North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

I guess the current elephant yards and barn at phx never had the space to house bulls nor was it bull-proof. And as I have said a few times on here that a lot of the enclosures that are likely to, and have before, abandon their elephant programs were never strong enough to keep males, like hogle for instance as slightly newer facility. I think it's more a recent requirement of the past few decades that new elephant enclosures had to be able to hold bulls long term even if they started out by just holding cows.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I guess the current elephant yards and barn at phx never had the space to house bulls nor was it bull-proof. And as I have said a few times on here that a lot of the enclosures that are likely to, and have before, abandon their elephant programs were never strong enough to keep males, like hogle for instance as slightly newer facility. I think it's more a recent requirement of the past few decades that new elephant enclosures had to be able to hold bulls long term even if they started out by just holding cows.
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@The Horse Boy : I think we all understand your interest in bachelor herd facilities, but if you could limit posting essentially the same opinion multiple times in multiple threads, the forum would likely be appreciative. It is creating a lot of posts without adding additional value or information. Thanks!
 
MidwestFan said:
@The Horse Boy : I think we all understand your interest in bachelor herd facilities, but if you could limit posting essentially the same opinion multiple times in multiple threads, the forum would likely be appreciative. It is creating a lot of posts without adding additional value or information. Thanks!
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Yeah I'm autistic and sometimes can be too repetive in my topics and behavior lol XD. But seriously, I have seen that we all have discussed on this site that we need more facilities able to keep bull groups in the coming years as we have a lot of bull calves on the ground right now and def in the future.
 
The Horse Boy said:
Yeah I'm autistic and sometimes can be too repetive in my topics and behavior lol XD. But seriously, I have seen that we all have discussed on this site that we need more facilities able to keep bull groups in the coming years as we have a lot of bull calves on the ground right now and def in the future.
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yes it has been discussed many times. But we are not zoo administrators and do not make the decisions. I can tell you that you can watch the European zoos. USA slowly follows their management style. For example s bachelor group along a breeding group similar to emmen.

many zoos are landlocked and unable to take a group of bull elephants such as Memphis. It’s a postage stamp sized exhibit as well with too many cows on site for example. Some zoos plan to phase out. Elephants are expensive! Plus they can be difficult at times to manage.
 
ZCChip said:
yes it has been discussed many times. But we are not zoo administrators and do not make the decisions. I can tell you that you can watch the European zoos. USA slowly follows their management style. For example s bachelor group along a breeding group similar to emmen.

many zoos are landlocked and unable to take a group of bull elephants such as Memphis. It’s a postage stamp sized exhibit as well with too many cows on site for example. Some zoos plan to phase out. Elephants are expensive! Plus they can be difficult at times to manage.
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There are some American zoos that currently keep geriatric elephants in more newer spacious habitats that centrainly have the space to take in either bachelor, multigenerational groups or both. Here's some I've read that can do that with little to no renovations:
● Atlanta
●Audubon (they have a new exhibit and should be bull proof for bachelors)
●Bronx (if they plan new exhibit in the future)
● Busch Gardens Tampa ( I read they kept a bull there for a few years)
●Cheyenne Mountain
●Cleveland Metroparks
● Jacksonville (the next phase of their master plan looks to upgrade the elephant space as well as move the lions to a new habitat.)
● Los Angeles
●Maryland
●Memphis (their first phase of their new master plan is to make a new complex)
● Miami (both asian and african)
●Milwaukee (they can already manage bulls)
● Rodger Williams ( I'm very unsure if they will hold ellies long term).
●Tulsa

Point is that it may not be necessary to make a completely new bachelor habitat from scratch at the moment. I know the brookfield and san antonio zoos are adamant they will built new elephant habitats in the near future once they finalize their current projects. Louisville has also said they will look into making a modern elephant space once they send their two elephants to the elephant sanctuary this summer. And hopefully knoxville, nashville, little rock, hogle, riverbanks, and phoenix can eventually fundraise to build spacious elephant complexes.
 
The Horse Boy said:
There are some American zoos that currently keep geriatric elephants in more newer spacious habitats that centrainly have the space to take in either bachelor, multigenerational groups or both. Here's some I've read that can do that with little to no renovations:
● Atlanta
●Audubon (they have a new exhibit and should be bull proof for bachelors)
●Bronx (if they plan new exhibit in the future)
● Busch Gardens Tampa ( I read they kept a bull there for a few years)
●Cheyenne Mountain
●Cleveland Metroparks
● Jacksonville (the next phase of their master plan looks to upgrade the elephant space as well as move the lions to a new habitat.)
● Los Angeles
●Maryland
●Memphis (their first phase of their new master plan is to make a new complex)
● Miami (both asian and african)
●Milwaukee (they can already manage bulls)
● Rodger Williams ( I'm very unsure if they will hold ellies long term).
●Tulsa

Point is that it may not be necessary to make a completely new bachelor habitat from scratch at the moment. I know the brookfield and san antonio zoos are adamant they will built new elephant habitats in the near future once they finalize their current projects. Louisville has also said they will look into making a modern elephant space once they send their two elephants to the elephant sanctuary this summer. And hopefully knoxville, nashville, little rock, hogle, riverbanks, and phoenix can eventually fundraise to build spacious elephant complexes.
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Most of the facilities listed (minus a few such as Cleveland, Tulsa, LA, etc which were built with the intention of housing a breeding herd) would almost certianly need to expand/build new complexes before investing in a breeding herd or bachelors. While some of these exhibits would be technically satisfactory to hold bigger groups, zoos know they will not only have a larger capacity with new, large habitats but also stronger public popularity.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that new bachelor facilities will be new holders, but just pointing out the fact that the future of those holders is very up in the air.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Most of the facilities listed (minus a few such as Cleveland, Tulsa, LA, etc which were built with the intention of housing a breeding herd) would almost certianly need to expand/build new complexes before investing in a breeding herd or bachelors. While some of these exhibits would be technically satisfactory to hold bigger groups, zoos know they will not only have a larger capacity with new, large habitats but also stronger public popularity.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that new bachelor facilities will be new holders, but just pointing out the fact that the future of those holders is very up in the air.
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I know jacksonville and memphis plan for new habitats. And I think cheyenne and Audubon could use the space for a small bull group in the coming years as I know audubon can hold up to 4, and Cheyenne looks to hold up to 4-5 or 6 max. And milwaukee and atlanta can hold up to a sizeable number as their enclosures opened 5 years ago. And I've seen y'all say on here that maryland eventually plans for a bull group. But plans do change of course, and everything is more up to zoo management rather than visitors and zoochatters.


I also know that caldwell and san diego initially held elder cows before they brought in a couple of young bulls. Dallas also strictly held a herd of older cows when their exhibit opened in 2010. Then the swazi herd of 5, including tendaji the breeding bull, came 5 years later, and didn't really upgrade the habitat to accommodate them with the golden girls, and now they have a successful breeding program, and soon they plan on adding an indoor elephant great room. So you never know what good thing can come with good elephant programs.
 
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I wonder what the future of pittsburgh's elephant program will look like now that they just got aza accredited in September and released their master plan a few wks after. I can tell their barn needs a big makeover.
 
With the upcoming phase outs of phoenix and louisville, it is true we will see some considerable phase outs in the future as we already have over the past two decades. Most of them are enclosures that have strictly held geriatric cows in exhibits viewed as outdated by modern standards, with even the inability to house bulls. But other zoos have made large investments to build modern elephant habitats with the ability to house multigenerational herds, breeding bulls, and/or bachelor groups- cincy and tulsa have about just opened and brookfield and san antonio are emphatic about building world class elephant facilities in the near future. That said, i decided to make list of American zoos that I think will keep elephants long term:

Asian:
1.Albuquerque
2. Audubon
3. Bronx (maybe, if they decide to commit to them)
4. Busch Gardens (they may need a new enclosure in the future, but they have kept spike the bull for a few years a decade ago)
5.Cincinnati
6. Columbus
7. Denver
8. Dickerson Park
9. Fort Worth
10. Honolulu (earlier articles said they are able to keep bulls and their exhibit seems modern)
11. Houston
12. Los Angeles
13. Miami
14. Oklahoma City
16. Oregon (Portland)
17. Rosamond Gifford
18. Saint Louis
19. San Antonio
20. Smithsonian
21. Tulsa

African:

1. Atlanta
2. Birmingham
3. Brookfield
4. Caldwell
5. Cheyenne Mountain
6. Cleveland Metroparks
7. Dallas
8. Disney Animal Kingdom
9. Fresno Chaffee
10. Indianapolis
11. Jacksonville (they have plans for a modernized habitat alongside a new lion ridge.)
12. Kansas City
13. Maryland.
14. Memphis (the first phase of their master plan is a world class enclosure
15. Miami
16. Milwaukee
17. North Carolina
18. Omaha
19. Pittsburgh (they should overhaul the barn and extend the outdoor space as part of their master plan)
20. Reid Park
21. Rodger Williams
22. San Diego
23. San Diego Safari Park
24. Sedgwick
25. Tampa
26. Toledo

On the whole it pretty much looks like we'll see more American zoos holding African elephants than Asians in the future, even with all the cool Asian habitats we have. Many of the zoos that would have been elephant-less (oakland, riverbanks, phoenix, hogle, knoxville, nashville, louisville and maybe waco) for some time most likely will bring in Africans if they decide to eventually build modern complexes for them. But I'm just speculating lol
 
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The Horse Boy said:
Asian:
1.Albuquerque
2. Audubon
3. Bronx (maybe, if they decide to commit to them)
4. Busch Gardens (they may need a new enclosure in the future, but they have kept spike the bull for a few years a decade ago)
5.Cincinnati
6. Columbus
7. Denver
8. Dickerson Park
9. Fort Worth
10. Honolulu (earlier articles said they are able to keep bulls and their exhibit seems modern)
11. Houston
12. Los Angeles
13. Miami
14. Oklahoma City
16. Oregon (Portland)
17. Rosamond Gifford
18. Saint Louis
19. San Antonio
20. Smithsonian
21. Tulsa
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I may be wrong on this, but I swore I read something a while ago that said Honolulu will no longer keep elephants after their girls pass. Even if they didn't say anything I would be very surprised if they opted to continue holding them. It isn't a small task to move elephants across oceans, and given that Hololulu is the only Hawaiian holder of elephants it would be more of a hassle to move any individuals to and from the facility.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I may be wrong on this, but I swore I read something a while ago that said Honolulu will no longer keep elephants after their girls pass. Even if they didn't say anything I would be very surprised if they opted to continue holding them. It isn't a small task to move elephants across oceans, and given that Hololulu is the only Hawaiian holder of elephants it would be more of a hassle to move any individuals to and from the facility.
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Any ideas on the future for busch gardens?
 
I know the elephant breeding history, and elephant history in general, at pittsburgh zoo is so long that I'm a pretty skeptical they won't be part of the master plan. I think they just need to extend the outdoor space into the old giraffe/zebra yard and overhaul the barn with bull proof bollards, multiple stalls for each herd member, and put sand flooring in most of it. They then can bring in porven bulls like sdudla, callee, tendaji, or mabu, or bring in younger African bulls currently in bachelor settings. It might be costly but it's doable.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I may be wrong on this, but I swore I read something a while ago that said Honolulu will no longer keep elephants after their girls pass. Even if they didn't say anything I would be very surprised if they opted to continue holding them. It isn't a small task to move elephants across oceans, and given that Hololulu is the only Hawaiian holder of elephants it would be more of a hassle to move any individuals to and from the facility.
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From a logistics standpoint it could go either way - they imported two black rhinos from San Diego Zoo Safari Park and two giraffes from Albuquerque Biopark, so logically elephants wouldn't be too different. Honolulu most likely could hold surplus elephants post Mari and Vaigai.
 
StoppableSan said:
From a logistics standpoint it could go either way - they imported two black rhinos from San Diego Zoo Safari Park and two giraffes from Albuquerque Biopark, so logically elephants wouldn't be too different. Honolulu most likely could hold surplus elephants post Mari and Vaigai.
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I also think they could be a breeding or bachelor facility in the future. I think the facility would need an upgrade for that tho.

Even if they did phase out the species, no biggie, pun intended. They have the lowry park zoo minutes down the road. Their elephant facility looks quite nice in my opinion, and they have had some decent breeding success. I think they should expand the barn there and use metal fence posts for their outdoor habitat instead wooden ones as they're more likely to withstand bulls.
 
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The Horse Boy said:
Any ideas on the future for busch gardens?
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Long term future I cannot say, but in the near future from what the keepers said in a behind the scenes tour is that the program will depend on Karnaudi there youngest well being, given her age gap with the other 3 females. Once all the older girls pass the decision will be made to either bring in more elephants to keep her company or to move her along to another facility. They were doing renovations of the barn at the time of my tour but that doesn’t mean a phase out isn’t in their future.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I also think they could be a breeding or bachelor facility in the future. I think the facility would need an upgrade for that tho.

Even if they did phase out the species, no biggie, pun intended. They have the lowry park zoo minutes down the road. Their elephant facility looks quite nice in my opinion, and they have had some decent breeding success. I think they should expand the barn there and use metal fence posts for their outdoor habitat instead wooden ones as they're more likely to withstand bulls.
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Are you still referring to Honolulu Zoo??
Because Lowry Park Zoo, now mostly known as Zoo Tampa is in Florida and Honolulu is Hawaii like total opposites in terms of location
 
StoppableSan said:
From a logistics standpoint it could go either way - they imported two black rhinos from San Diego Zoo Safari Park and two giraffes from Albuquerque Biopark, so logically elephants wouldn't be too different. Honolulu most likely could hold surplus elephants post Mari and Vaigai.
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I see your point, but elephants versus giraffes and rhinos are a little different in terms of transport practices. While certianly megafauna, elephants (especially bulls) outweigh them. I was moreso considering bulls in my thoughts as they would have to be factored into whatever kind of holder Honolulu would be. It is common practice to not fly mature bulls overseas unless absoloutely needed for welfare issues. This means that it would be difficult to swap out breeding bulls and/or bachelor males given that after the age of 20 or so they become exponentially more expensive and difficult to fly.
I don't think there will be excess Non-Reproductive cows floating around by the time Mari and Vaigai pass either, and if there were they almost certianly would not be sent to Honolulu when TES is a cheaper and more popular option.

While plausible, it feels just like an overly expensive endeavor that I'm unsure would he feasible long-term.
 
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