European (Tea)Cup - League D - Pairi Daiza vs Plzen

[TeaLovingDave]

Having come out of one hotly-contested match on the subject, we now have another pair of zoological collections which will be facing off against one another within the category of CARNIVORES; I suspect that this one might be just as hotly-contested, but for rather different reasons given how divisive Pairi Daiza and Plzen have been both within prior iterations of the Zoochat Cup and elsewhere on the forum!

Either way, I very much look forward to the discussion and debate which will hopefully follow in the next three days. Have fun!

 

[twilighter]

I am really sorry, dear Plzen. In the old ZooChat World cup edition you could have chance, but Land of Cold and the Last Frontier it's more than you can chew.

5 species of Bears in a World Class exhibits! Amazing Predator/ Pray displays. Steller Sea Lion cost to remember. And even working on the old flaws, like Leopards. Pairi Daiza is getting stronger and stronger every year.

The Plzen's great small carnivore collection and the Brown Bear woods are the reasons that I will vote only 3:2 for Pairi Daiza, but I am willing to give them more points.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

5 spieces of Bears in a World Class exhibits!

We are usually of pretty similar mind on things, but I definitely disagree with you here I'm saving my full opinions and arguments about the relative merits and issues with the two collections for when more people have posted, but I'll just remark now that the exhibits for the two species of Black Bear are definitely *not* world class, and that I'd be inclined to argue the point on the Brown and Polar too!

For now, the summary of my views is that neither Plzen or Pairi are fantastic in this category, but there are a greater number of low points at Pairi Daiza and many of the apparent high points are flash-but-no-substance for their paying hotel guests, whilst Plzen has a high point which exceeds anything at Pairi Daiza (the Brown Bear exhibit) in my opinion.

 

[birdsandbats]

To help start off, each zoo's carnivore collection according to ZTL:

Pairi Daiza
-American Black Bear
-Binturong
-Polar Bear
-Meerkat
-Gray Wolf (Eurasian and MacKensie Valley subspecies)
-European Brown Bear
-Giant Panda
-Corsac Fox
-Asian Black Bear
-Lion
-Northern Raccoon
-Walrus
-Cougar
-Snow Leopard
-Serval
-Striped Skunk
-Cape Fur Seal
-Cheetah
-Bat-eared Fox
-Generic Tiger
-Spotted Hyena
-Nepalese Red Panda
-Asian Small-clawed Otter

Plzen
-Amur Tiger
-Lion ("Barbary")
-North Chinese Leopard
-Eurasian Otter
-European Brown Bear
-Canada Lynx
-Maned Wolf
-Sunda Leopard Cat
-Palawan Binturong
-Bobcat
-Snow Leopard
-Cheetah
-Marsh Mongoose
-Nepalese Red Panda
-Kinkajou

 

[twilighter]

We are usually of pretty similar mind on things, but I definitely disagree with you here I'm saving my full opinions and arguments about the relative merits and issues with the two collections for when more people have posted, but I'll just remark now that the exhibits for the two species of Black Bear are definitely *not* world class, and that I'd be inclined to argue the point on the Brown and Polar too!

For now, the summary of my views is that neither Plzen or Pairi are fantastic in this category, but there are a greater number of low points at Pairi Daiza and many of the apparent high points are flash-but-no-substance for their paying hotel guests, whilst Plzen has a high point which exceeds anything at Pairi Daiza (the Brown Bear exhibit) in my opinion.

I also love Plzen's Brown Bear exhibit and I mentioned it in my post Still with all my respect to Plzen and understanding the commercial side of Pairi Daiza, I can't disregard the size and quality of the big carnivore exhibits there.

Fair point - 5 Bear World Class was probably exaggerating a bit, trying to emphasise the focus Pairi Daiza has on this particular genera. But even with their flaws it's not much you can compare their facilities in Europe with.

I am happy to hear the others reactions and to keep the discussion

 

[TeaLovingDave]

To help start off, each zoo's carnivore collection according to ZTL:

Pairi Daiza
-American Black Bear
-Binturong
-Polar Bear
-Meerkat
-Gray Wolf (Eurasian and MacKensie Valley subspecies)
-European Brown Bear
-Giant Panda
-Corsac Fox
-Asian Black Bear
-Lion
-Northern Raccoon
-Walrus
-Cougar
-Snow Leopard
-Serval
-Striped Skunk
-Cape Fur Seal
-Cheetah
-Bat-eared Fox
-Generic Tiger
-Spotted Hyena
-Nepalese Red Panda
-Asian Small-clawed Otter

Plzen
-Amur Tiger
-Lion ("Barbary")
-North Chinese Leopard
-Eurasian Otter
-European Brown Bear
-Canada Lynx
-Maned Wolf
-Sunda Leopard Cat
-Palawan Binturong
-Bobcat
-Snow Leopard
-Cheetah
-Marsh Mongoose
-Nepalese Red Panda
-Kinkajou

You've missed quite a few off when it comes to Plzen - all of the below are also mentioned on ZTL for the collection:

Common Slender mongoose (Galerella sanguinea)
Common Cusimanse (Crossarchus obscurus)
East African banded mongoose (Mungos mungo colonus)
East African dwarf mongoose (Helogale parvula undulata)
Eastern Ring-tailed vontsira (Galidia elegans elegans)
Hausa Genet (Genetta thierryi)
South African bat-eared fox (Otocyon megalotis megalotis)
Southern black-backed jackal (Lupulella mesomelas mesomelas)
Striped skunk (Mephitis mephitis)
White-bearded masked palm civet (Paguma larvata leucomystax)
Wolf (Canis lupus)

And for Pairi Daiza you omitted:

Common palm civet (Paradoxurus hermaphroditus)
Dwarf mongoose (Helogale parvula)
Eastern Atlantic harbour seal (Phoca vitulina vitulina)
Indochinese smooth-coated otter (Lutrogale perspicillata perspicillata)
Raccoon dog (Nyctereutes procyonoides)
Steller sea lion (Eumetopias jubatus)

I also love Plzen's Brown Bear exhibit and I mentioned it in my post

So I see - you must have been making that edit at the same time I posted

 

[oflory]

I've gone for 3/2 in favour of Plzen. I've never visited Pairi Daiza (though again, hope to see it for myself either this year or the next).

The collection (predictably) is more interesting at Plzen, especially with small carnivores. It is a pity that the Cape fox died just before the start of this competition! I agree with @TeaLovingDave that the bear exhibit at Plzen is exemplary (approaching Whipsnade levels) but also the tiger enclosure is pretty good too. The lions, despite renovations, seem to be a bit cramped, but that may just be the layout of the exhibit. I also just really love it as a zoo.

Pairi Daiza falls down for me on the over-stocking of exhibits (something I have read on this forum, not personally seen) and the gaudy theming.

 

[Jogy]

I've been multiple times to Pairi Daiza and also visited Plzen in 2023 for the first time.

About PD most general arguments have been exchanged multiple times already - with people (like me) either loving their approach to create 'worlds' by combining animals, plants, architecture, cultural artefacts and stones into one holisitic offering - or they hate it as they feel the money could be better spent in even better enclosures or e.g. behind the scene facilities and don't like e.g. the option that you can sleep at the zoo...

Plzen has been on my bucket list for many years - mainly due to its long list of rarities and extensive animal collection. Maybe I was a bit unfortunate when I visited as it was a very hot day and I've just been coming from zoo prague whih I found really impressive - however I must say that I've been a bit disapointed from what I saw. Clearly there are many rare animals signed (unfortunately quite a bunch was not visible) but many of the enclosures I perceived as quite ordinary with some nice exceptions like the brown bears already mentioned but also poor ones like for some of the small carnivores.

When now looking at the comparison for carnivores I've defined for me 5 categories:

Number of species:

As listed above PD is winning here 29 to 26

Iconic animals:

Even if the race for number of species is relatively close I must admit that for me personally I'm more impressed by iconic animals like walrus, polar bear, stellar sea lion or giant panda than with multiple mongoose species...

So PD clearly wins this category for me

Rarities:

PD has some rarities with walrus, stellar sea lion, Corsac Fox, Indochinese smooth-coated otter or giant panda - however Plzen has a longer list of rarities that PD does not have like Bobcat, North Chinese Leopard, Sunda Leopard Cat, Eastern Ring-tailed vontsira, multiple mongoose species, Southern black-backed jackal or Kinkajou,...

I this category I see Plzen winning

Enclosures:

Knowing that there are exceptions in both directions I overall prefer the enclosures at PD compared to Plzen.

When looking at some of the enclosures at PD that caused the biggest criticism in the past - leopards and clouded leopards - both have been adopted with now being more adequate for servals and palm civets...
However also at Pilzen I had the perception that some of the enclosures (especially for the small carnivores) were quite poor with museum style small cages one after the other...

Except of the brown bear enclosure at Plzen (which is a really huge part of a natural forest) I can't remember any outstanding or impressive carnivore enclosure at Plzen whereas several of the enclosures at PD are really huge and/or impressive (e.g. brown bear/wolf, black bear, stellar sea lion, polar bear, amur tiger, snow leopard, lion, red panda, bintourong, asian small clawed otter,...)

PD wins this category for me

Conservation efforts:

Plzen states on their homepage some projects they are working - however none of them are related to carnivores and overall the initatives of Plzen are not comparable to the size and variety of projets at Pairi Daiza Foundation with multiple of them focussing on carnivores.

This is a clear win for PD

Summary

My overall vote is 4:1 for PD.

When looking at the individual categories PD wins 4 out of 5 but also from an overall feeling I see a clear win for PD in this category but still want to give one point to Plzen as they are not bad with carnivores (just not at the level of PD) and have a lot of rarities in their collection

 

[lintworm]

Overall not a category either zoo excels in and I am not sure what to vote yet. Both zoos have serious issues when it comes to displaying carnivores, albeit different ones, even though both have improved in recent years.

Some Pairi Daiza issues:
- potentially great, but badly overstocked brown- & black bear & Siberian tiger exhibits. Recently a black bear was killed in there....
- Keeping harbour seals in a freshwater pond without filtration and questionable water quality.
- Some small/boring enclosures where all the attention has gone towards looks...

The Plzen issue:
- Several small carnivores in shoeboxes (genets & slender mongoose come to mind).

Pairi Daiza has more impressive looking exhibits, though most are certainly not faultless, but Plzen has some very nice unassuming exhibits too like both lynx enclosures. I am inclined to give Plzen the edge on account of doing a better job in building new exhibits/phasing out unsuitable species whereas many new enclosures in Pairi Daiza still have plenty of issues....

Conservation efforts:

Plzen states on their homepage some projects they are working - however none of them are related to carnivores and overall the initatives of Plzen are not comparable to the size and variety of projets at Pairi Daiza Foundation with multiple of them focussing on carnivores.

Looking at the actual contribution of Pairi Daiza towards carnivore conservation, there is fairly little it has to show for it. Some small contributions towards red panda & walrus conservation/research as well as a somewhat larger contribution for polar bears. But all in all, it doesn't amount to much. I don't think conservation contributions are a good tool in this game as many zoos are bound to oversell their contribution (Pairi Daiza has a very notorious reputation in that regard) and few zoos are clear on what they actually do and what it did yield.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I am once again asking @ZH5199 to either engage with the game properly by posting reasons for their 5-0 vote (or adjusting it to a more reasonable level), or to cease wasting everyone's time by making them in the first place.

 

[amur leopard]

Just a note that I've been to neither of the zoos in question, so am going entirely off what I've heard and seen.

Pairi Daiza is one of those frustrating situations (which is repeated in Beauval's more recent developments to a lesser extent, or so I've heard) of a zoo which very evidently has the means to make brilliant living situations for their animals and yet, again and again, manages to avoid doing so.

While perhaps the aim of the cup is judge zoos in absolute terms (that is to say, without necessarily factoring in financials and opportunity), I find it hard to steer clear of this context in this particular tie. Plzen has its own issues too, but PD's feel that much more careless and needless that it's very hard to overlook them.

 

[Penshet]

Just a note that I've been to neither of the zoos in question, so am going entirely off what I've heard and seen.

Pairi Daiza is one of those frustrating situations (which is repeated in Beauval's more recent developments to a lesser extent, or so I've heard) of a zoo which very evidently has the means to make brilliant living situations for their animals and yet, again and again, manages to avoid doing so.

While perhaps the aim of the cup is judge zoos in absolute terms (that is to say, without necessarily factoring in financials and opportunity), I find it hard to steer clear of this context in this particular tie. Plzen has its own issues too, but PD's feel that much more careless and needless that it's very hard to overlook them.

I could not agree more. A zoo which has the means (like no other!) to build the best exhibits for its animals, and fails to do so while recording record profits (for their shareholders), is not deserving of a win in my opinion.

They have nice enclosures and a good collection, both on average arguably better than Plzens, but I cannot in good faith vote for a win for Pairi Daiza here.

3-2 Plzen for me

 

[Kalaw]

At first I was thinking this would be an easy win for Pairi Daiza and intended to cast my vote that way. As I mentioned in the Artis / Vienna thread, the logic I intend to use for matches in which I haven't visited either zoo is simply to ask myself "which one would I rather visit to see the category in question?"

And from the knowledge I had heading into this, Pairi seemed well ahead. Walruses alone are a major claim to greatness even before factoring in the stunning underwater viewing into a very deep pool, with another impressive pinniped species, one that I haven't seen in person yet, also displayed well in the Steller's Sea Lion. Great enclosures for Polar Bears and Giant Pandas, five species of bear, what appear to be strong enclosures for lions and hyenas, and a bigger collection.

But the more I think about it, the more I realise that it may not be so simple. Pairi Daiza's white tiger temple is precisely how *not* to do theming. It is clear that the emphasis was on the awe of a replica temple, and that therefore they designed that first, and then made the animal space around the decorations, which resulted in a poor enclosure - shamelessly compromising animal welfare for the sake of an impressive sightline. Of course, the zoo did this with Javan Leopards as well until recently, when they made the smart move to go out of the taxa, although quite questionably replaced them with African Servals who are clearly out-of-place in an Oriental temple. Then there are the Harbour Seals in the lake; I am by no means an expert on the subject, and from a brief google search there appears to be contradictory statements from different sources on the matter, but I am fairly certain the majority of pinnipeds can experience serious eye irritation if in freshwater for long periods of time. If I am not mistaken, Pairi Daiza also recently downsized their Asiatic Black Bear enclosure so as to expand the Giant Panda enclosure, which wasn't really in any need of improvement - a serious misstep if I am understanding correctly.

Plzen on the other hand has a Brown Bear enclosure that far exceeds the best of Pairi, and the Grey Wolf enclosure merits similar praise in my eyes. If nothing else, the gradient of the Snow Leopard enclosure is admirable, with the Maned Wolf and Siberian Tiger enclosures also looking delightful in photos, while the collection is only marginally smaller and features more choice smaller taxa, even if some of them are very poorly housed.

I don't like having to vote against a zoo with walruses in a category where they are relevant, but I think too much of Pairi Daiza is too poor in some way or another for me not to. 3-2 Plzen.

I am going to come out now with a bold prediction - Pairi Daiza will be the shock first-round elimination of the tournament; I truly don't believe they will make it past the group stage. They are already on course to lose to Plzen (I know it is still early days in this fixture), and with Tierpark Berlin and Leipzig coming up, things don't get much easier from here. They could easily 'drop points' against Wilhelma or Nuremberg as well with an unlucky category draw.

 

[lintworm]

I don't like having to vote against a zoo with walruses in a category where they are relevant, but I think too much of Pairi Daiza is too poor in some way or another for me not to. 3-2 Plzen.

I feel quite surprised myself to vote for Plzen with their atrocious enclosures for hausa genet, slender mongoose and ring-tailed vontsira. There are several other enclosures there that are also quite average (lions, leopards, otters, cheetah), but at least there are some really good ones that don't have obvious issues. Apart from the aforementioned bear & lynx enclosures, I also like the set of mongoose exhibits attached to the Africa house with dwarf mongoose, zebra mongoose and cusimanse, as well as bat-eared fox.

Pairi Daiza has some pretty good enclosures too. Their puma enclosure is far superior to the cat enclosures in Plzen and the expanded snow leopard exhibit is quite attractive, as is the cheetah exhibit. I suppose the binturong are also fine in their weird mix with bharal, but they have trees. I am just not a fan of most others. The Steller's sea lion exhibit is great at first sight, but the actual swimming room is quite limited with all the rock work. And there are faults to be found in most other exhibits as well. So in the end, I can still justify it...

 

[Lafone]

First time jumping in to rate zoos I haven't been to. Given the quality information and great discussion though I'll take a leap and look at Plzn and Pairi Daiza, particularly because I'd actually love to visit both.

First impression I agree with Kalaw and the very 'flash' Pairi Daiza seems an easy win. But there are lots of things to like about the early view of Plzn, not least their large collection of mongoose which are some of my favourite animals (though dwarfed literally and figuratively by the larger carnivores in both collections and I get not everyone loves 234 variants on a meerkat). I'd go to a collection that just had all the mongoose.

I would also say that if we debated theming in regard to Land of the Lions in the Berlin / Whipsnade thread Pairi Daiza takes the cake, makes a model of it, whacks on 20 candles and pops a tiger in it.

Thinking about the overall cup and zoos in general I find I am more swayed by exhibitry than variety / collection size animals, but the qualification of a great exhibit for me is around husbandry and welfare as well as spectacle and context. So I'll be looking for carnivores to be housed in great enclosures with interesting signage and opportunities to engage with information and of course hang about to watch the animals.

I did take a wander around the zoo official websites

Discover Pairi Daiza

If the zoo is an event hub, this highly professional website is the window into 'experience' lead curation. It's a little telling perhaps that the main homepage links are orientated to the visitor and the animals are a layer below, contained in their experience centres. I guess this reflects the actual collection where the animals are in these regions.

Still, some wonderful photos and information on the collection. But a bit more focus on the human areas than the other animal ones.

Leads me to ask people who have visited - is it hard to find your way around PD or is the navigation and signposting sufficient to identify the animals you want to see? I do factor this into a rating as in order to appreciate a thing you have to be able to find it.

Plzn has a few links but I think this is the official site.

Zoo Plzeň

It's obviously a lower budget affair, but it has a lot of information on the areas and animals and nice features on the gardens.It's easy to find information on the animals (grouped by geographic region) and other activities. I felt I learned something about the zoo from the site (carnivores and wider) vs finding my way to booking an experience so, as such, a more conventional 'zoo' site than Pairi Daiza.

Moving on to the zoos themselves, Some wonderful animals on both lists. The smaller carnivores look particularly attractive for Plzn but it can come down to how they are shown. PD clearly takes the seals, Sealion and Polar bear space. I'll revist when I have looked at exhibits and read a bit more.

I'd like a bit more information on the carnivore over stocking issues at PD referenced here as I am not familiar with the discussions on them and it sounds like a material piece of information. Are there particular species that are over stocked, is it from over breeding or bad design and is it a temporary, historical, recent or simply persistent issue?

 

[twilighter]

I guess Pairi Daiza will always get some backlash from the traditional zoo lover and there's a hard logic behind it. Their "Posh" stile is not for everyone's taste. I mentioned the Leopards, because I remember that PD got a lot of criticism for the Clouded and Javan Leopard exhibits. They are not present anymore.

I will not say any negative word for Plzen welfare, because on all my visits there, I met very passionate people and had unforgettable encounters with very rare mammals, including carnivores.

Just it is hard for me to imagine, how Zoo which employees 500 keepers, researchers and vets, and provide vast space for their large Carnivores have low animal welfare for their animals.

Yes, there’s a lot of decorating and comersial lights, but I am still greatfull that the place like Pairi Daiza, even with their flaws, exist and push the boundaries of zoo world.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I'd like a bit more information on the carnivore over stocking issues at PD referenced here as I am not familiar with the discussions on them and it sounds like a material piece of information. Are there particular species that are over stocked, is it from over breeding or bad design and is it a temporary, historical, recent or simply persistent issue?

More substantial thoughts to follow after I finish work, but the basic answer is that it's a deliberate choice and the exhibits in question (especially the American Black Bear exhibit and the nearby Brown Bear and Grey Wolf exhibit) are deliberately overstocked in order to ensure the guests staying in lodges and other such accommodation are guaranteed to see lots of animals. This applies throughout the various hotels/lodges/rooms across the zoo and not just the ones adjacent to exhibits relevant to this question, incidentally.

 

[remar]

And from the knowledge I had heading into this, Pairi seemed well ahead. Walruses alone are a major claim to greatness even before factoring in the stunning underwater viewing into a very deep pool, with another impressive pinniped species,

The walruses at PD are another example for a quite new exhibit that isn't as large as a newly build exhibit should be (especially if you are not limited by money)

@Lafone one example are the black bears. If i remember it correctly they already had five American black bears. And as this wasn't enough they made an unnecessary import of ten animals from America to put them on display at the same exhibit with the already present bears. @lintworm already mentioned the result of this.

Imo carnivores are a perfect mirror for both of the zoos. PD with the big and shiny species, Plzen with smaller, rare ones. Both of them have good exhibits as well as weak ones.

 

[Dassie rat]

I used birdsandbats's list and deducted animals found at Pairi Daiza and Plzen. This left 19 for Pairi Daiza and 11 for Plzen. I also added points for animals represented in up to 10 collections, according to Zootierliste. This gave a final score of 19 for Pairi Daiza and 14 for Prague. I have given the score 3-2 to Pairi Daiza

 

[Lafone]

Great information on the overstock issue at PD and look forward to more on that as that's quite a bit of a downer for me...I don't like seeing animals forced into positions for us as visitors.

In the meantime took a look at the galleries must call out @KevinB and @twilighter in particular for some great enclosure shots at PD and some great angles at Plzen from @vogelcommando and @Green_mamba and all the others who have taken time to share pictures.

There is for me the consideration that there is a lot of wow at PD but they could (and perhaps should) do better given the money available compared to the concerted efforts at Plzn as a municipial zoo but then we can only judge what's in front.

The other thing I am interested in is if anyone has a list of enclosures considered less than ideal at both places. So far I am hearing / seeing tigers are over themed and bears / wolves overstocked at PD and the polar enclosure seems small (compared to others I have seen) and then for PD some small carnivores in more restricted conditions.

Then on the positive front the bear enclosure at Plzn looks great, as does the lynx and at PD the bears space look amazing (but too many in there) and the polar bear underwater viewing and polar area in general is quite something.