North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

The Horse Boy

The Horse Boy

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{Note from mods - this thread continues from here: North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation}



Do you guys think toldeo will hold a breeding herd of cows calves and breeding bulls or a bachelor herd of young bulls going forward? They have a young adult bull on site now and it's about an acre large, so it should def have the space and strength for a small bull group with its modern amenities. Then Renée and her daughter could move to much larger facilities like able to hold breeding herds like North Carolina, Cleveland, Dallas, Baltimore, Atlanta, Kansas City, Fresno, or Indianapolis in the coming years. I do think most facilities with the space and strength for bulls are less likely to end their elephant programs (the recently built modern ones mostly).
 
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The Horse Boy said:
Do you guys think toldeo will hold a breeding herd of cows calves and breeding bulls or a bachelor herd of young bulls going forward? They have a young adult bull on site now and it's about an acre large, so it should def have the space and strength for a small bull group with its modern amenities. Then Renée and her daughter could move to much larger facilities like able to hold breeding herds like North Carolina, Cleveland, Dallas, Baltimore, Atlanta, Kansas City, Fresno, or Indianapolis in the coming years. I do think most facilities with the space and strength for bulls are less likely to end their elephant programs (the recently built modern ones mostly).
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I find the possibility of Toledo sending Renee and Kirkja elsewhere very unlikely. Especially now that they have a female calf, they now have a greater possibility than ever to grow a matrilinal herd and doubtlessly that is their goal.
They have the capacity to hold a breeding bull, should they choose, but currently there isn't a need for one as they have exclusively AI'd Renee. I imagine in the future, given all goes well, they would bring in a new bull for Kirkja and send Ajani elswhere.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I find the possibility of Toledo sending Renee and Kirkja elsewhere very unlikely. Especially now that they have a female calf, they now have a greater possibility than ever to grow a matrilinal herd and doubtlessly that is their goal.
They have the capacity to hold a breeding bull, should they choose, but currently there isn't a need for one as they have exclusively AI'd Renee. I imagine in the future, given all goes well, they would bring in a new bull for Kirkja and send Ajani elswhere.
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I just think one acre isn't suitable for a large breeding herd imo. I don't even know what is the maximum number of adult elephants the barn can hold.
And besides, ajani would make a great mentor to young bulls in the future as he was in both breeding and bachelor herds much of his life.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I just think one acre isn't suitable for a large breeding herd imo. I don't even know what is the maximum number of adult elephants the barn can hold.
And besides, ajani would make a great mentor to young bulls in the future as he was in both breeding and bachelor herds much of his life.
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There's been rumblings about Toledo moving their entrance and building a new elephant complex within one of their parking lots, building new parking on some recently acquired land. While I want to see Toledo for myself so I can properly judge, ultimately it's the zoo's call.
 
StoppableSan said:
There's been rumblings about Toledo moving their entrance and building a new elephant complex within one of their parking lots, building new parking on some recently acquired land. While I want to see Toledo for myself so I can properly judge, ultimately it's the zoo's call.
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Either way I'm glad they seem committed to elephants for the future. That habitat isn't bad from the pics and vids I read it opened 10-15 years ago, and they have a spacious barn w natural substrate. But as the years go on I still think it would be more beneficial to the animals if they built a large modern multi acre habitat for them.
 
I don’t think we’re going to see much changing on the Toledo front anytime soon. They have indicated that they are interested in potentially AI’ing Renee again, which I think would be an absolutely excellent move if she’s fit enough for it, but beyond that, I think there will be very little change over the next several years.

Twiggy is a middle aged non-breeder. Ajani is of questionable natural breeding abilities, and essentially sterile on top of that. Neither of them are particularly desirable animals for a new facility to want to pick up, from a practicality standpoint.

I think we will see Twiggy get reintegrated with Renee and Kirkja at some point within the next year or two, and then Ajani once Kirkja is somewhere between three and five. Potentially another calf from Renee at some point in the next 2 to 4 years. I don’t see any animals leaving the facility, nor do I see any being added with the possible exception of a birth. Toledo owns Renee and Kirkja outright, it would make absolutely zero sense whatsoever to transfer them out to another facility, with the logic of them then getting…another mother calf pair from some other facility? that they wouldn’t own. It just makes no sense logistically.
 
I still think ajani would be great with mentoring younger bachelor males wether it be toledo or another facility. And I think the current habitat is better suited for a small bull group than a large multigenerational herd, it being over an acre. Cheyenne, Caldwell, RWP, and Audubon all have state of the art habitats that are more or less an acre and would all make great bachelor spaces in the long run, Caldwell already having two younger male Africans.
 
Well yes, Ajani would make for an excellent mentor bull, but so would virtually any other breeding bull currently in the US. Plus we have several males between the ages of 10 and 15 who were sired by Mabu, who grew up in an excellent herd environment, who are of no big genetic value to get into breeding situations anytime soon, who will also be excellent candidates to serve as mentor bulls down the road.

Toledo isn’t a huge facility, and they can’t hold a massive amount of animals, but they are absolutely capable of holding a small matriarchal herd, and even if they breed to maximum capacity, they will not be able to breed to above their holding capacity for over 10 years. Renee only has one, or at best if they really push their luck, two calf’s left in her. Kirkja won’t be breeding for another 7 to 10 years minimum. Toledo‘s not at a risk of exceeding their holding capacity for a long, long time, and none of their animals need to be anywhere‘s else than they currently are right now.
 
And I just said that the facilities at caldwell cheyenne mountain, audubon, and providence all look to have modern habitats also about 1 acre, and they could make good bachelor or small breeding spaces in the future as they all have geriatric cows elephants but look to have the space and strength for bulls.
 
The Horse Boy said:
And I just said that the facilities at caldwell cheyenne mountain, audubon, and providence all look to have modern habitats also about 1 acre, and they could make good bachelor or small breeding spaces in the future as they all have geriatric cows elephants but look to have the space and strength for bulls.
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Several, if not most (Cleveland and Cheyenne Mountain are two exceptions off the top of my head) of the facilities that currently house geriatric individuals would need to build new complexes before committing to new animals. While smaller exhibits would be suitable for a small bull group or even a small breeding herd, the growing standards practically demand zoos go big or go home (so to speak). My fingers are crossed that many of these holders elect for larger complexs, but the reality is we will see a lot of phase outs.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Several, if not most (Cleveland and Cheyenne Mountain are two exceptions off the top of my head) of the facilities that currently house geriatric individuals would need to build new complexes before committing to new animals. While smaller exhibits would be suitable for a small bull group or even a small breeding herd, the growing standards practically demand zoos go big or go home (so to speak). My fingers are crossed that many of these holders elect for larger complexs, but the reality is we will see a lot of phase outs.
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I even wonder if cheyenne mountain rodger williams and Audubon are bull proof to begin with.
 
Do you guys think cheyenne mountain would be more likely to house a breeding or bachelor herd in the future? They have a 10 year old enclosure with a modern spacious barn, and I'm pretty sure the whole facility is bull proof. And the need for strictly housing geriatric cows will decrease as the years go on. The question is how many elephants are the able hold max since they have about 4 to 5 stalls in the barn and their public enclosure looks to total around just over an acre.
 
The Horse Boy said:
Do you guys think cheyenne mountain would be more likely to house a breeding or bachelor herd in the future? They have a 10 year old enclosure with a modern spacious barn, and I'm pretty sure the whole facility is bull proof. And the need for strictly housing geriatric cows will decrease as the years go on. The question is how many elephants are the able hold max since they have about 4 to 5 stalls in the barn and their public enclosure looks to total around just over an acre.
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they are probably more suitable for a bachelor herd. This zoo is more popular for the giraffes than elephants it seems.
 
Smaggledagle said:
Official confirmation from the Phoenix Zoo in Arizona (as by their senior vice president of animal health and living collection) that once Indu passes the zoo will no longer hold elephants for the foreseeable future, instead converting it into exhibits for Indian rhinos.

As many zoo elephants are sent to sanctuaries, Phoenix Zoo will end its exhibit after Indu dies
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I'm a bit disappointed about this. I mean does the current habitat have the space for a bachelor herd if they were to reinforce the steel posts, renovate and modernize the barn?
 
ZCChip said:
No. They have a male rhino there now sharing the exhibit and barn.
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I think the enclosure is more or less 1 acre. In my opinion, that's prefect for doing bull groups, or even small matrilineal herds w breeding bulls like toledo does.
 
ZCChip said:
No. They have a male rhino there now sharing the exhibit and barn.
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They actually just got a second male Indian rhino who will be kept separated from their other one as they are half-brothers and the older one is fully mature, so they can’t be together. The arrival of that rhino may have been a key indicator for the decision for phasing-out elephants.
 
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