The Cat Survival Trust Cat Survival Trust

Your indoctrinated justification of this place and it's manic owner makes me want to vomit.

I hope he gets the book thrown at him.

I hope the cats that survive have decent homes after their incarceration.

Those that are too ill (and if there are a number, WHY are so many that ARE ill?), will have a release from pain and suffering they obviously were not going to get from Captain Madcap.
 
tigergem said:
It was not a zoo it was a sanctuary, run entirely by volunteers, no one made any commercial gain, the small amount of money made from photography days and donations went to looking after the cats

the same court where it was said that homes had been found for all the animals! it was a lie to secure a conviction. the wildcat was taken to the vet, where they gave him treatment which did not improve his absces so he was taken back again then they put him down, the jungle cat died suddenly over night which was very unexpected, and the caracal was taken to the vet, where he had a hernia which they could not do anything for so he was put down, the 4th one relates to a domestic cat which i have no idea about so cant offer any info

google maps gives me a calculation of 121m area for the snow leopard enclosure at Hertfordshire zoo, which would mean that it was not in violation of the zoo licencing requirements, that they didn't even need to follow as they were not a zoo so weren't licenced as one, they took in the cats that zoos did not want, most of the cats there were small cats which most zoos don't even bother displaying as they don't bring in money, and the few big cats were old so obviously weren't going to be doing much running around anyway, the jaguar is 20 years old, and i am so scared about what is going to happen to her.
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Terrence Moore was allowed to keep the cats on the site specifically to rehome them, despite the animal ban based on his conviction. No one said the cats had homes to secure a conviction.

I have to wonder what everyone involved in this place was doing while Terrence Moore avoided vet treatment for animals because of his strange views and then left dead cats in a freezer.

It’s a great shame some of the cats are now going to be euthanised, but the state of this place, the state of the cats and his prosecution are on Terrence Moore and there is at least some moral responsibility for those people who enabled him.

Your posts trying to justify this and indeed this whole situation are a sad demonstration of the proverb that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The animals are paying for it.
 
tigergem said:
It was not a zoo it was a sanctuary, run entirely by volunteers, no one made any commercial gain, the small amount of money made from photography days and donations went to looking after the cats

the same court where it was said that homes had been found for all the animals! it was a lie to secure a conviction. the wildcat was taken to the vet, where they gave him treatment which did not improve his absces so he was taken back again then they put him down, the jungle cat died suddenly over night which was very unexpected, and the caracal was taken to the vet, where he had a hernia which they could not do anything for so he was put down, the 4th one relates to a domestic cat which i have no idea about so cant offer any info

google maps gives me a calculation of 121m area for the snow leopard enclosure at Hertfordshire zoo, which would mean that it was not in violation of the zoo licencing requirements, that they didn't even need to follow as they were not a zoo so weren't licenced as one, they took in the cats that zoos did not want, most of the cats there were small cats which most zoos don't even bother displaying as they don't bring in money, and the few big cats were old so obviously weren't going to be doing much running around anyway, the jaguar is 20 years old, and i am so scared about what is going to happen to her.
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Yes we get it it's not a zoo, hence the lack of zoo licence, but that doesn't excuse the small substandard housing for the cats,none of which would meet what was required for a zoo licence, I know a few private big cat keepers none of whom would ever think of keeping a cat in an enclosure like the ones here, and more to the point they would pass a zoo inspection if they decided to take one,in fact one place was even used to film a visit to a zoo on a tv series because they could have the run of the site and people tried to work out which zoo it was. Also you assume I'm purely using a visit from 20 years ago, I'm not and in all that time I've seen little or no improvement,sad when you think how much zoos have changed in that time, but it's alright for a sanctuary to be stuck in a time warp. It's clear that you are blinded by the close encounters you have had with the cats over the years and that is fine if that floats your boat. Oh and by the way there used to be another private collection of cats in Welwyn sadly now closed,but the Santiago rare leopard project beat the BCS hands down and that wasn't a zoo and run on a dwal like yourselves but the animals came first and got the best care possible.
 
I don't understand how the place was running under a DWAL,a DWAL covers" one named animal " therefore it would have needed numerous DWAL,which would have cost a fortune. So if the authorities hadn't issued those licenses ,WHY NOT? It seems to me, that there were serious mistakes over many years
 
Lafone said:
Terrence Moore was allowed to keep the cats on the site specifically to rehome them, despite the animal ban based on his conviction. No one said the cats had homes to secure a conviction.

I have to wonder what everyone involved in this place was doing while Terrence Moore avoided vet treatment for animals because of his strange views and then left dead cats in a freezer.

It’s a great shame some of the cats are now going to be euthanised, but the state of this place, the state of the cats and his prosecution are on Terrence Moore and there is at least some moral responsibility for those people who enabled him.

Your posts trying to justify this and indeed this whole situation are a sad demonstration of the proverb that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The animals are paying for it.
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I think it's sad that you believe that all volunteers had any negative part in this. There were many members including myself that did not agree with the enclosure sizes but did work hard to keep the enclusres clean, feed the animals and provide enrichment for no pay!
The animals were often looked after but yes, like so many zoos and private collections it fell on hard times and they did not have any money to build bigger enclosures.
Many of the animals were rescued from private collectors who would have put them down had it not been for the CST intervening.
Yes, things could have been better but it was no where near as bad as being made out in the media. Don't believe everything you read. It was set up with good intentions but sadly things fell by the wayside.
 
Bigcatvolunteer3 said:
I think it's sad that you believe that all volunteers had any negative part in this. There were many members including myself that did not agree with the enclosure sizes but did work hard to keep the enclusres clean, feed the animals and provide enrichment for no pay!
The animals were often looked after but yes, like so many zoos and private collections it fell on hard times and they did not have any money to build bigger enclosures.
Many of the animals were rescued from private collectors who would have put them down had it not been for the CST intervening.
Yes, things could have been better but it was no where near as bad as being made out in the media. Don't believe everything you read. It was set up with good intentions but sadly things fell by the wayside.
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I am sure the rehabilitation for the reputation of Terrence Moore what’s app group is fun if you’re in it and directs you all to wherever this is being discussed.

But when you go out to argue that all this is a lie you’ll find most people can read what happened in court. And lots of people on this particular forum know what good looks like in zoos and collections. Indeed there are experts with a great deal of knowledge of husbandry that goes far beyond, say, mine.

But common sense says it’s wrong to treat animals with homeopathic remedies on the basis of loony conspiracy theories, put them in inadequate accommodation and pile them into a freezer when they die. Wild or domestic, nothing deserves that.

It’s little comfort to have your assurance the cats were ‘often’ looked after. I think you’ll find via the court reporting that often simply wasn’t good enough.

You might find it sad it might be thought you could be implicated in this disgusting situation by enabling it. While I get that would be quite a problem for you, I actually think it’s just sad what happened to the cats.

I’m done replying to people who’ve joined this forum to crusade for something that’s so utterly wrong in zoo / animal keeping terms it’s actually ridiculous.
 
Lafone said:
I am sure the rehabilitation for the reputation of Terrence Moore what’s app group is fun if you’re in it and directs you all to wherever this is being discussed.

But when you go out to argue that all this is a lie you’ll find most people can read what happened in court. And lots of people on this particular forum know what good looks like in zoos and collections. Indeed there are experts with a great deal of knowledge of husbandry that goes far beyond, say, mine.

But common sense says it’s wrong to treat animals with homeopathic remedies on the basis of loony conspiracy theories, put them in inadequate accommodation and pile them into a freezer when they die. Wild or domestic, nothing deserves that.

It’s little comfort to have your assurance the cats were ‘often’ looked after. I think you’ll find via the court reporting that often simply wasn’t good enough.

You might find it sad it might be thought you could be implicated in this disgusting situation by enabling it. While I get that would be quite a problem for you, I actually think it’s just sad what happened to the cats.

I’m done replying to people who’ve joined this forum to crusade for something that’s so utterly wrong in zoo / animal keeping terms it’s actually ridiculous.
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A WhatsApp group? That would be bizarre!

I absolutely do not want to defend Terry's actions and I completely disagree with how he ran certain aspects of the sanctuary including his use of homeopathic remedies. I think over the last few years he has become increasingly delusional.

I also do not argue that all what has been said is a lie. Some aspects have certainly been exaggerated or overlooked.

Personally I am glad that the beautiful individuals in his collection will go to livee their lives in better homes. It is what they deserve.

There are two sides to every story though. A lot of good happened there and whilst I was there they were very well cared for. There was no enabling and a lot of animals were looked after by dedicated and caring volunteers.

I also know of some cats that were frozen after they passed and this was because they were collected by a university to help train veterinarians and for medical research.
 
Laboratory 7 said:
Oh and by the way there used to be another private collection of cats in Welwyn sadly now closed,but the Santiago rare leopard project beat the BCS hands down and that wasn't a zoo and run on a dwal like yourselves but the animals came first and got the best care possible.
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Spot On! (no pun intended!) And it was Santago, not Santiago.;)

I would also like to commend Lafone’s previous 2 entries on this abhorrent subject. Concise and on point.
 
I think that to prevent future problems, all Sanctuaries which house "dangerous wild animals " would have to apply for a zoo licence. How realistic this would be, I have no idea.
Bigcatvolunteer3 said:
A WhatsApp group? That would be bizarre!

I absolutely do not want to defend Terry's actions and I completely disagree with how he ran certain aspects of the sanctuary including his use of homeopathic remedies. I think over the last few years he has become increasingly delusional.

I also do not argue that all what has been said is a lie. Some aspects have certainly been exaggerated or overlooked.

Personally I am glad that the beautiful individuals in his collection will go to livee their lives in better homes. It is what they deserve.

There are two sides to every story though. A lot of good happened there and whilst I was there they were very well cared for. There was no enabling and a lot of animals were looked after by dedicated and caring volunteers.

I also know of some cats that were frozen after they passed and this was because they were collected by a university to help train veterinarians and for medical research.
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Out of interest, the cats that were frozen, were these the ones currently found in freezers, or historically? And which university were they sent to?
 
I'm not blinded, i am speaking on what i saw during my time there, and there was nothing that would justify closing the place down and ordering the killing of the cats, the fact that this could be happening is just unbelievable to me.

a few people on here said that the police said that they had found homes for all the cats, i was just repeating what was said on here, but i really only know the situation up until the point volunteers were allowed, after that I'm just going off of what i read here and on the news. but there was already attempts to rehome some and only a few spaces were found. the reason most are there in the first place is that no one wants them.

I have seen big improvements in the last 10 years, its been slow as all building work was done by volunteers, the place never had any intention to operate as a zoo therefore everything was built for dwa regulation, they also don't bring in the money of a zoo so its not a fair comparison to make.
the state of the place now since the volunteers were prevented from helping was very upsetting to see on the news, it has deteriorated greatly since i was last allowed there, its been under the care of Hertfordshire zoo for months, so why are the cages so dirty and unkept?
 
is there a snow lep and or an amur lep in the mix to be moved as i loved to know. cheers
 
Coopeo said:
This place popped up on Facebook other day and looking at the posts this is Private collection you are referring to

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Thanks for posting this! It looks like a nice place - a bit rustic maybe, as sanctuaries sometimes are, but clearly run by very caring people and the enclosures look a LOT better than what was at the Cat Survival Trust (not saying much admittedly!). I'm seriously impressed by the fact they have taken in eight Pumas, as well as some other cats!

Does anyone on this forum know much about WildSide Exotic Rescue? I'd like to make a donation to help them out, as they seem to have taken more animals from this place than everyone else combined! I will admit I am angry with the wider zoo community - hardly anyone seems to be helping with these poor cats. I guess older animals and those with health issues are easier to forget about!
 
Sand Cat said:
they seem to have taken more animals from this place than everyone else combined! I will admit I am angry with the wider zoo community - hardly anyone seems to be helping with these poor cats. I guess older animals and those with health issues are easier to forget about!
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Very well said. The lack of uptake from other zoos is shocking to say the least.
 
Sand Cat said:
I will admit I am angry with the wider zoo community - hardly anyone seems to be helping with these poor cats. I guess older animals and those with health issues are easier to forget about!
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Perhaps, but it goes both ways and I seriously doubt Moore endeared himself to the wider zoo community over the years. Having said that (and I’ll keep saying it) I’m amazed no one raised the alarm sooner and reported what was going on. This situation doesn’t simply just happen overnight!
 
Panthera1981 said:
Perhaps, but it goes both ways and I seriously doubt Moore endeared himself to the wider zoo community over the years. Having said that (and I’ll keep saying it) I’m amazed no one raised the alarm sooner and reported what was going on. This situation doesn’t simply just happen overnight!
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It does look as though zoos were willing to 'dump'(?) their surplus onto this place when it suited. There is nothing new in this as it has always happened.
Zoos historically have been about the saving of the species, and not necessarily the individual - sometimes at the expense of the individual. Modern conservation requirements still require this.
The difference now of course is that some zoos have positioned themselves as 'rescue centres', most often for bears from foreign countries, or lions from war-zones, or laboratory monkeys. These imports are very often of high box-office value, even if the animals themselves sometimes dont live very long and contribute nothing to conservation, and take up space which could be used for conservation-breeding programmes.
Maybe old, small-cats from England, mixed with a dose of 'dodgy' origins are not as appealing and media worthy?
Perhaps it is best for the individuals, that they are put down, humanely and quickly, rather than spend the rest of their lives in some other place like this, contributing nothing until they eventually have to be euthanased in the end. Few animals, domestic or wild, die peacefully in their beds - for them it is not a matter of when euthanasia is done, it is how it is done that matters.
 
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Strathmorezoo said:
I think that to prevent future problems, all Sanctuaries which house "dangerous wild animals " would have to apply for a zoo licence. How realistic this would be, I have no idea.

Out of interest, the cats that were frozen, were these the ones currently found in freezers, or historically? And which university were they sent to?
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First point is that the ZLA would have to go back to Parliament for a basic re-write as zoos are specifically open to the public for 8 days or more in any calendar year. Places with membership only visits or fewer open days are not classed as zoos. Your point is logical, and all of the so-called sanctuaries I have seen personally would be closed down immediately if subjected to a zoo licence inspection.
Second point is that after pm and before disposal, it would be perfectly routine and normal to keep such material frozen, indeed it is the only method for storing such.
 
Panthera1981 said:
Perhaps, but it goes both ways and I seriously doubt Moore endeared himself to the wider zoo community over the years. Having said that (and I’ll keep saying it) I’m amazed no one raised the alarm sooner and reported what was going on. This situation doesn’t simply just happen overnight!
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I’m also under the impression that his cats have been temporarily loaned for breeding by some collections in the past. Wouldn’t be totally surprised if Paradise/Hertfordshire was one of them.
 
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ZooNews2024 said:
The difference now of course is that some zoos have positioned themselves as 'rescue centres', most often for bears from foreign countries, or lions from war-zones, or laboratory monkeys. These imports are very often of high box-office value, even if the animals themselves sometimes dont live very long and contribute nothing to conservation, and take up space which could be used for conservation-breeding programmes.
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With a not-insubstantial number of the zoological collections in question using the fact they have obtained these animals as a way to claim they are somehow "better" than other zoos, or indeed justification for the old chestnut of claiming they aren't a "zoo" at all but rather an *insert PR-friendly term here* thinking this will somehow work on the anti-zoo mob!

It never does :p:rolleyes:
 
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