European (Tea)Cup - League C - Zoo Berlin vs London/Whipsnade

[Kalaw]

I was considering switching to 4-1 ZSL, but Berlin's role in establishing the population of two euplerid species in Europe, a fact I wasn't aware of, is enough to keep me at 3-2 given my enjoyment of that family of carnivores.

Speaking of which, in response to your comments about London's boky enclosure, TLD, I can't comment on how they compare to Berlin's accommodation, as only the indoor portions of said enclosures are pictured on the gallery, but I was rather fond of the old boky enclosure at London, a series of interconnected dens spanning one entire wall of 'Rainforest Life,' offering plenty of privacy in hollow logs, plants and dens - certainly not 'average' in my opinion. However, within the past few months, the bokies were moved to the former gentle lemur enclosure elsewhere in the Clore, which is quite a bit smaller, but does have outdoor access. The outdoor portion is, and always has been, offshow, but from what I have heard (and from a satellite view), fairly sizeable and has grass coverage. Presumably, the presence of outdoor space was the reason the inhabitants were moved. Haven't visited myself since the bokies moved to the lemur enclosure, but I would consider it to be a perfectly acceptable space for the species - entirely possible that it is inferior to Berlin's, however.

Personally, I have never really had an issue with the design 'Land of the Lions.' I feel as though it manages to strike a balance between offering a myriad different viewing angles for the visitors, without compromising the privacy of the lions. There is multi-level viewing of both enclosures, and the area around the mongooses' outdoor space provides a quiet corner that most visitors tend to forget - one of my fondest London Zoo memories over recent years is discovering that, despite the huge crowds at the nearby glass-fronted viewing, I had this area to myself, and was able to get very close to some of the newborn cubs through steel fencing. I would be lying if I said it didn't have its issues, however - the boardwalk is a comical traffic jam in busier times, mainly due to baby buggies which can block up the whole thing if two are placed side-by-side!

As for the theming, this is a wonderfully subjective matter that divides zoo enthusiasts, and will continue to do so. I don't have a problem with theming in zoos so long as it serves an actual purpose that isn't just for the sake of having something out of the ordinary, and I feel as though London has succeeded in that sense. One of the conservation projects I detailed earlier involves working with Asiatic Lions in the Gir National Park, and therefore I feel as though, given the abundance of signage and interactive displays that explicitly detail the in situ work, it certainly serves a purpose. The materials rarely ever feel tacky, either. Yes, its over-the-top, unnecessary, and very much out of place in a historic, scientifically-oriented zoo, but I like it for what it is - an eye-catching and unavoidable attempt at educating the zoo's visitors about their conservation work. And with just how much conservation work ZSL perform, I feel they are entitled to do that.

I fully anticipate that the debate of 'over-theming,' its role, and to what extent it is acceptable, will continue to be a theme throughout this tournament!

 

[amur leopard]

and when said performance includes the overthemed, poorly-designed and generally unpleasant Land of the Lions

Definitely won't be convincing you of the opposite, and I agree that in terms logical layout it is poor, but purely from the lions' perspective I strongly believe it is a better exhibit than Berlin's, and for me that is the more important point.

that the performance of London in this regard drags Whipsnade down from the heights it would otherwise have reached....

This raises an important point - for the combined zoos, are we supposedly taking an average between the two collections in terms of performance or viewing them as a single entity? I'd argue surely the latter. But I can understand where you are coming from.

and a Giant Panda exhibit complex which at a total of 7,500 m² is significantly larger than the Whipsnade exhibit for Brown Bear

Maybe, but usable area by pandas is at best comparable and at worst in favour of Whipsnade, which is the fairer comparison, unless you include all the pathways around the bear exhibit .

Another point which occurs to me is that a few people have mentioned giving London credit as a result of the presence of Narrow-striped Boky; from what I recall, the exhibit for the species was pretty average and certainly nowhere near as good as the multiple (linked) indoor *and* outdoor exhibits for the species present at Zoo Berlin - granted, it has now been several years since I visited London and as such it is possible that improvements have been made.

The situation is far better now, although still no outdoor exhibit as of yet. However, there are currently two series of exhibits - one in the indoor area of the lemur walkthrough bit, where they have about the same indoor area as at Berlin with four or so of the indoor bits connected. The other is in the rainforest area, with a larger indoor area than that at Berlin if I remember correctly. Granted, no outdoor area, but it isn't clearly worse than Berlin (as it would be if it were as you say). Edit - cross-posted with Kalaw who seems to know more than me, refer to their post above .

 

[Brum]

Last weekend there was signage for the bokies in both the aforementioned enclosures. Did only see one by the Aye-aye, but there was food out in the original enclosure as well.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I fully anticipate that the debate of 'over-theming,' its role, and to what extent it is acceptable, will continue to be a theme throughout this tournament!

Definitely, and I look forward to it

This raises an important point - for the combined zoos, are we supposedly taking an average between the two collections in terms of performance or viewing them as a single entity? I'd argue surely the latter. But I can understand where you are coming from.

The two options you present seem like a distinction without a difference really - if viewing them as a single entity, the high points and low points would naturally be taken together as a whole and contribute to an overall average. But we might be coming at cross-purposes with what each of us means, and both actually be of one mind

I think the only real guideline when it comes to the combined zoos is that both *do* have to be taken into consideration - for instance, you couldn't say that the Belgian duo barely have any ectotherm representation and then *only* speak about Planckendael as evidence, entirely ignoring the aquarium and reptile house at Antwerp - and that the way that one takes them into consideration is more plastic.

 

[Kalaw]

Last weekend there was signage for the bokies in both the aforementioned enclosures. Did only see one by the Aye-aye, but there was food out in the original enclosure as well.

Given that the zoo holds 2.2, that makes sense - I suspect they are keeping each pair in separate enclosures, hopefully with a repeat of the 2016 breeding success as the long-term goal. If there are a pair in both enclosures, then I imagine the combined area rivals, if not exceeds, that of Berlin.

Even though ZSL has double the voters of Berlin at the moment (excluding the 5-0 in accordance with the rules), the five-point system means that London's lead is only 67-63 at the moment. Every vote is pivotal!

On an unrelated note, how often will there be new matches, TLD? Do another two start when the first two end (i.e. every three days) or will there be a pair of new ones every day?

 

[NSU42]

when said performance includes the overthemed, poorly-designed and generally unpleasant Land of the Lions as a significant proportion of the whole, the weight is very heavy indeed.

Thank you as this is exactly the type of reasoning and argument I was looking for someone to make for Berlin. You make a very strong argument that definitely may get me to lean the other way in the end as I continue to look at the galleries. Seeing your other posts throughout the forum, I am also not entirely surprised by any of the points you made and why you favor Berlin. Berlin has definitely done a good job embracing their history and continuing to incorporate it into the overall aesthetic of the zoo, while ZSL has pretty much done the complete opposite with Land of the Lions.

That being said, as amur leopard already pointed out while I was typing this, theming like there is in Land of the Lions is a very divisive issue here and largely comes down to personal preferences. For me, I really enjoyed Land of the Lions, while I agree it goes a bit too far with the theming in some places, I think it is a very well done overall and also highlights an area of the world that most zoos don't design exhibits around. At least I haven't seen anything like it yet. It highlights the zoos conservation efforts, while "transporting" the visitor to the country in which these animals are found. As a former teacher, I truly believe an exhibit like this engages the average visitor and kids much more than the standard exhibit with basic signage, creates a sense of wonder, and is going to prompt further curiosity and interest for the future in the same way a lesson that gets kids engaged and excited is going to teach them more than lecturing at them. There is definitely bad theming out there in zoos, like the over abundance of half baked ruined temple themes, but this isn't one of them.

My one follow up question here for you would be if you think the actual animal exhibitry is poorly-designed and overall poor for the animals? As, while it definitely is not the greatest lion exhibit I've seen, I would say it is above average.

Finally, and fair warning as this may be one for the hot takes thread, but I often find it a bit ironic that the people that really rail against theming in zoos are often the same people that praise the zoos that have a lot of historic architecture in them and the way in which the zoos have preserved those building. What were these early forms of zoo building architecture if they were not "theming"? As Tuson notes several times in his books the original architect's of these buildings overall goal was to transport the visitor to the land in which these animals were from (obviously paraphrasing). To me, these buildings often appear to be overly ostentatious and would appear to be out of place in European zoos, but I admit I have not been to any of these historic zoos to truly judge for myself and will likely enjoy them just like I do the themed exhibits of today. It just seems that many zoo enthusiasts praise the one form of theming because it is historic and "the standard", while disliking the newer type of design because they don't like change. For me, it is kind of like the "purist" fans of any sport that don't like when rules change and modernize with the times. Again, I truly believe I will love Berlin and all of its history when I visit (as I am a huge history nerd), but I also enjoy theming when it is done well.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

My one follow up question here for you would be if you think the actual animal exhibitry is poorly-designed and overall poor for the animals?

As I personally teeter between giving the edge to ZSL vs Zoo Berlin, it's questions like this which I really pick my brain over. I, too, really dislike Land of Lions. My grievances, from memory, are more of the exhibit complex as a whole as opposed to the Lion enclosure. This is tough for me as it's been almost 9 years now since my visits to London and Whipsnade, and 7 since Zoo Berlin (in fact, many of the exhibits at Zoo Berlin were not even open when I visited!). What sticks with me as what was bad about Land of Lions, however, wasn't so much the Lion enclosure which I remember being alright but nothing special. I remember the same of Zoo Berlin's.

For now, I am swayed from my initial 3/2 ZSL to 3/2 Berlin largely thanks to @Green_mamba and @TeaLovingDave's breakdowns. I could be convinced to switch again.

As an aside, I am very happy to see exhibitry, husbandry, impact/legacy, and conservation all being weighed alongside species list. I do remember some of the earlier iterations of this game basically breaking down to bigger species list = win for many players.

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Even though ZSL has double the voters of Berlin at the moment (excluding the 5-0 in accordance with the rules), the five-point system means that London's lead is only 67-63 at the moment. Every vote is pivotal!

You miscounted slightly - at the time you posted, the total was actually 74-71 but has now slightly widened to 77-73 which I think actually reflects how closely the two collections are matched in reality when stripped of personal opinion, preference and sentiment on either side!

On an unrelated note, how often will there be new matches, TLD? Do another two start when the first two end (i.e. every three days) or will there be a pair of new ones every day?

Next pair will kick off once this pair ends I reckon the best way to prevent people getting overloaded and losing interest in the Cup is to allow each match a chance to breathe and space for discussion/argument to pan out fully.

My one follow up question here for you would be if you think the actual animal exhibitry is poorly-designed and overall poor for the animals? As, while it definitely is not the greatest lion exhibit I've seen, I would say it is above average.

It has been about seven years since my last visit to London Zoo, if my memory bears out, but as I recall I felt that the enclosure quality was reasonably good where the welfare of the animals was concerned - but also nothing amazing, and only a minor improvement on the old Lion Terraces from my memory of that exhibit.

Finally, and fair warning as this may be one for the hot takes thread, but I often find it a bit ironic that the people that really rail against theming in zoos are often the same people that praise the zoos that have a lot of historic architecture in them and the way in which the zoos have preserved those building. What were these early forms of zoo building architecture if they were not "theming"? As Tuson notes several times in his books the original architect's of these buildings overall goal was to transport the visitor to the land in which these animals were from (obviously paraphrasing). To me, these buildings often appear to be overly ostentatious and would appear to be out of place in European zoos, but I admit I have not been to any of these historic zoos to truly judge for myself and will likely enjoy them just like I do the themed exhibits of today. It just seems that many zoo enthusiasts praise the one form of theming because it is historic and "the standard", while disliking the newer type of design because they don't like change. For me, it is kind of like the "purist" fans of any sport that don't like when rules change and modernize with the times. Again, I truly believe I will love Berlin and all of its history when I visit (as I am a huge history nerd), but I also enjoy theming when it is done well.

There have definitely been many themed exhibits and exhibit complexes which I have thoroughly enjoyed and think are excellent, and I suspect we will doubtless end up covering several of these during the course of the Cup - but the difference between these and the ones I have found myself not enjoying and viewing the theming as a negative can sometimes be pretty tricky to put my finger on!

For instance, I am a fan of the Bush at Burgers and Masaola at Zurich, but dislike Gondwanaland at Leipzig - despite the fact they are all theoretically of one kind

As an aside, I am very happy to see exhibitry, husbandry, impact/legacy, and conservation all being weighed alongside species list. I do remember some of the earlier iterations of this game basically breaking down to bigger species list = win for many players.

Ditto - some of the best matches in previous iterations came when people provided lengthy breakdowns of all pertinent factors applying to both sides and ended up either decisively tilting the course of the match, or making it a lot closer than it otherwise would have been!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

To hopefully prompt further excellent debate and discussion, I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of @Neil chace as the outlier ZSL supporter, and @Veno and @matzek as the other outlier Berlin supporters other than myself and the still-silent @ZH5199.

On which note, and speaking directly to the latter - another reminder that if you don't post your reasoning your 5-0 vote cannot be counted! If your silence is due to a reluctance to post on the forum full-stop for your own reasons (I note that you have been a forum member for some time but have never posted) I would counsel you to adjust your vote to one which would permit your vote and silence to coexist.

If you have no such reluctance, why not provide your reasons for voting as you have - they may be compelling enough to sway people, you never know! You have just under 48 hours left to post or adjust your vote

 

[NSU42]

As I personally teeter between giving the edge to ZSL vs Zoo Berlin, it's questions like this which I really pick my brain over. I, too, really dislike Land of Lions. My grievances, from memory, are more of the exhibit complex as a whole as opposed to the Lion enclosure. This is tough for me as it's been almost 9 years now since my visits to London and Whipsnade, and 7 since Zoo Berlin (in fact, many of the exhibits at Zoo Berlin were not even open when I visited!). What sticks with me as what was bad about Land of Lions, however, wasn't so much the Lion enclosure which I remember being alright but nothing special. I remember the same of Zoo Berlin's.

It has been about seven years since my last visit to London Zoo, if my memory bears out, but as I recall I felt that the enclosure quality was reasonably good where the welfare of the animals was concerned - but also nothing amazing, and only a minor improvement on the old Lion Terraces from my memory of that exhibit.

I can absolutely understand not liking Land of the Lions for the thematic elements and really I've already given my strongest argument to counter this above with visitor engagement. There really isn't anything I can say to dissuade someone from this stance as it really is a matter of personal preference. I'm glad we all seem to be on the same page about the exhibit quality though, as I agree, while there is nothing special about it, it also isn't bad. That being said, I also agree it is fair to take into account the entirety of the complex the animals are held in, especially when said complex is built around them as the star attraction, and at times this is going to be a detractor for people.

For now, I am swayed from my initial 3/2 ZSL to 3/2 Berlin largely thanks to @Green_mamba and @TeaLovingDave's breakdowns. I could be convinced to switch again.

Honestly, I want to do a bit more digging for photos in the gallery before I actually do it and look at the species lists one more time, but I'm pretty sure that my vote is going to flip 3/2 Berlin as well. I don't think the exhibit quality of Berlin is enough to drag down the superiority of the collection at this point.

There have definitely been many themed exhibits and exhibit complexes which I have thoroughly enjoyed and think are excellent, and I suspect we will doubtless end up covering several of these during the course of the Cup - but the difference between these and the ones I have found myself not enjoying and viewing the theming as a negative can sometimes be pretty tricky to put my finger on!

For instance, I am a fan of the Bush at Burgers and Masaola at Zurich, but dislike Gondwanaland at Leipzig - despite the fact they are all theoretically of one kind

And this is just the truth of the matter overall, sometimes is largely a gut feeling that we can't quite place. I have never been to any of the zoos so I can't not comment my own personal opinions, but from what I know about them I would bet you don't mind the theming in the Bush and Masaola because it feels like a much more authentic recreation of nature versus using more thematic cultural elements to transport the visitor. This type of theming appears much more natural and real because it is much easier to replicate with plants, good rock work, etc. At the same time, I understand Gondwanaland has a less authentic feel than the other two and feels more artificial. Again, really just taking a stab at it based on what I know.

Also, I was really hoping to stir things up with my comment about historical zoo buildings, but no one seems to have taken the bait. Dang.

 

[Lafone]

In reference to Land of the Lions, in general principle I don’t like ‘theming’ so much as if done badly it makes the whole thing look like a circus or crazy golf course. I believe Land of the Lions has navigated that pitfall successfully. That’s probably not a common view but nonetheless I thought it worth posting for a different perspective.

I am not a regular London visitor compared to Whipsnade but I have enjoyed it when I’ve visited.

When I come across theming doing things in context and with some decent money behind it I find myself enjoying the exploration and education part of it. I found this at Islands in Chester for example and in Land of tne Lions.

I like the context of other animals in the area and the geographical signage etc.

It’s also worth considering who theming is for. I’ve seen visitors talk about Africa many times at Asiatic lion enclosures. If you visit zoos a lot I think it’s easy to forget the benefit of education and context. Even at CWP with whacking great signs about the lions I’ve heard people talk about them being from Africa. In this case the theming takes care of the messaging about the nature and the plight of Asiatic lions. Which us important in the mission to conserve them.

Of course if you don’t like the thing at all I get that it’s a big way to make a point. And you can argue it’s a disproportionate way to make it if you don’t like it and I also get that. But I do like the fact it makes it and does it in a quality not tacky way.

For me Land of the Lions is really just large and effective signage and benefits from the theming for that reason. It’s not as over the top as to make it silly and while providing information in a really ‘big’ way it hasn’t detracted from the husbandry or welfare for the lions who have also had cubs sucessfully.

In terms of theming being equivalent to restoring historical buildings it’s different as the choice is to do something to create a new historical building with all that implies so new exhibitry has the weight of consequence.

 

[PossumRoach]

After seeing more points brought up, I rescind my statement of not voting and I will be voting for Berlin 3/2. It would have been a 4/1 if Land der Jäger did not have jaguar and red panda.

 

[Lafone]

Having reviewed it and thought about Land of the Lions more in response to the interesting discussion on it, I revised my vote upwards, though it's still not 5/0 as I think it's hard to give somewhere a 0 unless it's an effective no contest.

 

[cornu aspersum]

After seeing more points brought up, I rescind my statement of not voting and I will be voting for Berlin 3/2. It would have been a 4/1 if Land der Jäger did not have jaguar and red panda.

Are the red pandas also badly housed?

 

[Kalaw]

Although I disagree, I wholeheartedly respect those who don't like Land of the Lions as an exhibit. But as a lion enclosure, it is excellent, especially for a small urban zoo like London. Yet, unfortunately, the overtheming puts many enthusiasts off. I decided to describe it below, with the help of some pictures, for those who haven't seen it in person to form their own opinion on it as an enclosure, not the overall thing. Could have a fairly significant impact on the vote, I feel.

As briefly touched on in my last post, the main thing that makes this lion enclosure so good is how it manages to offer a myriad of different viewing angles, increasing the likelihood of good views of the lions, but never compromises the animals' privacy in doing so. There are two enclosures, with the larger of which, the moated enclosure, being of a roughly equal size to Berlin's at 1,200 sqm each (excluding the moat itself for both), while the smallest is just short of 900 sqm - the combined area of 2,100 sqm is probably the biggest that I have seen in an urban zoo. Both enclosures are very lushly planted, far more so than is usually the case for the species, with thick bushes and long grass that allow the animals plenty of retreats if need be - as do the multiple offshow indoor areas.

However, if the animals are active, then the number of viewing angles guarantees some good views. Some of the elevated resting platforms allow the lions to get eye-level with the boardwalk. Then there is the infamous 'train station,' which is designed to look like a train platform, split in two by glass, so that you feel as though you are on the same surface, sharing the same space, as the lions. If I remember correct, the lions' half of the platform is heated, and is thus one of their favourite spots of the enclosure, increasing your chance of memorable, up-close views; when they were newborn, it was the place where the cubs and their mother spent most of their time. There are also glass-fronted viewing areas of the moated enclosure, but not the moated side - again, the heated rocks and other areas of comfort for the lions are cleverly positioned right in front of the glass to increase the likelihood of up-close views. Quieter areas like behind the mongooses, or the little pathway beyond the outdoor areas of Blackburn Pavilion, can be good areas for visitors to get away from crowds and still get good views of the lions.

Another strength is that cross-viewing is prevented by the beautiful, mature oak trees that cover elevated windows when you are standing from the lower ones. Unfortunately, this, along with the rather long, winding shape of the moated enclosure, makes finding pictures that show the entire space impossible, so I've had to attach quite a few:

Credit: @Crowthorne - showing I would guess 1/2 of the moated enclosure.

Credit: @Crowthorne - again, I would say a little under half of the space is shown

Credit: @Crowthorne - the other half of the moated enclosure, but shortly after its construction. Needless to say, the whole thing is now covered in grass and all of those bushes are considerably larger.

Credit: gulogulogulo - the controversial train station viewing described above.

It has been about seven years since my last visit to London Zoo, if my memory bears out, but as I recall I felt that the enclosure quality was reasonably good where the welfare of the animals was concerned - but also nothing amazing, and only a minor improvement on the old Lion Terraces from my memory of that exhibit.

I will have to dispute that claim. The space the lions had on the Terraces was roughly a third of the size, if not even smaller, of what they have today, with only the southern half of today's moated enclosure comprising their exhibit.

While I am at it, I thought I would, as I did with Whipsnade, provide some photos of London's other offerings, partly as I am surprised that 'Tiger Territory' isn't being discussed more!

Sumatran Tiger:

Credit: @Swanson02 - the smaller (700 sqm) of the two enclosures, although still quite a bit bigger than Berlin's if I am not mistaken. A very attractive, lushly planted enclosure with a sizable pool. Here, there is also a heated area immediately in front of the glass visitor viewing, allowing for remarkable up-close views, but an equally favourable spot is the long heated rock ridge at the far end, obscured by the impressive tree, allowing for more privacy.

Credit: @MagpieGoose - the larger enclosure, at around 1,300 sqm. Again, its long and winding design makes photographing the whole thing difficult, but I think this image does well to demonstrate the dense foliage in the enclosure, the height of some of the climbing apparatus, and the elegance of the aviary-like netting that covers it all.

Yet again, I would say this is one of the best, if not the best, big cat enclosures that I have seen in a zoo of London's size; a really impressive achievement in my opinion.

Small Indian Mongoose:

The rarity of this species in captivity alone deserves praise, as no other zoo in the world holds the taxa!

Credit: @Maguari - showing roughly half of the enclosure, and doing well to show how dense it s. The metal railing on the bottom right is a continuation of the fake train track in the adjacent lion enclosure.

Dwarf Mongoose:

Credit: @Dr. Loxodonta - a fairly standard enclosure.

Asian Short-clawed Otter:

Credit: @gulogulogulo - I have always thought this was one of the more attractive enclosures I have seen for the species, and certainly one of the larger ones. Don't let how common this particular species of otter is distract from the brilliant landscaping of the so-called 'Otter Holt.'

Bizarrely, there are no photos of the meerkat enclosure on the gallery, but it is fairly standard, and due to the reflectiveness of the glass until recently (thankfully it has now been amended) there are no photos of the boky enclosure that show the whole thing that well, but thankfully the latter enclosure has already been described in great detail upthread.

 

[PossumRoach]

Are the red pandas also badly housed?

No, I just think them being in Zoo Berlin are redundant,within Berlin, since TP Berlin also has them in a much more impressive enclosure. I understand that, unlike the ZSL zoos, the two Berlin zoos are treated as separate entities in this election therefore the “overall picture” probably is irrelevant to this competition. But it would still be nice if the zoo had another species of carnivore instead of red pandas.

 

[cornu aspersum]

No, I just think them being in Zoo Berlin are redundant,within Berlin, since TP Berlin also has them in a much more impressive enclosure. I understand that, unlike the ZSL zoos, the two Berlin zoos are treated as separate entities in this election therefore the “overall picture” probably is irrelevant to this competition. But it would still be nice if the zoo had another species of carnivore instead of red pandas.

Both zoos also have Sumatran tigers and Asian small-clawed otters. From pictures, the Tierpark's tiger enclosure is better than the zoo's but it doesn't necessarily look good on its own and the Tierpark's otter enclosure looks really good although the zoo's enclosure is also not bad, just not as good. Does Berlin get less points for those duplicates too?

 

[PossumRoach]

Both zoos also have Sumatran tigers and Asian small-clawed otters. From pictures, the Tierpark's tiger enclosure is better than the zoo's but it doesn't necessarily look good on its own and the Tierpark's otter enclosure looks really good although the zoo's enclosure is also not bad, just not as good. Does Berlin get less points for those duplicates too?

Good point. I was going to bring up tigers in my original post but misremembered them as separate subspecies so I let it slide. Otherwise then sure, it would be nice if the tigers were gone as well. And the otter enclosure is not impressive either considering that I briefly forgot that the zoo had them.

Unfortunately I can’t get any lower than 3/2 for Berlin. If we were using twenty points, then sure I’d go 11/9 but that’s not the case so I am still voting 3/2 for Berlin.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I understand that, unlike the ZSL zoos, the two Berlin zoos are treated as separate entities in this election therefore the “overall picture” probably is irrelevant to this competition.

It's definitely irrelevant as you said, the two Berlin collections are being judged as distinct entities and as such factors relating to Tierpark Berlin cannot be taken into account here.

On that note, however.... both London and Whipsnade have meerkat and Asian short-clawed otter which for the purposes of your judgement criteria would be relevant.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Honestly, I want to do a bit more digging for photos in the gallery before I actually do it and look at the species lists one more time, but I'm pretty sure that my vote is going to flip 3/2 Berlin as well. I don't think the exhibit quality of Berlin is enough to drag down the superiority of the collection at this point.

I strongly urge you to! For those less familiar with a zoo or whose memory of a zoo is outdated, a good collection breakdown featuring photo examples have done an excellent job of swaying players one way or the other. In general, they are great at helping to highlight the points/claims one has been making.

@Kalaw's photo walkthrough of Land of Lions has managed to do this successfully in reminding me how much better the enclosures there are than I remembered!

A similar photo breakdown from those arguing in favor of Berlin might be crucial at this point. Similarly, a photo record of the habitats which cost Berlin the win in some players' minds could also give ZSL the advantage!

Personally, at the moment I still sway Berlin but it is very, very close.

~Thylo