breeding program has stopped almost more than 2 decades ago and effectively with some major exports to the Aspinall Parks and across to other Continents.

For Asiatic elephant at Ramat-Gan: They had 2 cows of breeding age in immigrants La Belle and La Petite. Breeding bull Motek passed away in February 2022 and effectively stopping the Asiatic elephant breeding with no sight of a new bull on import. Cow La Petite of course still has her own 2020 born male calf Philo with her. La Belle has not bred since her first calf here in 2013.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
My comments were focussed on the aspect of stopping breeding alltogether with African elephants and separating bull Yossi out of the family breeding line (totally irrespective of what spp. of elephant is/was otherwise involved/spoken of). The African elephant breeding program has stopped almost more than 2 decades ago and effectively with some major exports to the Aspinall Parks and across to other Continents.

For Asiatic elephant at Ramat-Gan: They had 2 cows of breeding age in immigrants La Belle and La Petite. Breeding bull Motek passed away in February 2022 and effectively stopping the Asiatic elephant breeding with no sight of a new bull on import. Cow La Petite of course still has her own 2020 born male calf Philo with her. La Belle has not bred since her first calf here in 2013.
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might as well stop breeding. They have been inbred for at least two generations.
 
My understanding is that Yossi attacked because he - rather suddenly- discovered that he was dominant and stronger then the females. He had grown up in the herd and from what I have heard, he was never dominant over the matriarch Atari, and never challenged her. Until the day he did, and that ended deadly for her.

But the breeding of African elephants would have ended soon anyway. In the last years before he killed Atari and was seperated from the female herd, he bred with only 2 females - Norris, who died during the brirth of her 7th calf, and Bahati, who is his own mother and would have stopped breeding anyway due to old age. That she did not have more calves sired by her son is a good thing in my opinion. The other female who is still alive today in Ramat Gan only ever had one calf many years ago and was a nonbreeder, like Atari herself. So the killing of Atari did not really stop the breeding of African elephants in Ramat Gan, mismanagement (sending away all the young females and seperating the matrilines) and the failure to exchange the bull was.
 
Yassa said:
My understanding is that Yossi attacked because he - rather suddenly- discovered that he was dominant and stronger then the females. He had grown up in the herd and from what I have heard, he was never dominant over the matriarch Atari, and never challenged her. Until the day he did, and that ended deadly for her.

But the breeding of African elephants would have ended soon anyway. In the last years before he killed Atari and was seperated from the female herd, he bred with only 2 females - Norris, who died during the brirth of her 7th calf, and Bahati, who is his own mother and would have stopped breeding anyway due to old age. That she did not have more calves sired by her son is a good thing in my opinion. The other female who is still alive today in Ramat Gan only ever had one calf many years ago and was a nonbreeder, like Atari herself. So the killing of Atari did not really stop the breeding of African elephants in Ramat Gan, mismanagement (sending away all the young females and seperating the matrilines) and the failure to exchange the bull was.
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Indeed a lot of truth in this sad story, thankfully with their Asian Elephants, Varda knew how to handle Motek so he wouldn't step out of line and the zoo knew how to mange their Asian group
 
Also, tbh I expect the zoo just waits the African Elephants to pass so they can combine their yards with the Asian elephants yard so they can keep work with those
 
And honestly, if they do that and move the Reticulated Giraffes next to to the safari section in the giraffe area there and renovate the Reticulated Giraffe exhibit to be a bull yard that would be great honestly, since it's already next to the South East Asian section and will allow to maybe continue that breeding program
 
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